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OT: Chicago Baseball 2021

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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#21 » by Dresden » Sat May 29, 2021 3:21 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
Dresden wrote:As for LaRussa- I don't follow the Sox that closely, but I thought he was 100% correct in disciplining Mercedes for hitting when he was given the take sign. At some point, you have to put the team ahead of yourself. And Mercedes apparently couldn't see that.

Getting the team more runs isn't helping them?

This ain't tee ball. If these old idiots care so much, they should push for a mercy rule. Yet, they don't.


This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided. You don't throw a bomb in football when your up by 4 TD's late in the game. You don't steal a base when you're up 10-0 in the 9th inning. And so on. It's bad sportsmanship, and La Russa was sticking up for that, which I applaud.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#22 » by Dresden » Sat May 29, 2021 3:24 am

That Javy Baez play is going to go down in history as one of the dumbest fielding plays ever. I can't believe how dumb the Pirates were about that. Even after the run scored, if they would have just gotten Baez out at first it wouldn't have counted I don't believe.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#23 » by TyrusRose2425 » Sat May 29, 2021 4:57 am

Dresden wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
Dresden wrote:As for LaRussa- I don't follow the Sox that closely, but I thought he was 100% correct in disciplining Mercedes for hitting when he was given the take sign. At some point, you have to put the team ahead of yourself. And Mercedes apparently couldn't see that.

Getting the team more runs isn't helping them?

This ain't tee ball. If these old idiots care so much, they should push for a mercy rule. Yet, they don't.


This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided. You don't throw a bomb in football when your up by 4 TD's late in the game. You don't steal a base when you're up 10-0 in the 9th inning. And so on. It's bad sportsmanship, and La Russa was sticking up for that, which I applaud.

And yet one of the arguments people make in favor of baseball over other sports is that you get 27 outs and anything can happen, rather than being limited by what the clock says. In basketball and football you can sub the starters back in if the score gets a little too tight, in baseball you can't.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#24 » by Dresden » Sat May 29, 2021 6:54 am

TyrusRose2425 wrote:
Dresden wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:Getting the team more runs isn't helping them?

This ain't tee ball. If these old idiots care so much, they should push for a mercy rule. Yet, they don't.


This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided. You don't throw a bomb in football when your up by 4 TD's late in the game. You don't steal a base when you're up 10-0 in the 9th inning. And so on. It's bad sportsmanship, and La Russa was sticking up for that, which I applaud.

And yet one of the arguments people make in favor of baseball over other sports is that you get 27 outs and anything can happen, rather than being limited by what the clock says. In basketball and football you can sub the starters back in if the score gets a little too tight, in baseball you can't.


Tell me then, why has it been part of the baseball code for years and years that you don't steal a base in the last few innings when you're up by a substantial amount?
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#25 » by Michael Jackson » Sat May 29, 2021 2:02 pm

Dresden wrote:That Javy Baez play is going to go down in history as one of the dumbest fielding plays ever. I can't believe how dumb the Pirates were about that. Even after the run scored, if they would have just gotten Baez out at first it wouldn't have counted I don't believe.



Yes the force out at first would have killed that run. That play made the 3 stooges jealous, it was so uncanny. Playing pickup baseball at age 7 I don’t think we could have played that poorly. It was unreal how zany that was.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#26 » by fleet » Sat May 29, 2021 6:55 pm

Dresden wrote:As for LaRussa- I don't follow the Sox that closely, but I thought he was 100% correct in disciplining Mercedes for hitting when he was given the take sign. At some point, you have to put the team ahead of yourself. And Mercedes apparently couldn't see that.

I would argue it was more LaRussa that put himself ahead of the team. And as far as what the team members support in terms of the entire situation, it is Mercedes. Whether or not he broke a rule, they don’t see it as a biggie. It looks like they take it about as seriously as if Mercedes decided to wear the wrong socks. If anything, most of them seem glad he did it. Like it was righteous. The biggest resultant negative they may see is in how poorly the manager reacted to it.

