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OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins

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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#681 » by Jeffster81 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 7:12 am

Dresden wrote:Supposedly Bears have told Dalton he will be week 1 starter.


Dalton is not stupid. He knows teams that draft a QB in the 1st rd just for them to sit (except on rare occasions). He knows even if he wins the job out of training camp, his leash will not be long. Let's face facts Pace/Nagy future in Chicago rest on the development of Fields and Justin cannot developed on the bench.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#682 » by nitetrain8603 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 2:37 pm

Jeffster81 wrote:
Dresden wrote:Supposedly Bears have told Dalton he will be week 1 starter.


Dalton is not stupid. He knows teams that draft a QB in the 1st rd just for them to sit (except on rare occasions). He knows even if he wins the job out of training camp, his leash will not be long. Let's face facts Pace/Nagy future in Chicago rest on the development of Fields and Justin cannot developed on the bench.


Why not? Aaron Rodgers was. I think Bears fans are putting their personal interests over the development of their QB. They should not do that. There are things Justin needs to develop such as processing the play quicker.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#683 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 2:56 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:Why not? Aaron Rodgers was. I think Bears fans are putting their personal interests over the development of their QB. They should not do that. There are things Justin needs to develop such as processing the play quicker.


I think all fans personal interests are what is best for the Bears / Fields long term. People disagree pretty strongly on whether that is starting right away or not, but I think every single person here would choose the option that gives the best long term outcome if they knew conclusively what that option is.

To me, I think best long term option is to start Fields day one and let him learn by doing. That said, I don't think it will be irreparably harmful to start him in game six or ten or even next year. I just think it will delay his development by about 50-60% of the total time he sits (ie, 16 games of sitting out delays his development by 8-9 games, he still learns some by not playing, just not as much).

That said, my opinion may be a bunch of horsesh-t. :lol:
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#684 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:10 pm

I'm fully on board for him not starting the season.

Week 1, rookie left tackle, 3+ months for master preparation coach Sean McVay to study the Bears, and the best defensive player in the league lining up across the snap?

There is info on QBs that started immediately and it failed spectacularly because they started before they were ready, or before the team was ready.

No thanks, let Dalton deal with that. I think that 1st week is a big loss, regardless of who is QB.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#685 » by Jcool0 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:59 pm

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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#686 » by Jeffster81 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:22 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:
Dresden wrote:Supposedly Bears have told Dalton he will be week 1 starter.


Dalton is not stupid. He knows teams that draft a QB in the 1st rd just for them to sit (except on rare occasions). He knows even if he wins the job out of training camp, his leash will not be long. Let's face facts Pace/Nagy future in Chicago rest on the development of Fields and Justin cannot developed on the bench.


Why not? Aaron Rodgers was. I think Bears fans are putting their personal interests over the development of their QB. They should not do that. There are things Justin needs to develop such as processing the play quicker.


The Packers had some guy name Brett Favre on the, otherwise Rodgers would have started. There are those first rounders that need to be sit and slowly developed (ie Trubisky), but Rodgers was a two year starter who was poised to go #1 that year (and he should have). Do you think the 49ers would have sat him? Remember they had Cody Pickett and Ken Dorsey on the roster.

I'm not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if Fields is your best player at the position then he needs to play. Neither Foles or Dalton will be here long term so waste rep's on either guy?
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#687 » by Jcool0 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:30 pm

Jeffster81 wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:
Dalton is not stupid. He knows teams that draft a QB in the 1st rd just for them to sit (except on rare occasions). He knows even if he wins the job out of training camp, his leash will not be long. Let's face facts Pace/Nagy future in Chicago rest on the development of Fields and Justin cannot developed on the bench.


Why not? Aaron Rodgers was. I think Bears fans are putting their personal interests over the development of their QB. They should not do that. There are things Justin needs to develop such as processing the play quicker.


The Packers had some guy name Brett Favre on the, otherwise Rodgers would have started. There are those first rounders that need to be sit and slowly developed (ie Trubisky), but Rodgers was a two year starter who was poised to go #1 that year (and he should have). Do you think the 49ers would have sat him? Remember they had Cody Pickett and Ken Dorsey on the roster.

I'm not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if Fields is your best player at the position then he needs to play. Neither Foles or Dalton will be here long term so waste rep's on either guy?


FWIW If the 49ers take Rodgers #1 that year he at best becomes a journeyman backup and is probably out of the league by now. GB put him into "QB school" for 2 years and completely rebuilt him while not having to play him. The person who started in GB was not the guy GB drafted. 49ers were a complete mess and would of thrown him out in day 1 and he would of gotten killed. Still amazes me Alex Smith made it through what he did and ended up with a pretty good career.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#688 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 7:20 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:There is info on QBs that started immediately and it failed spectacularly because they started before they were ready, or before the team was ready.


I posted early in this thread the full list of QBs that started day 1, and in general, they seem more successful to me than those that didn't, and the ones that failed didn't strike me as a group of guys that were going to go be successful if they had only been groomed on the sidelines longer.

