Image ImageImage Image

Patrick Lee Williams Comps?

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper

User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 49,420
And1: 9,235
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#161 » by dougthonus » Sun May 2, 2021 10:13 pm

DuckIII wrote:Chandler Hutchison could not execute a cone dribble at one of my 5th grade basketball practices and was a “zero level” scorer. Couldn’t hit threes, had no mid range game, and is one of the worst finishers I’ve ever seen unless it was a dunk. He also had no left hand and I’m not sure I ever saw him pass the ball unless it was a two hand swing pass. What are you talking about?


We'll see how it goes with Williams, I don't want to be too down on him, but he has an average 1st step, his only somewhat advanced shooting move is a pull up mid range jumper, and his release is so slow from outside that he can only shoot when wide, wide open. I've not seen him do anything that makes me think he is an advanced ball handler or passer. He's average at best as a SF prospect in those areas, maybe a bit above as a PF prospect.

There are things I like about him as a prospect. I don't think he's awful at anything, and so if by all the tools, you mean he has a good base to work with, sure, he has a base to work with, but to be an elite player you need to be elite at things. Most guys whom become elite players are elite at something going in, even if that thing is just athleticism. I don't see him having any elite skills.

There are guys like Butler or Kawhi, whom were really good athletes, but not elite ones, that became elite players anyway, but that feels like a much less likely story than the guys whom were just super elite athletes or guys whom had some crazy elite skill right away.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
GoBlue72391
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,826
And1: 1,500
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#162 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 11:26 pm

DuckIII wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.

Like what? He's not an elite athlete and his lateral quickness is notably worse than what it should be for a player of his archetype. He's not a standout shooter, finisher, ball handler, or passer. He has prototypical size and length for a modern 3/4, but other than that, what are these tools you're referring to?


Half court handle going both left and right. Open court handle. Half court passing from the perimeter and off the dribble. Scores at all three levels. Finishes out to 6 feet with both his left and his right.

His lateral quickness is not an issue, it’s his awareness and anticipation that need work. His open court north south speed is excellent for his size. He has a high end combination of size, strength, length, speed and quick leap vertical. Though only strength is independently elite, the combination is unusual and only prototypical in the sense that you want to have it. Not that it’s normal to have. He can rebound in traffic, poke away balls off the dribble and jump passing lanes.

There is virtually nothing he has not shown, through physical traits and demonstrated skills, that he cannot do. That he does not have the ability to do.

The question is mentally will he get there and does he have the motor. The intangibles. And I’m openly concerned he may not. But everything else is there.

He’s not a Derrick Rose level freak. But he’s the closest thing we’ve had to that type of prospect since Rose and before Rose for quite some time. It’s all there.

But it all being realized is a whole other issue.

If you're saying he'll be able to do everything at an adequate level, I would probably agree. But I question if he'll ever standout in any area. A jack of all trades, master of none. Those type of players usually end up as solid role players or low end all-stars like Luol Deng rather than true stars or superstars. Nothing wrong with that. That would be a damn good pick, especially in what is a weak draft overall.
GoBlue72391
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,826
And1: 1,500
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#163 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun May 2, 2021 11:30 pm

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:He has every tool. Every single one on both sides of the court. The only thing he has not shown is a post up game.


Not sure what you mean by "he has every tool". He doesn't stand out as a shooter, ball handler, passer, or burst athlete relative to other prospects his age.

He's not a great ball handler, passer, or shooter. He's not awful at any of those things, but if you count just being decent at something showing you have the tools, then a heck of a lot of players have all the tools. Chandler Hutchison had all the tools by this definition.


Chandler Hutchison could not execute a cone dribble at one of my 5th grade basketball practices and was a “zero level” scorer. Couldn’t hit threes, had no mid range game, and is one of the worst finishers I’ve ever seen unless it was a dunk. He also had no left hand and I’m not sure I ever saw him pass the ball unless it was a two hand swing pass. What are you talking about?

The discussion was about tools, not skills. Clearly Hutch lacks skills. He sucks, honestly. But he has the tools, namely athleticism and length, that you look for. He has better length than PWill and he's arguably a superior athlete. His lateral quickness is unarguably better IMO.

PWill is clearly more skilled than Hutch, but in terms of tools, they're comparable. I have no doubt PWill will be a much better player than Hutch, so don't mistake me for saying otherwise.
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 63,465
And1: 26,334
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#164 » by DuckIII » Sun May 2, 2021 11:58 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "he has every tool". He doesn't stand out as a shooter, ball handler, passer, or burst athlete relative to other prospects his age.

He's not a great ball handler, passer, or shooter. He's not awful at any of those things, but if you count just being decent at something showing you have the tools, then a heck of a lot of players have all the tools. Chandler Hutchison had all the tools by this definition.