There is virtually no disagreement with the idea that Mercedes should have obeyed the sign. Missing or ignoring the take sign should have been an internal situation. The public controversy was in Mercedes’ alleged violation of the rationale behind TLR issuing the take sign. There is certainly lots of debate on whether or not TLR is out of touch in his rationale. On top of all that, no manager should ever throw his own player under the bus, especially in public. And then invite retribution from the other team. And then, deny your player was thrown at. That’s simply betrayal. Perhaps unrelated, Mercedes and the team went into a mini-slump after. TLR for some reason felt like indulging his ego in front of the microphones at the expense of the team. Hard to understand how they keep it together under him, but they have a good group of guys that try to stay focused on the season. I have a feeling this is a one and done season for Mr HOF.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#27 » by TyrusRose2425 » Sat May 29, 2021 10:26 pm

Dresden wrote:
TyrusRose2425 wrote:
Dresden wrote:
This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided. You don't throw a bomb in football when your up by 4 TD's late in the game. You don't steal a base when you're up 10-0 in the 9th inning. And so on. It's bad sportsmanship, and La Russa was sticking up for that, which I applaud.

And yet one of the arguments people make in favor of baseball over other sports is that you get 27 outs and anything can happen, rather than being limited by what the clock says. In basketball and football you can sub the starters back in if the score gets a little too tight, in baseball you can't.


Tell me then, why has it been part of the baseball code for years and years that you don't steal a base in the last few innings when you're up by a substantial amount?

Another unwritten rule? That's why the game is losing popularity for the younger crowd, all these old, outdated unwritten rules.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#28 » by Leslie Forman » Sat May 29, 2021 11:08 pm

Dresden wrote:This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided.

Baseball doesn't have a time limit. The game is never "decided" until the last out. There have been plenty of big 9th inning comebacks over the years.

The notion that players who are desperately trying to make every last buck they can in their short career, especially an old rookie like Mercedes who needs every hit and run he can possibly get for arbitration, should just tank their own at bat for some old drunk on the bench is just plain insulting. These are grown ass men fighting for millions out there. You're gonna tell them to their face they should just sit there and take a 50MPH meatball down the middle when this is their livelihood? Be my guest.

The vast majority of "unwritten" rules are incredibly stupid, that's why they are, you know, unwritten. If they were so important to the game, guess what, they'd just be rules.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#29 » by Dresden » Sun May 30, 2021 4:14 am

TyrusRose2425 wrote:
Dresden wrote:
TyrusRose2425 wrote:And yet one of the arguments people make in favor of baseball over other sports is that you get 27 outs and anything can happen, rather than being limited by what the clock says. In basketball and football you can sub the starters back in if the score gets a little too tight, in baseball you can't.


Tell me then, why has it been part of the baseball code for years and years that you don't steal a base in the last few innings when you're up by a substantial amount?

Another unwritten rule? That's why the game is losing popularity for the younger crowd, all these old, outdated unwritten rules.


I find it hard to believe that that's the reason.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#30 » by Dresden » Sun May 30, 2021 4:16 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
Dresden wrote:This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided.

Baseball doesn't have a time limit. The game is never "decided" until the last out. There have been plenty of big 9th inning comebacks over the years.

The notion that players who are desperately trying to make every last buck they can in their short career, especially an old rookie like Mercedes who needs every hit and run he can possibly get for arbitration, should just tank their own at bat for some old drunk on the bench is just plain insulting. These are grown ass men fighting for millions out there. You're gonna tell them to their face they should just sit there and take a 50MPH meatball down the middle when this is their livelihood? Be my guest.

The vast majority of "unwritten" rules are incredibly stupid, that's why they are, you know, unwritten. If they were so important to the game, guess what, they'd just be rules.


You're completely missing the point of why certain rules are "unwritten". it would be hard to make a rule that you can't steal a base when you're up 10-0 in the ninth inning, yet over the years a code has developed among players and coaches that you just shouldn't do that. As well as other things.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#31 » by Dresden » Sun May 30, 2021 4:17 am

fleet wrote:
Dresden wrote:As for LaRussa- I don't follow the Sox that closely, but I thought he was 100% correct in disciplining Mercedes for hitting when he was given the take sign. At some point, you have to put the team ahead of yourself. And Mercedes apparently couldn't see that.

