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Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF

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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#21 » by dougthonus » Mon May 17, 2021 12:15 am

Am2626 wrote:
dice wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Maybe the Bulls will retire his jersey now? How you gonna have a HOF player whose NBA prime was with your team, and not retire his number? Come on Bulls.

well, if MJ hadn't returned from retirement we wouldn't even be having this conversation, so...

that he was a major contributor to 3 title teams certainly makes it a consideration, though

horace grant, a significantly larger contributor to 3 other title teams, doesn't have his number retired by the bulls. THAT is an outrage given that chucker bob love's number is retired

but anyway...toni was long overdue to be in the basketball HOF. not only did he have an amazing career in europe and a good nba career, but he helped transition the nba to an international league


Bob Love has no business having his Jersey being retired. There are probably 10 guys that contributed more to the Bulls and had better Careers. What about Artis Gilmore. He’s in the Hall of Fame and doesn’t have his Jersey Retired from any team.


At the time of Love's jersey retirement, how many retired players meant more to Chicago? Regardless of how good Gilmore was, the Gilmore era Bulls were generally poor and only finished over .500 once while he was with the team if I eyeballed it correctly. The Love era Bulls were very good consistently.

I think that makes a huge difference for jersey retirements. Maybe you can argue that Norm or Chet meant more to those teams, I have no idea, I sure never watched any of them play outside of a few highlight reels, but Love was the leading scorer of those good teams and probably generally viewed as the best player at the time.

I could argue at the time of his jersey retirement, Love was maybe the most important currently retired Bull, considerably more important than Sloan whom already had his retired. If I were going to pick on one of those two, it'd probably be Jerry Sloan before Bob Love, but I don't really know that much about how guys felt about players in the era.

By current standards, I think someone like Derrick Rose has a better case than Bob Love or Jerry Sloan, even guys like Rodman, Kukoc, Grant, and Noah would have similar cases to those guys IMO.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#22 » by Wingy » Mon May 17, 2021 12:32 am

dougthonus wrote:
BeKuK wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
I would prefer they had just an NBA HOF to be honest.


Chris Webber only played in the NBA......why does he deserves to be in the HOF.....over Toni ( minus euro Basketball)?

Just curious...


Chris Webber was a dramatically better player than Kukoc. He was a five time all-star and was likely a top 10 player for a good 5-6 year chunk of his career. He received MVP votes in five separate seasons.

Again, I love Toni, he was a really good player, but he was not an all-time great player or even close by NBA standards. I guess it's fine as a trailblazer type award for early European players. Vlade Divac is in on the same general principle, but I wouldn't put him in either.


All your logic makes 100% total sense.

However.

-1 BUTTON!!! :lol:

I won’t argue this passionately because I don’t care that much about who’s in, but it’s the Hall of “Fame,” not Hall of Best Players...or Hall of Greatness. While it’s mostly the latter, I don’t mind honoring these types of players/contributors. I don’t think it diminishes the accomplishments of the true legends one bit.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#23 » by kulaz3000 » Mon May 17, 2021 1:07 am

Mk0 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I like Toni Kukoc, but I hate players who get in because they were great due to contributions in lesser leagues. Might as well add J.J. Redick to the HOF for being a great scorer at Duke.

If a good chunk of your career is in the NBA, and you are a zero time all-star, you shouldn't be a HOFer. If you don't have a good chunk of your career in the NBA, you should have done something absolutely otherworldly in another league or contributed in some way way beyond your peers off the court.

Kukoc played his entire prime in the NBA, 12 total seasons, and was what at his best? Top 50? Maybe? Probably not even that.

Feel free to create a -1 button and kill me with it :lol:

-1. Nothing personal but your post is stupid and I hate it.


Have a little respect.

You don't say something is not personal, and then proceed to call it stupid.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#24 » by kulaz3000 » Mon May 17, 2021 1:10 am

Lexluthor wrote:If Toni Kukoc made the Hall of Fame you might as well add Lamar Odom and Robert Horry. Toni was a good player but he did not live up to the hype. He was still a younger when he joined the bulls


Didn't live up to the hype?

He played his prime when he was playing with 3 first ballot hall of famers in Jordan, Pippen and Rodman, and still played a crucial role in winning the 3 championships. Without Toni, I'm not convinced that the Bulls win 3 straight - perhaps they win a championship or two, but not three straight in my opinion.

I think if you had put Toni on a lesser team instead of the Bulls when he eventually came into the league, perhaps he isn't a championship player, but his stats become a lot more impressive, but that's all projection of course. He was a special player, and in many ways ahead of his time.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#25 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon May 17, 2021 1:10 am

dougthonus wrote:I like Toni Kukoc, but I hate players who get in because they were great due to contributions in lesser leagues. Might as well add J.J. Redick to the HOF for being a great scorer at Duke.