Chandler Hutchison could not execute a cone dribble at one of my 5th grade basketball practices and was a “zero level” scorer. Couldn’t hit threes, had no mid range game, and is one of the worst finishers I’ve ever seen unless it was a dunk. He also had no left hand and I’m not sure I ever saw him pass the ball unless it was a two hand swing pass. What are you talking about?

The discussion was about tools, not skills. Clearly Hutch lacks skills. He sucks, honestly. But he has the tools, namely athleticism and length, that you look for. He has better length than PWill and he's arguably a superior athlete. His lateral quickness is unarguably better IMO.

PWill is clearly more skilled than Hutch, but in terms of tools, they're comparable. I have no doubt PWill will be a much better player than Hutch, so don't mistake me for saying otherwise.


When I say tools I mean skills. When I say physical traits I’m referring to ability/athleticism.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
Wingy
General Manager
Posts: 9,714
And1: 1,473
Joined: Feb 15, 2007

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#165 » by Wingy » Mon May 3, 2021 4:54 pm

While I don't see much in terms of "eliteness" from Pat, I'm similarly (but not exactly) aligned w/Duck in that I don't see any glaring, irreparable weaknesses either. I think with experience (game slowing down), physical training, and skill work - he has the ability to be at least solid in just about all areas and in some (and maybe quite a few), I'd expect him to become strong. The other night, he surprised me by getting his feet set much faster than normal, and getting the shot off (and he made it as the ultimate bonus). I know there aren't a ton of "in season" signs like that, but there are some.

As for the famed work ethic, I'd agree there are a lot of puff pieces about a lot of guys. What gives me some hope w/Pat is that the usual stories were there, but those were combined w/a number of hoops fanatics here noting they saw visible differences in footage around the draft/summer compared to his FSU days only months earlier. Maybe those folks were overselling it, but that's the context that adds to the perception of his work ethic.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 49,420
And1: 9,235
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#166 » by dougthonus » Mon May 3, 2021 5:03 pm

Wingy wrote:While I don't see much in terms of "eliteness" from Pat, I'm similarly (but not exactly) aligned w/Duck in that I don't see any glaring, irreparable weaknesses either. I think with experience (game slowing down), physical training, and skill work - he has the ability to be at least solid in just about all areas and in some (and maybe quite a few), I'd expect him to become strong. The other night, he surprised me by getting his feet set much faster than normal, and getting the shot off (and he made it as the ultimate bonus). I know there aren't a ton of "in season" signs like that, but there are some.


I agree with this.

As for the famed work ethic, I'd agree there are a lot of puff pieces about a lot of guys. What gives me some hope w/Pat is that the usual stories were there, but those were combined w/a number of hoops fanatics here noting they saw visible differences in footage around the draft/summer compared to his FSU days only months earlier. Maybe those folks were overselling it, but that's the context that adds to the perception of his work ethic.


One of the things I think about stuff like this is that unless he just came to basketball recently or just started working hard recently then why are his skills not amongst the best already? Either he isn't working as hard as other guys or it doesn't come to him as naturally as other guys. Either way, it is usually dangerous to project a greater improvement for one guy vs another based on perceived work ethic.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
User avatar
Leslie Forman
General Manager
Posts: 9,717
And1: 5,641
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Location: 1700 Center Dr, Ames, IA 50011

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#167 » by Leslie Forman » Mon May 3, 2021 5:21 pm

To be fair, Jimmy Butler is obviously one of the hardest workers in the league yet also one of the latest bloomers.
meekrab
Head Coach
Posts: 6,245
And1: 3,770
Joined: Dec 15, 2014

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#168 » by meekrab » Mon May 3, 2021 5:41 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:To be fair, Jimmy Butler is obviously one of the hardest workers in the league yet also one of the latest bloomers.

Got red-shirted as a freshman, played behind Hamilton and Deng his second year but even then you saw flashes of what he could be, got hurt in year 3, but was a star from then on... granted age 25 is "old" for your breakout season but that's what happens when you're a 30th pick for a team focused on the postseason.
Wingy
General Manager
Posts: 9,714
And1: 1,473
Joined: Feb 15, 2007

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#169 » by Wingy » Mon May 3, 2021 6:02 pm

dougthonus wrote:One of the things I think about stuff like this is that unless he just came to basketball recently or just started working hard recently then why are his skills not amongst the best already? Either he isn't working as hard as other guys or it doesn't come to him as naturally as other guys. Either way, it is usually dangerous to project a greater improvement for one guy vs another based on perceived work ethic.