I would argue it was more LaRussa that put himself ahead of the team. And as far as what the team members support in terms of the entire situation, it is Mercedes. Whether or not he broke a rule, they don’t see it as a biggie. It looks like they take it about as seriously as if Mercedes decided to wear the wrong socks. If anything, most of them seem glad he did it. Like it was righteous. The biggest resultant negative they may see is in how poorly the manager reacted to it.

There is virtually no disagreement with the idea that Mercedes should have obeyed the sign. Missing or ignoring the take sign should have been an internal situation. The public controversy was in Mercedes’ alleged violation of the rationale behind TLR issuing the take sign. There is certainly lots of debate on whether or not TLR is out of touch in his rationale. On top of all that, no manager should ever throw his own player under the bus, especially in public. And then invite retribution from the other team. And then, deny your player was thrown at. That’s simply betrayal. Perhaps unrelated, Mercedes and the team went into a mini-slump after. TLR for some reason felt like indulging his ego in front of the microphones at the expense of the team. Hard to understand how they keep it together under him, but they have a good group of guys that try to stay focused on the season. I have a feeling this is a one and done season for Mr HOF.


Who is running the team, the players or the coach? If the players all decide on something that contradicts what the manager is telling them to do, that makes it ok then?
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#32 » by fleet » Sun May 30, 2021 7:29 am

Dresden wrote:
fleet wrote:
Dresden wrote:As for LaRussa- I don't follow the Sox that closely, but I thought he was 100% correct in disciplining Mercedes for hitting when he was given the take sign. At some point, you have to put the team ahead of yourself. And Mercedes apparently couldn't see that.

I would argue it was more LaRussa that put himself ahead of the team. And as far as what the team members support in terms of the entire situation, it is Mercedes. Whether or not he broke a rule, they don’t see it as a biggie. It looks like they take it about as seriously as if Mercedes decided to wear the wrong socks. If anything, most of them seem glad he did it. Like it was righteous. The biggest resultant negative they may see is in how poorly the manager reacted to it.

There is virtually no disagreement with the idea that Mercedes should have obeyed the sign. Missing or ignoring the take sign should have been an internal situation. The public controversy was in Mercedes’ alleged violation of the rationale behind TLR issuing the take sign. There is certainly lots of debate on whether or not TLR is out of touch in his rationale. On top of all that, no manager should ever throw his own player under the bus, especially in public. And then invite retribution from the other team. And then, deny your player was thrown at. That’s simply betrayal. Perhaps unrelated, Mercedes and the team went into a mini-slump after. TLR for some reason felt like indulging his ego in front of the microphones at the expense of the team. Hard to understand how they keep it together under him, but they have a good group of guys that try to stay focused on the season. I have a feeling this is a one and done season for Mr HOF.


Who is running the team, the players or the coach? If the players all decide on something that contradicts what the manager is telling them to do, that makes it ok then?

I dont know who wins the moral battle. Given the landscape,I just know the manager ducked this situation up badly. And most managers would have handled it better.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#33 » by Dominater » Sun May 30, 2021 9:22 am

fleet wrote:
Dresden wrote:
fleet wrote:I would argue it was more LaRussa that put himself ahead of the team. And as far as what the team members support in terms of the entire situation, it is Mercedes. Whether or not he broke a rule, they don’t see it as a biggie. It looks like they take it about as seriously as if Mercedes decided to wear the wrong socks. If anything, most of them seem glad he did it. Like it was righteous. The biggest resultant negative they may see is in how poorly the manager reacted to it.

There is virtually no disagreement with the idea that Mercedes should have obeyed the sign. Missing or ignoring the take sign should have been an internal situation. The public controversy was in Mercedes’ alleged violation of the rationale behind TLR issuing the take sign. There is certainly lots of debate on whether or not TLR is out of touch in his rationale. On top of all that, no manager should ever throw his own player under the bus, especially in public. And then invite retribution from the other team. And then, deny your player was thrown at. That’s simply betrayal. Perhaps unrelated, Mercedes and the team went into a mini-slump after. TLR for some reason felt like indulging his ego in front of the microphones at the expense of the team. Hard to understand how they keep it together under him, but they have a good group of guys that try to stay focused on the season. I have a feeling this is a one and done season for Mr HOF.


Who is running the team, the players or the coach? If the players all decide on something that contradicts what the manager is telling them to do, that makes it ok then?