If a good chunk of your career is in the NBA, and you are a zero time all-star, you shouldn't be a HOFer. If you don't have a good chunk of your career in the NBA, you should have done something absolutely otherworldly in another league or contributed in some way way beyond your peers off the court.

Kukoc played his entire prime in the NBA, 12 total seasons, and was what at his best? Top 50? Maybe? Probably not even that.

Feel free to create a -1 button and kill me with it :lol:


If it were the NBA HOF, I'd agree with you.

But it's not. The Naismith HOF covers all basketball. There are women in there, and more than one Euro who never played an NBA game. There are Globetrotters in the HOF.

And I have to say that Toni definitely "(did) something absolutely otherworldly in another league". His European accomplishments have yet to be matched.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#26 » by League Circles » Mon May 17, 2021 1:21 am

dougthonus wrote:I like Toni Kukoc, but I hate players who get in because they were great due to contributions in lesser leagues. Might as well add J.J. Redick to the HOF for being a great scorer at Duke.

If a good chunk of your career is in the NBA, and you are a zero time all-star, you shouldn't be a HOFer. If you don't have a good chunk of your career in the NBA, you should have done something absolutely otherworldly in another league or contributed in some way way beyond your peers off the court.

Kukoc played his entire prime in the NBA, 12 total seasons, and was what at his best? Top 50? Maybe? Probably not even that.

Feel free to create a -1 button and kill me with it :lol:


I like Toni a lot. But he's obviously getting in solely to play up European basketball. There's no other explanation. And back when he played it was far inferior to the nba. He was routinely chosen to be a bench player by a number of nba head coaches throughout his career. He should definitely be in the Bulls hall of fame, if such a thing exists.

Just goes to show it's really a basketball hall of FAME. He's been a pretty famous player. Not an exceptionally good one.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#27 » by WookieOnRitalin » Mon May 17, 2021 1:25 am

Old Man Krause is vindicated once again.

I see some boo-hooing over Toni's contributions, but keep in mind that there may not have been a second three peat without Toni.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#28 » by dougthonus » Mon May 17, 2021 1:32 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:And I have to say that Toni definitely "(did) something absolutely otherworldly in another league". His European accomplishments have yet to be matched.


He did a lot more in Europe than I thought he did. Obviously the league was really weak at the time. I'm a bit more okay with it seeing how good the European accomplishments were, but still feel like you could just extend the same argument to elite college players, but we'd never do that. We'd want to see them dominate in the NBA, why set the bar different for them?

But I guess that's sort of the oddness of the HOF.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#29 » by Mk0 » Mon May 17, 2021 1:33 am

kulaz3000 wrote:
Mk0 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I like Toni Kukoc, but I hate players who get in because they were great due to contributions in lesser leagues. Might as well add J.J. Redick to the HOF for being a great scorer at Duke.

If a good chunk of your career is in the NBA, and you are a zero time all-star, you shouldn't be a HOFer. If you don't have a good chunk of your career in the NBA, you should have done something absolutely otherworldly in another league or contributed in some way way beyond your peers off the court.

Kukoc played his entire prime in the NBA, 12 total seasons, and was what at his best? Top 50? Maybe? Probably not even that.

Feel free to create a -1 button and kill me with it :lol:

-1. Nothing personal but your post is stupid and I hate it.


Have a little respect.

You don't say something is not personal, and then proceed to call it stupid.

I should have added green font. I thought it was an obvious joke considering my post history
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#30 » by dougthonus » Mon May 17, 2021 1:34 am

Mk0 wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
Mk0 wrote:-1. Nothing personal but your post is stupid and I hate it.


Have a little respect.

You don't say something is not personal, and then proceed to call it stupid.

I should have added green font. I thought it was an obvious joke considering my post history


FWIW, I though it as a joke, but I can see why someone didn't.

I didn't post what I did and then not have a thick skin about it :lol:
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#31 » by CobyWhite0 » Mon May 17, 2021 2:13 am

dougthonus wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:And I have to say that Toni definitely "(did) something absolutely otherworldly in another league". His European accomplishments have yet to be matched.


He did a lot more in Europe than I thought he did. Obviously the league was really weak at the time. I'm a bit more okay with it seeing how good the European accomplishments were, but still feel like you could just extend the same argument to elite college players, but we'd never do that. We'd want to see them dominate in the NBA, why set the bar different for them?

But I guess that's sort of the oddness of the HOF.


I don't know if there are any players in the HOF based solely on their collegiate careers, but there are most certainly college coaches who never coached an NBA game in the Hall.

It's going back a ways, but Bob Houbregs was inducted in 1987, with career NBA averages (in only 4 seasons) of 9.3 ppg, 5.5 rpg, and 1.8 apg - that tells me his HOF induction was based solely on his elite college career (he was NCAA Player of the Year in 1953).
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#32 » by greenwing » Mon May 17, 2021 2:28 am

DuckIII wrote:Maybe the Bulls will retire his jersey now? How you gonna have a HOF player whose NBA prime was with your team, and not retire his number? Come on Bulls.