As you know, obviously hard to say, but natural to wonder. It's quite possible the hard work switch just recently flipped, and while one might wish that was fully initiated from the start, I don't think it's damning (if it is the case at all). If you're a lottery pick, even in a weak draft, you're pretty dominant at the h.s. level. It's easy to see why one might not be working as hard early. Then there's the way a guy trains in refining their game the way a pro does. A kid could be getting up hundreds of shots...over a thousand a day, etc. thinking they're working their butt off - but maybe that's just going about it their usual way (e.g. - Pat's slower setup & release) that's not even close to ideal from an NBA perspective.

Maybe a year on the bench at FSU, and hearing about his potential from real NBA people was a wake up call to train more, or train the right way once he got high level coaching, and resources. We can only hope he's ready to work his tail off moving forward.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 17,504
And1: 6,690
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#170 » by MrSparkle » Mon May 3, 2021 7:03 pm

Is Pat really 215 pounds? Cause he looks heavier.

For a guy who hasn't hit a real NBA off-season of training and conditioning, and frankly looks like he's still got baby fat, we all have to admit he's well-suited to take contact. Guys bounce off him like a wall.

Judging by what I've read and heard from guys like Beverley, Kawhi is super ripped. Getting a shoulder from him is like running into a knife.

So the other side of this, is he certainly has room to get in better shape and become more explosive.

I'll say the same in regards to Coby. That's the main thing I notice with these Bulls players. Whatever weight training regiments they've done, they haven't been effective. Obviously they're young. But we must have the weakest (physically) roster in the entire league, sans Poku. The way Theis works through contact, he looks like the Terminator in comparison to all our young players. Felicio is like a big marshmallow bed that invites you to charge into him. Lauri's biceps look like Drago's until you realize his vegan diet allows you to bull-doze him. Even an older guy like Valentine. He has a frame that could add some strength; he's a good rebounder, and obviously could do some damage with the ball. But he looks like paper mâché.
BahamaBull
General Manager
Posts: 7,938
And1: 1,916
Joined: Dec 13, 2005
Location: Bahamas
 

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#171 » by BahamaBull » Mon May 3, 2021 7:12 pm

I expect Pat to become a good player not great though...

Somewhere between Marvin Williams and Luol Deng.
I was Dingdeng / McBuckets3
Ice Man
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 22,484
And1: 10,937
Joined: Apr 19, 2011

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#172 » by Ice Man » Mon May 3, 2021 7:15 pm

One thing to be said for Patrick's athleticism/upside is that he had a lot of steals in his one college season. More per 40 minutes than any other 2020 rookie drafted in the Top 10, slightly more than Jimmy Butler did in his first Marquette season, more than Jaylen Brown did when at Cal. PWill matched Kawhi's freshman rate. As college steals are often an indicator of athleticism + court awareness that translates to NBA success, that is a promising sign.

I just looked up DWade's first year at Marquette. Oh my. Talk about an athlete ... wow.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 49,420
And1: 9,235
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#173 » by dougthonus » Mon May 3, 2021 8:25 pm

Wingy wrote:As you know, obviously hard to say, but natural to wonder. It's quite possible the hard work switch just recently flipped, and while one might wish that was fully initiated from the start, I don't think it's damning (if it is the case at all). If you're a lottery pick, even in a weak draft, you're pretty dominant at the h.s. level. It's easy to see why one might not be working as hard early. Then there's the way a guy trains in refining their game the way a pro does. A kid could be getting up hundreds of shots...over a thousand a day, etc. thinking they're working their butt off - but maybe that's just going about it their usual way (e.g. - Pat's slower setup & release) that's not even close to ideal from an NBA perspective.

Maybe a year on the bench at FSU, and hearing about his potential from real NBA people was a wake up call to train more, or train the right way once he got high level coaching, and resources. We can only hope he's ready to work his tail off moving forward.


Anything is possible. Again, I just think it is dangerous to think "this guy has a great work ethic and will improve more than the next guy" because that improvement should already be in his game if that is true. Where I think one guy has more potential to improve is based on athletic traits. If each guy improves X%, the guy whom is more athletic can take advantage of that improvement more.

Williams may have a bit of that, he's a better than average (though I don't think elite) athlete. Maybe with Williams there is a bit of "just learn to be aggressive and the skills will show up more" because he hasn't applied them as much in game context as others.

I don't mean my comment to mean he can't get a lot better. I just don't read much into these stories since they exist about probably 70% of the prospects anyway and likely are largely true because elite prospects probably are generally working harder than other guys. Hence them being elite prospects. It's also the case that the vast majority of the time people sharing these stories are heavily biased towards the prospect as well.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
User avatar
Leslie Forman
General Manager
Posts: 9,717
And1: 5,641
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Location: 1700 Center Dr, Ames, IA 50011

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#174 » by Leslie Forman » Tue May 4, 2021 2:04 am

Instead of trying to think of raw wing draftees that did absolutely nothing at first then blew up, I was trying to think of more physically similar combo forward-types that were just seen as athletically low ceiling, "eh he's OK" type guys who just gradually kept improving and eventually reached a high level, whether it was through college or the pros.