I dont know who wins the moral battle. Given the landscape,I just know the manager ducked this situation up badly. And most managers would have handled it better.

Exactly. Ozzie would have backed his players 100%
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#34 » by Dresden » Sun May 30, 2021 3:50 pm

Cubs are really on a roll- 6 in a row, and 11 of 13. Hard to believe. Cards are playing well too though.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#35 » by dougthonus » Sun May 30, 2021 4:06 pm

Dresden wrote:You're completely missing the point of why certain rules are "unwritten". it would be hard to make a rule that you can't steal a base when you're up 10-0 in the ninth inning, yet over the years a code has developed among players and coaches that you just shouldn't do that. As well as other things.


And tons of players obviously don't believe in that code given the support the player got which means it is an unwritten suggestion that some players will follow and others will not. No need to be upset at the ones who don't.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#36 » by CobyWhite0 » Sun May 30, 2021 5:07 pm

Look at it like it's the NBA - we all know there's an unwritten rule that when a team has the game won and they get the ball back with more than 24 seconds left in the game, they go down and hold the ball until the shot clock expires. Every time in every game, playoffs included.

If someone were to come down and take a shot in that situation, do you think their coach would call them out on it?

If it happened during a playoff series, do you think the opponent would come out with some extra motivation the next game? Do you think the player who took the completely unnecessary shot might get fouled especially hard the next game?
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#37 » by fleet » Sun May 30, 2021 6:02 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:Look at it like it's the NBA - we all know there's an unwritten rule that when a team has the game won and they get the ball back with more than 24 seconds left in the game, they go down and hold the ball until the shot clock expires. Every time in every game, playoffs included.

If someone were to come down and take a shot in that situation, do you think their coach would call them out on it?

If it happened during a playoff series, do you think the opponent would come out with some extra motivation the next game? Do you think the player who took the completely unnecessary shot might get fouled especially hard the next game?

Simply not the same situation. There is a changing culture in baseball that has different ideas about LaRussa’s unwritten rules. The Sox players disagree with the old rules, and so do tons of baseball media. That does not absolve Mercedes of disobedience, but nobody in the league has any problems with the NBA examples, and clearly that is not the case with what is going on with baseball .

Most of all you bypassed the main point, that LaRussa destroyed his own player and excused the Twins when they threw at him. Talk about violating unwritten rules, the manager was guilty of doing just that. He was so wrong MLB completely disagreed with LaRussa and suspended the Twins pitcher. You are missing the main controversy. Mercedes disobeying the sign is universally agreed upon as wrong. There is no discussion over that. This, is now about how Tony Larussa managed the team after Mercedes hit the homer. LaRussa’s public reaction was atrocious, he completely abandoned the squad and became a Twins apologist.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#38 » by Dresden » Sun May 30, 2021 8:50 pm

fleet wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:Look at it like it's the NBA - we all know there's an unwritten rule that when a team has the game won and they get the ball back with more than 24 seconds left in the game, they go down and hold the ball until the shot clock expires. Every time in every game, playoffs included.

If someone were to come down and take a shot in that situation, do you think their coach would call them out on it?

If it happened during a playoff series, do you think the opponent would come out with some extra motivation the next game? Do you think the player who took the completely unnecessary shot might get fouled especially hard the next game?

Simply not the same situation. There is a changing culture in baseball that has different ideas about LaRussa’s unwritten rules. The Sox players disagree with the old rules, and so do tons of baseball media. That does not absolve Mercedes of disobedience, but nobody in the league has any problems with the NBA examples, and clearly that is not the case with what is going on with baseball .

Most of all you bypassed the main point, that LaRussa destroyed his own player and excused the Twins when they threw at him. Talk about violating unwritten rules, the manager was guilty of doing just that. He was so wrong MLB completely disagreed with LaRussa and suspended the Twins pitcher. You are missing the main controversy. Mercedes disobeying the sign is universally agreed upon as wrong. There is no discussion over that. This, is now about how Tony Larussa managed the team after Mercedes hit the homer. LaRussa’s public reaction was atrocious, he completely abandoned the squad and became a Twins apologist.