Congratulations Toni!


I would be totally stoked if the Bulls retired Toni’s jersey. But HOF apparently does not necessarily count for retiring a jersey for the Bulls’ organization considering Rodman isn’t retired at the United Center after he basically admitted that playing as a Bull meant more to him than as a Piston. Would really love to see Toni honored at the United Center, though. That would definitely be special.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#33 » by RSP83 » Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 am

I just learned that HoF has a dedicated International Committee. So it is the HoF org's intention to promote the International game as well. Toni was one of its most successful player there, certainly a legendary player during his time there. It's a HoF category that is eligible for International players like Toni. In that case, Toni is a valid candidate. But if that category does not exist then I agree that Kukoc should not be in HoF conversation.

Although, I am actually curious how the HoF org is run. is it a USAB or FIBA org? is it like an equal 50-50 USAB and FIBA org? It's certainly still an NBA centric or at least US based basketball competition award (since college is there as well). If it's indeed primarily a US-based award, then the International category is more like a PR thing. Which means people shouldn't get too worked up about who is getting it. It's like arguing about who won that obscure Grammy category.

Speaking about Kukoc and the International category in HoF. Considering the winner slot is limited (probably only 1 or 2 max per HoF batch), and probably require more individual and team accomplishment, it's even harder to make it for an International player compare to NBA players. I think there are 2 groups of players who is eligible to win the International category:
1. Guys like Divac, Kukoc, Sabonis, who split their career between Europe and NBA, and accomplished the highest possible achievements (teams and individual) internationally.
2. Guys like Dirk, Pau, Giannis, Jokic. Players coming from European circuit, achieved team and individual success in the NBA.

IMO, the latter group have more advantage over their American NBA player compatriots. Because they have the edge on the International PR front as well as on-court accomplishment. IMO, it's a lock that guys like Dirk, Pau, Tony Parker, Manu, Giannis to make it.

The former group, guys like Kukoc, IMO have more difficult route to HoF. They are likely to be 4th or 5th ballot HoF-ers. And the list is very short. I don't know too many International players who can make this list. I don't think guys like Kukoc and Divac should be compared to players like Oberto and Splitter (ex-Spurs), or even guys who won MVP in Europe like Nikola Mirotic. Toni was Luka Doncic before Luka Doncic, in terms of his status as International star early in their career. Doncic appears in an era where the NBA is already Euro friendly (heck if it's not already identical to European game), Toni's NBA was totally different. But Toni's achievement in the International game is still special and rare. Individually, he achieved similar to what Doncic did in Europe. Not only that, team wise, Toni and his Yugoslavia team schooled US teams in International game consistently in the late 80s. So much that USAB had to create the Dream Team. That team with Kukoc, Divac, Radja, Petrovic was dominating Europe. And Kukoc was winning a lot of individual awards. What I'm saying is, Kukoc more than justify his Euro legend status. However, I agree that his time with the Bulls winning 3 championship as the key sixth-man certainly helps push his case more.

So, I have no issue with Toni getting in the HoF. He's a valid candidate in thr first place based on my explanation above.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#34 » by RSP83 » Mon May 17, 2021 6:01 am

dougthonus wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:And I have to say that Toni definitely "(did) something absolutely otherworldly in another league". His European accomplishments have yet to be matched.


He did a lot more in Europe than I thought he did. Obviously the league was really weak at the time. I'm a bit more okay with it seeing how good the European accomplishments were, but still feel like you could just extend the same argument to elite college players, but we'd never do that. We'd want to see them dominate in the NBA, why set the bar different for them?

But I guess that's sort of the oddness of the HOF.


I agree, I think 4-year college player with some level of individual and team accomplishment should be first class citizen for this category (these are guys like Laettner and Danny Manning, but this means it also include guys like Hansbrough). Underclassmen is eligible for consideration but their accomplishment should be really special as well, at least Tourney Champ MVP or something with perennial All-Conference accolades (Joakim Noah probably fits here).
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#35 » by dougthonus » Mon May 17, 2021 11:05 am

step wrote:
dougthonus wrote:Again, I love Toni, he was a really good player, but he was not an all-time great player or even close by NBA standards. I guess it's fine as a trailblazer type award for early European players. Vlade Divac is in on the same general principle, but I wouldn't put him in either.

Now I get where you're coming from Doug, I do somewhat agree that the NBA should have a separate HOF.