I don't think there's any real evidence that sitting helps you at all.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#689 » by CjayC » Fri Jun 4, 2021 10:15 pm

I’m not for handing Fields the job, but when training comes around if he looks like the better man, or even equivalent, to me there’s no reason for him to sit. It won’t show in camp, but his legs will be a godsend for an Oline that’s, on paper, iffy at best.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#691 » by Hold That » Fri Jun 4, 2021 11:28 pm

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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#692 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat Jun 5, 2021 12:39 am

dougthonus wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:There is info on QBs that started immediately and it failed spectacularly because they started before they were ready, or before the team was ready.


I posted early in this thread the full list of QBs that started day 1, and in general, they seem more successful to me than those that didn't, and the ones that failed didn't strike me as a group of guys that were going to go be successful if they had only been groomed on the sidelines longer.

I don't think there's any real evidence that sitting helps you at all.



I don’t think listing out past situations is that meaningful. There are just too many factors involved. Maybe a good chunk of the guys that sat out, were just simply bad, and no amount of learning from the sideline was going to help them.

I guess I’ll phrase it this way. I don’t think there is any way that sitting can HURT a players development. It may prolong it, like you’ve noted, but it wouldn’t hurt it.

On the flip side, I do think if a QB starts before they are ready, or starts behind a bad offensive line, it could absolutely hurt a QBs development. I think it’s probably fairly rare, but it does happen.

I’d like to avoid that small chance, because I don’t think it costs the Bears much. Outside of the immediate gratification of getting to see the shiny new toy.

Now, if Fields look like an unstoppable force and Dalton is tripping over himself, then you probably have to start Fields or you’re gonna lose your locker room. But I don’t expect that.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#693 » by nitetrain8603 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 1:07 am

Jeffster81 wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:
Dalton is not stupid. He knows teams that draft a QB in the 1st rd just for them to sit (except on rare occasions). He knows even if he wins the job out of training camp, his leash will not be long. Let's face facts Pace/Nagy future in Chicago rest on the development of Fields and Justin cannot developed on the bench.


Why not? Aaron Rodgers was. I think Bears fans are putting their personal interests over the development of their QB. They should not do that. There are things Justin needs to develop such as processing the play quicker.


The Packers had some guy name Brett Favre on the, otherwise Rodgers would have started. There are those first rounders that need to be sit and slowly developed (ie Trubisky), but Rodgers was a two year starter who was poised to go #1 that year (and he should have). Do you think the 49ers would have sat him? Remember they had Cody Pickett and Ken Dorsey on the roster.

I'm not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if Fields is your best player at the position then he needs to play. Neither Foles or Dalton will be here long term so waste rep's on either guy?


My point is, no one here knows that. Also, Rodgers thing is hindsight. He was seen as another Joe Tedford QB from Cal which were known busts. There's a reason why he dropped. Same goes for Fields. Fields should have to prove himself before we get blanket statements of "Just let him start the season." Guy hasn't even been thru summer camp yet.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#694 » by nitetrain8603 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 1:08 am

Jcool0 wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
Why not? Aaron Rodgers was. I think Bears fans are putting their personal interests over the development of their QB. They should not do that. There are things Justin needs to develop such as processing the play quicker.


The Packers had some guy name Brett Favre on the, otherwise Rodgers would have started. There are those first rounders that need to be sit and slowly developed (ie Trubisky), but Rodgers was a two year starter who was poised to go #1 that year (and he should have). Do you think the 49ers would have sat him? Remember they had Cody Pickett and Ken Dorsey on the roster.

I'm not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if Fields is your best player at the position then he needs to play. Neither Foles or Dalton will be here long term so waste rep's on either guy?


FWIW If the 49ers take Rodgers #1 that year he at best becomes a journeyman backup and is probably out of the league by now. GB put him into "QB school" for 2 years and completely rebuilt him while not having to play him. The person who started in GB was not the guy GB drafted. 49ers were a complete mess and would of thrown him out in day 1 and he would of gotten killed. Still amazes me Alex Smith made it through what he did and ended up with a pretty good career.


Agreed. Many people thought Alex Smith was a bust until he got to KC. He was mediocre as mediocre could be in SF. And he always had talent. Look at his scouting profile dating back to high school.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#695 » by Licensed to Il » Sat Jun 5, 2021 2:20 am

Part time football coach here, Bears fan for life. Best thing the Bears can do is “redshirt” Fields the first month. There is a sophistication to the nfl not seen in college (pros retain more info, coaches work harder, etc). Josh struggled the Indiana game because IU gave him some new coverage shells, some decoy blitzes, real NFL stuff. Bears should sit him and let him absorb all that till about week 6. Then, if he is ready, turn him loose. No downside to easing him in.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#696 » by Jeffster81 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 2:38 am

Jcool0 wrote:FWIW If the 49ers take Rodgers #1 that year he at best becomes a journeyman backup and is probably out of the league by now. GB put him into "QB school" for 2 years and completely rebuilt him while not having to play him. The person who started in GB was not the guy GB drafted. 49ers were a complete mess and would of thrown him out in day 1 and he would of gotten killed. Still amazes me Alex Smith made it through what he did and ended up with a pretty good career.