I haven't really followed what happened after the first incident. It does sounds like LaRussa went overboard to make his point. My beef is the fact that LaRussa was so roundly criticized for even pointing out that Mercedes was wrong to be swinging through a take sign in that instance. I read an article in the national media saying how that demonstrated how out of touch with the game he was. That's what I'm disagreeing with- I don't think it's so bad to want your players to follow the tradition of not running up the score needlessly, which is exactly the same as the example given above about the nba. Many players, and most in the media, seem to think it was fine for Mercedes to tee off in that situation- that having to take a walk in that situation is somehow taking the fun or the entertainment out of the game for the younger fans, who apparently can't stomach watching a baseball game if there isn't a home run being hit every other inning.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#39 » by CobyWhite0 » Sun May 30, 2021 9:36 pm

Dresden wrote:
fleet wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:Look at it like it's the NBA - we all know there's an unwritten rule that when a team has the game won and they get the ball back with more than 24 seconds left in the game, they go down and hold the ball until the shot clock expires. Every time in every game, playoffs included.

If someone were to come down and take a shot in that situation, do you think their coach would call them out on it?

If it happened during a playoff series, do you think the opponent would come out with some extra motivation the next game? Do you think the player who took the completely unnecessary shot might get fouled especially hard the next game?

Simply not the same situation. There is a changing culture in baseball that has different ideas about LaRussa’s unwritten rules. The Sox players disagree with the old rules, and so do tons of baseball media. That does not absolve Mercedes of disobedience, but nobody in the league has any problems with the NBA examples, and clearly that is not the case with what is going on with baseball .

Most of all you bypassed the main point, that LaRussa destroyed his own player and excused the Twins when they threw at him. Talk about violating unwritten rules, the manager was guilty of doing just that. He was so wrong MLB completely disagreed with LaRussa and suspended the Twins pitcher. You are missing the main controversy. Mercedes disobeying the sign is universally agreed upon as wrong. There is no discussion over that. This, is now about how Tony Larussa managed the team after Mercedes hit the homer. LaRussa’s public reaction was atrocious, he completely abandoned the squad and became a Twins apologist.


I haven't really followed what happened after the first incident. It does sounds like LaRussa went overboard to make his point. My beef is the fact that LaRussa was so roundly criticized for even pointing out that Mercedes was wrong to be swinging through a take sign in that instance. I read an article in the national media saying how that demonstrated how out of touch with the game he was. That's what I'm disagreeing with- I don't think it's so bad to want your players to follow the tradition of not running up the score needlessly, which is exactly the same as the example given above about the nba. Many players, and most in the media, seem to think it was fine for Mercedes to tee off in that situation- that having to take a walk in that situation is somehow taking the fun or the entertainment out of the game for the younger fans, who apparently can't stomach watching a baseball game if there isn't a home run being hit every other inning.


Agreed, I also haven't paid much attention since immediately after the "incident" - Tony may be an out of touch old drunk, but it seems as if he was correct about Mercedes disrespecting his opponents.

Because obviously the Twins had a problem with it, if I'm reading correctly that they threw at Mercedes shortly afterwards. They noticed.
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Re: OT: Chicago Baseball 2021 

Post#40 » by DJhitek » Sun May 30, 2021 10:56 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
Dresden wrote:This is an old argument, but it's been an unwritten rule in baseball, as well as most other sports, that you don't run up the score when the game has been decided.

Baseball doesn't have a time limit. The game is never "decided" until the last out. There have been plenty of big 9th inning comebacks over the years.

The notion that players who are desperately trying to make every last buck they can in their short career, especially an old rookie like Mercedes who needs every hit and run he can possibly get for arbitration, should just tank their own at bat for some old drunk on the bench is just plain insulting. These are grown ass men fighting for millions out there. You're gonna tell them to their face they should just sit there and take a 50MPH meatball down the middle when this is their livelihood? Be my guest.

The vast majority of "unwritten" rules are incredibly stupid, that's why they are, you know, unwritten. If they were so important to the game, guess what, they'd just be rules.


Unwritten rules would be written rules if they made any sense or were worth even discussing. The fact that Larussa is more concerned with unwritten rules than the written ones should give anyone a hint of how completely out of touch he is, and the rest of the old school baseball heads who cling to these dated sentiments.

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