However, it's more than just an early trailblazer type award nomination, his statement of work internationally is up there.
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Individual
1986 FIBA Europe Under-18 Championship: MVP
1987 FIBA Under-19 World Cup: MVP
3× Croatian Sportsman of the Year: (1989–1991)
FIBA World Cup All-Tournament Team: (1990)
FIBA World Cup MVP: (1990)
5× Euroscar European Player of the Year: (1990–1991, 1994, 1996, 1998)
4× Mister Europa European Player of the Year: (1990–1992, 1996)
3× EuroLeague Final Four MVP: (1990, 1991, 1993)
EuroLeague Finals Top Scorer: (1990)
2× EuroLeague All-Final Four Team: (1991, 1993)
2× FIBA EuroBasket All-Tournament Team: (1991, 1995)
FIBA EuroBasket MVP: (1991)
FIBA's 50 Greatest Players: (1991)
Franjo Bučar State Award for Sport: (1992)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team: (1994)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year: (1996)
50 Greatest EuroLeague Contributors: (2008)
FIBA Hall of Fame: (2017)

Yugoslavia
1985 FIBA Europe Under-16 Championship: Gold
1986 FIBA Europe Under-18 Championship: Gold
1987 FIBA Under-19 World Cup: Gold
EuroBasket 1987: Bronze
1988 Summer Olympics: Silver
EuroBasket 1989: Gold
1990 FIBA World Championship: Gold
EuroBasket 1991: Gold

Croatia
1992 Summer Olympics: Silver
1994 FIBA World Championship: Bronze
EuroBasket 1995: Bronze


If you ignore his value as a trailblazer, then his European achievements are irrelevant to me due to the low caliber of competition (in the same way college/HS achievements are irrelevant to me for US players). We saw him against the best competition for 12 years, including all of his prime, and I'd say his absolute peak was a top 50-100 player in the league at the time which is not even remotely close to HOF worthy.

If he never came to the NBA or came over at 30, then it'd be a little different, because you can at least argue a "you never know if he came earlier", but we do know.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#36 » by Michael Jackson » Mon May 17, 2021 1:00 pm

Does Dujuan Wagner get consideration for having a 100 point game in HS?

Toni had a lot of fame both international and nationally. He is ok being entered in as a guy who had success in both leagues but he is a stretch as a HOF candidate but other metrics. As said Horace Grant had a better NBA career and he would never sniff the HOF. Toni is an outlier though and his MVP’s even in a weaker league stand for something and show a career of him being the best of his time, much like George Mikan in some ways.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#37 » by wickywack » Mon May 17, 2021 2:26 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:Does Dujuan Wagner get consideration for having a 100 point game in HS?

Toni had a lot of fame both international and nationally. He is ok being entered in as a guy who had success in both leagues but he is a stretch as a HOF candidate but other metrics. As said Horace Grant had a better NBA career and he would never sniff the HOF. Toni is an outlier though and his MVP’s even in a weaker league stand for something and show a career of him being the best of his time, much like George Mikan in some ways.


It's a bit weak, but I think the HOF is basically going by precedence now. It's not just Divac. Players like Radja and Marciulionis are in the HOF too. The ship has sailed for keeping a player like Kukoc - who a peer and probably more successful than those guys - out.

OTOH, I don't think there is precedence for high school players to get in, so that's an easier no.

At what point do we consider the likes of Jimmer Fredette though? :-)
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#38 » by Michael Jackson » Mon May 17, 2021 8:11 pm

wickywack wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:Does Dujuan Wagner get consideration for having a 100 point game in HS?

Toni had a lot of fame both international and nationally. He is ok being entered in as a guy who had success in both leagues but he is a stretch as a HOF candidate but other metrics. As said Horace Grant had a better NBA career and he would never sniff the HOF. Toni is an outlier though and his MVP’s even in a weaker league stand for something and show a career of him being the best of his time, much like George Mikan in some ways.


It's a bit weak, but I think the HOF is basically going by precedence now. It's not just Divac. Players like Radja and Marciulionis are in the HOF too. The ship has sailed for keeping a player like Kukoc - who a peer and probably more successful than those guys - out.

OTOH, I don't think there is precedence for high school players to get in, so that's an easier no.

At what point do we consider the likes of Jimmer Fredette though? :-)



Obviously Wagner will never make it. Disappointing pro career ended that and his 100 point game was always a gimmick although still an insane feat even in high school. I'm betting if I played that game I could have kept him to 98 ha!
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#39 » by dougthonus » Tue May 18, 2021 1:33 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:Obviously Wagner will never make it. Disappointing pro career ended that and his 100 point game was always a gimmick although still an insane feat even in high school. I'm betting if I played that game I could have kept him to 98 ha!


I bet I could have kept him to 150.
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Re: Toni Kukoc named to the Basketball HOF 

Post#40 » by The Box Office » Wed May 19, 2021 12:05 am

Kukoc earned it. He's a very good player. I always thought that the only thing that held him back is his body. If he had explosive athleticism then he would have been an undisputed all time great.

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