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The Summer The Bulls Need To Have

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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#41 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:13 pm

heir_jordan22 wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
gobullschi wrote:John freaking Wall.

He’s the one player that offers the most upside that doesn’t cost the Bulls any valuable assets....They would actually acquire assets for eating his salary, which is something the Bulls can handle because of LaVines and Vucevic’s under market contracts.

Yes, there is some health risk, but that risk can be managed by reducing his minutes (career avg 36MPG) and resting him on some back to backs. Coby White and Troy Brown Jr. could step in and get increased minutes during those stretches. (Yay - player development!)

What other options do the Bulls really even have? Mike Conley isn’t leaving Utah. Lonzo will end up in NY, DAL, MIA or stay in NO. Kyle Lowry is 35 years old. Yes, the Bulls have a new front office willing to make changes, but failing to make the playoffs, cold weather, & high taxes are all hurdles they won’t be able to overcome.

Trade #1:
Houston Receives:
Eric Bledsoe, Al-Farouq Aminu, & Tomas Satoransky

Chicago Receives:
John Wall, Kenyon Martin Jr., #35, 2022 1st (BKN), & 2022 1st (LA)

New Orleans Receives:
Thaddeus Young & Ryan Arcidiacano

Trade #2:
Chicago Receives:
Chris Boucher

Toronto Receives:
Lauri Markkanen, 2022 1st (LA), & 2022 1st (BKN)

John Wall / Coby White / Devon Dotson
Zach LaVine / Troy Brown Jr.
Patrick Williams / Kenyon Martin Jr. / Garrett Temple
Chris Boucher / Trey Murphy III (#36) / JT Thor (#38)
Nikola Vucevic / Daniel Theis



Houston wants picks for Wall... I mean they want to get off the salary but in these tank cases they want picks back. Wall is way overpaid but I don’t hate what he brings. Just not sure what Houston agrees to for him though. You are also stuck with Wall for the rest of his contract and as you said health is a huge question along with the salary.

I'm all for trading for Wall if we don't win the lottery and can't get an all-star who decides they want out (like Lillard). I think the issue is that the Rkckets would not give up additional assets, especially if they have to take on a long term contract. Bledsoe's contract is just as long as Wall's and he is also overpaid. I think they I'll expect a good young player in return for him. I think either Markkanen or White will have to be included for Wall and KMJ.


Bledsoe makes $20M/year less and the last year in his contract isn’t guaranteed. Maybe HOU keeps KMJ.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#42 » by Wingy » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:38 pm

I don't see Houston giving up that much. The complete tear down and tank shows they're willing to build through the draft for a time. You need someone to meet the salary floor...why not John Wall?

Sure they'd love to shed his contract, but they're far from win now, so if they're going to do so - they wouldn't logically pay a premium.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#43 » by Little Nathan » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:45 pm

I think Wall will get bought out eventually. I don't see why anyone would give up an actual asset for him, but I also don't think Houston would pay someone to take him while they're rebuilding. Looks like the Blake Griffin situation in Detroit to me. Yeah, Wall is a little better than Griffin, but I don't see either player actually contributing much on a good team at this point.

His contract makes things much worse obviously.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#44 » by drosestruts » Thu Jun 3, 2021 3:55 pm

John Wall, like Kevin Love, is on a team in no hurry to clear cap space. They won't be trading assets to move off these contracts. They don't need the cap space.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#45 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 4:06 pm

drosestruts wrote:John Wall, like Kevin Love, is on a team in no hurry to clear cap space. They won't be trading assets to move off these contracts. They don't need the cap space.


I don’t think it’s that black and white of a situation. John Wall can’t be compared to Kevin Love or Blake Griffin because he is still a productive player.

He isn’t just ‘a bad contract’. He’s a player that helps Houston win basketball games, which is counterproductive to a team in the middle of a rebuild. Bulls fans know this better than most after consecutive years of drafting outside the top 5 in our rebuild.

A late 1st is a minimal expense if it means the difference from drafting in the top 4 or drafting in the 7-10 range. (IMO)
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#46 » by MrSparkle » Thu Jun 3, 2021 4:28 pm

Wall is an uber high-risk, medium reward, terrible contract. I agree with the sentiment that HOU sits on his pay and tanks, or eventually has a buy out.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#47 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 4:36 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Wall is an uber high-risk, medium reward, terrible contract. I agree with the sentiment that HOU sits on his pay and tanks, or eventually has a buy out.


Compared to what though? Mike Conley? Kyle Lowry? DeMar DeRozan? All those guys will get contracts longer than 2 years and are much older.

The earliest they’ll buy-out Wall would be next season. There is no way they buy him out this year (too much $).
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#48 » by Wingy » Thu Jun 3, 2021 4:57 pm

gobullschi wrote:
drosestruts wrote:John Wall, like Kevin Love, is on a team in no hurry to clear cap space. They won't be trading assets to move off these contracts. They don't need the cap space.


I don’t think it’s that black and white of a situation. John Wall can’t be compared to Kevin Love or Blake Griffin because he is still a productive player.

He isn’t just ‘a bad contract’. He’s a player that helps Houston win basketball games, which is counterproductive to a team in the middle of a rebuild. Bulls fans know this better than most after consecutive years of drafting outside the top 5 in our rebuild.