I ended up thinking that maybe Danny Granger should be the archetype. Physically similar, and such a late bloomer he wasn't even a top 100 high school player or a starter as a freshman for an absolutely awful mid-major team until halfway in the season. Hell, even though he came into the league as a four year senior, he wasn't really that much more productive than Pat as a rookie.



Not a single explosive, quick twitch "wow" move. No triple crossover euro step 360 no scope hesi step back jimbo stuff. Lots of opportunistic buckets, and some strength-based stuff inside. I think this may be a little closer to what Pat can be turned into instead of some super dynamic do everything type like a Jimmy or Kawhi.

Or maybe he is just Marvin Williams. Who the hell knows.
ZOMG
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,312
And1: 3,187
Joined: Dec 31, 2013

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#175 » by ZOMG » Tue May 4, 2021 6:05 am

Image
Current status: ACTIVE
Former status: BANNED FOR DERAILING DISCUSSION
GoBlue72391
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,826
And1: 1,500
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#176 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:38 am

ZOMG wrote:Image

He's a VLC media player? Tbh I can see the comparison. He's versatile, well rounded, can play virtually any position, just like the VLC player is versatile, well rounded, and can play virtually any type of media file. They both contribute on both ends, with PWill providing both offense and defense and VLC bringing superior video and sound quality. A bit under the radar and perhaps not as well known as their contemporaries like, say LaMelo or Windows Media Player, but can make just as big of an impact.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 49,420
And1: 9,235
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#177 » by dougthonus » Tue May 4, 2021 1:33 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:Instead of trying to think of raw wing draftees that did absolutely nothing at first then blew up, I was trying to think of more physically similar combo forward-types that were just seen as athletically low ceiling, "eh he's OK" type guys who just gradually kept improving and eventually reached a high level, whether it was through college or the pros.

I ended up thinking that maybe Danny Granger should be the archetype. Physically similar, and such a late bloomer he wasn't even a top 100 high school player or a starter as a freshman for an absolutely awful mid-major team until halfway in the season. Hell, even though he came into the league as a four year senior, he wasn't really that much more productive than Pat as a rookie.



Not a single explosive, quick twitch "wow" move. No triple crossover euro step 360 no scope hesi step back jimbo stuff. Lots of opportunistic buckets, and some strength-based stuff inside. I think this may be a little closer to what Pat can be turned into instead of some super dynamic do everything type like a Jimmy or Kawhi.

Or maybe he is just Marvin Williams. Who the hell knows.


Paul George is probably another guy that is a reasonable comparison.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
AshyLarrysDiaper
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 14,165
And1: 5,464
Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Location: Oakland

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#178 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Tue May 4, 2021 5:21 pm

Danny Granger might the best upside comp I've seen. I like Pat's tools more, but it fits pretty damn well.
Contribute to the "Fire GarPax" billboard here:
https://www.gofundme.com/3v7fc-let-our-voices-be-heard-firegarpax
Ice Man
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 22,484
And1: 10,937
Joined: Apr 19, 2011

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#179 » by Ice Man » Tue May 4, 2021 5:39 pm

dougthonus wrote:Paul George is probably another guy that is a reasonable comparison.


Not my by eye test. PG was *the* wing athlete of his draft, hands down. I don't put Pat in that same athletic camp. Now Granger or Butler, sure.
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 15,924
And1: 2,250
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: Patrick Lee Williams Comps? 

Post#180 » by Michael Jackson » Tue May 4, 2021 5:45 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:Instead of trying to think of raw wing draftees that did absolutely nothing at first then blew up, I was trying to think of more physically similar combo forward-types that were just seen as athletically low ceiling, "eh he's OK" type guys who just gradually kept improving and eventually reached a high level, whether it was through college or the pros.

I ended up thinking that maybe Danny Granger should be the archetype. Physically similar, and such a late bloomer he wasn't even a top 100 high school player or a starter as a freshman for an absolutely awful mid-major team until halfway in the season. Hell, even though he came into the league as a four year senior, he wasn't really that much more productive than Pat as a rookie.



Not a single explosive, quick twitch "wow" move. No triple crossover euro step 360 no scope hesi step back jimbo stuff. Lots of opportunistic buckets, and some strength-based stuff inside. I think this may be a little closer to what Pat can be turned into instead of some super dynamic do everything type like a Jimmy or Kawhi.

Or maybe he is just Marvin Williams. Who the hell knows.


Paul George is probably another guy that is a reasonable comparison.


PG seems a lot more fluid, laterally quick and athletic. I see what you are getting at though. I like the grainger comp.

Return to Chicago Bulls