You do not know that. Maybe he does become a journeyman had he went to the 49ers or maybe he still become a legendary HOF QB.

Again, I am not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if he proves to be the best QB on the team he needs to play, period.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#697 » by dougthonus » Sat Jun 5, 2021 2:57 am

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:[
I don’t think listing out past situations is that meaningful. There are just too many factors involved. Maybe a good chunk of the guys that sat out, were just simply bad, and no amount of learning from the sideline was going to help them.


The reverse of this argument is true too, which gets down to the total numbers don't seem to indicate that starting early hurts you at all if you just look at the results, so you probably shouldn't quote the numbers saying that they do. It just isn't true. I don't think the reverse is necessarily true either.

As you noted lots of factors involved in success and it is a fools errand to try and guess what any given player would have done in a totally different situation. You could never really know, and if the numbers don't bare out one way being conclusively better with large sample sizes than the safest assumption is probably that it simply doesn't matter long term.

I guess I’ll phrase it this way. I don’t think there is any way that sitting can HURT a players development. It may prolong it, like you’ve noted, but it wouldn’t hurt it.

On the flip side, I do think if a QB starts before they are ready, or starts behind a bad offensive line, it could absolutely hurt a QBs development. I think it’s probably fairly rare, but it does happen.


First, prolonging development is perhaps a pretty big deal. Let's say Fields takes one extra year to develop, and he's a stud in year 3 instead of year 2. You only have him on that rookie deal for a few years, so gaining one extra year of stud play on a cheap deal is really valuable from a salary cap perspectivel

Secondly, there's really no reason to believe one thing is harmful and the other can't be harmful. Maybe a guy that doesn't start gets pissed off and less motivated and bitter and then doesn't work out for his franchise because of it. Probably the case that if he's that type of player it wouldn't work anyway, but maybe it would have. Who knows?

It's just as plausible as saying a guy who's played competitive football for half his like is going to be permanently shell shocked because he took too many sacks and will never get over it even if you fix the offensive line the next year. That type of player also likely wouldn't be the type that's going to deal with adversity and be great in different circumstances.

That said, all of this is just "belief" stuff, there isn't really any evidence being put forward here. It's just people theorizing what they think might be true with no real basis (and I include myself in this group). In that vein, I'm not really going to be too upset no matter what happens. I don't have high hopes for the Bears this season regardless of whether Fields starts.

I'd rather have him get his lumps out of the way in this season which I think is likely a dead season than have to get them all out of the way next season. That said, if he starts in week 6, I don't think anything meaningful will be lost.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#698 » by Licensed to Il » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:54 am

I’d also say (In addition to mental reps and saturating himself in nfl verbiage and defensive looks) there would be value sitting Fields because it would allow Nagy and staff to build a base of what this personnel group does well. Let the Oline gel, figure out our best run game blocking combo, get some tape out there of Mooney running past safeties.. then bring Fields in week 6, 7, or 8.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#699 » by Hold That » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:56 am

Jeffster81 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:FWIW If the 49ers take Rodgers #1 that year he at best becomes a journeyman backup and is probably out of the league by now. GB put him into "QB school" for 2 years and completely rebuilt him while not having to play him. The person who started in GB was not the guy GB drafted. 49ers were a complete mess and would of thrown him out in day 1 and he would of gotten killed. Still amazes me Alex Smith made it through what he did and ended up with a pretty good career.


You do not know that. Maybe he does become a journeyman had he went to the 49ers or maybe he still become a legendary HOF QB.

Again, I am not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if he proves to be the best QB on the team he needs to play, period.

Exactly and Justin Fields isn’t being evaluated against HOF QB Brett Favre.
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Re: OT: Bears Talk - Justin Fields era begins 

Post#700 » by Jeffster81 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:09 am

Hold That wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:FWIW If the 49ers take Rodgers #1 that year he at best becomes a journeyman backup and is probably out of the league by now. GB put him into "QB school" for 2 years and completely rebuilt him while not having to play him. The person who started in GB was not the guy GB drafted. 49ers were a complete mess and would of thrown him out in day 1 and he would of gotten killed. Still amazes me Alex Smith made it through what he did and ended up with a pretty good career.


You do not know that. Maybe he does become a journeyman had he went to the 49ers or maybe he still become a legendary HOF QB.

Again, I am not saying hand Fields the job, I'm saying if he proves to be the best QB on the team he needs to play, period.

Exactly and Justin Fields isn’t being evaluated against HOF QB Brett Favre.


Thank you.

The idea that your best QB should be sat because they need to "learn" behind veteran QB is an outdated idea. The only thing a young QB is going to learn behind a vet QB like Dalton is how to be mediocre. If Fields is the best QB in the camp, which I suspect he will be, he needs to start. None of this "sit behind the vet BS."
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