A late 1st is a minimal expense if it means the difference from drafting in the top 4 or drafting in the 7-10 range. (IMO)


Physical prime Zach Lavine, some decent vets, and seasoned (albeit not very good) youngsters had us in the 7-10 range.

Old, and busted John Wall with a few decent young players isn’t elevating squat.

Even with Kevin freaking Durant, OKC was still plenty bad enough to get Westbrook and Harden at 4 and 3. Given flattened odds nowadays, I’m sure this isn’t one iota of a concern for Houston.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#49 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 5:09 pm

Wingy wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
drosestruts wrote:John Wall, like Kevin Love, is on a team in no hurry to clear cap space. They won't be trading assets to move off these contracts. They don't need the cap space.


I don’t think it’s that black and white of a situation. John Wall can’t be compared to Kevin Love or Blake Griffin because he is still a productive player.

He isn’t just ‘a bad contract’. He’s a player that helps Houston win basketball games, which is counterproductive to a team in the middle of a rebuild. Bulls fans know this better than most after consecutive years of drafting outside the top 5 in our rebuild.

A late 1st is a minimal expense if it means the difference from drafting in the top 4 or drafting in the 7-10 range. (IMO)


Physical prime Zach Lavine, some decent vets, and seasoned (albeit not very good) youngsters had us in the 7-10 range.

Old, and busted John Wall with a few decent young players isn’t elevating squat.

Even with Kevin freaking Durant, OKC was still plenty bad enough to get Westbrook and Harden at 4 and 3. Given flattened odds nowadays, I’m sure this isn’t one iota of a concern for Houston.


Maybe... but look at what the Bulls could have done in the draft if they weren’t drafting 7th in the rebuild. :banghead:
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#50 » by sco » Thu Jun 3, 2021 8:27 pm

Wall is an ugly deal. I would try Sato, Aminu, Thad to Hou for Wall and Porter Jr. (who I like) or one of their 1sts.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#51 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:16 pm

Even with no assets traded, just adding Wall makes you a team that is 5th best at best... Philly, Milwaukee, BKN and now the Hawks are all ahead of you. Healthy Indy, Boston are likely ahead of that team still but that is the class you are in. I’d take it over being terrible, but it also doesn’t make us a really good team either. I actually like Wall but he is what he is at this point.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#52 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:22 pm

John Wall sucks.

Are you people out of your mind?
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#53 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:33 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:John Wall sucks.

Are you people out of your mind?


What’s your problem with him? And who do you like that’s available that you believe is better?
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#54 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:46 pm

gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:John Wall sucks.

Are you people out of your mind?


What’s your problem with him? And who do you like that’s available that you believe is better?

He shot 40% last year and had negative win shares?
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#55 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 10:16 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:John Wall sucks.

Are you people out of your mind?


What’s your problem with him? And who do you like that’s available that you believe is better?

He shot 40% last year and had negative win shares?


I can find something wrong with almost every NBA player, but not every player is available and not every stat tells the whole story. We’re going to analyze his win-share on that depleted Rockets team? First year back after an injury. COVID season. You can do better.

If the goal is determining the Bull’s best options available, then we need to run a comparative analysis. What’s the alternative and what’s it going to cost?

John Wall doesn’t cost an asset (besides cap), which gives the Bulls options to add more talent. That’s a part of the equation too and why makes him the most appealing option IMO.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#56 » by drosestruts » Thu Jun 3, 2021 10:28 pm

gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
What’s your problem with him? And who do you like that’s available that you believe is better?

He shot 40% last year and had negative win shares?


I can find something wrong with almost every NBA player, but not every player is available and not every stat tells the whole story. We’re going to analyze his win-share on that depleted Rockets team? First year back after an injury. COVID season. You can do better.

If the goal is determining the Bull’s best options available, then we need to run a comparative analysis. What’s the alternative and what’s it going to cost?

John Wall doesn’t cost an asset (besides cap), which gives the Bulls options to add more talent. That’s a part of the equation too and why makes him the most appealing option IMO.


Well not just cap, in your original post you have Chicago trading Young, Sato, Aminu, and Archi, which by the way is still $7M more incoming with Wall's salary. So Wall isn't just costing us cap space, he'd also be costing us significant depth. Not only the 4 you're trading for him but probably any shot we'd have at keeping Theis, Temple or adding a decent vet.

Also in an earlier post you mentioned "what's the alternative? Conley, DeRozan, Lowry. You mentioned them being older am ost likely look for contracts longer than 2 years, and while they're hardly the only other options, since you named them, I will point out that all 3 are legit better than John Wall.

I think we have no shot at Lowry. I am curious if the Spurs would have any interest in some sign and trades involving DeRozan and Lauri.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#57 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 3, 2021 10:38 pm

drosestruts wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:He shot 40% last year and had negative win shares?


I can find something wrong with almost every NBA player, but not every player is available and not every stat tells the whole story. We’re going to analyze his win-share on that depleted Rockets team? First year back after an injury. COVID season. You can do better.

If the goal is determining the Bull’s best options available, then we need to run a comparative analysis. What’s the alternative and what’s it going to cost?

John Wall doesn’t cost an asset (besides cap), which gives the Bulls options to add more talent. That’s a part of the equation too and why makes him the most appealing option IMO.


Well not just cap, in your original post you have Chicago trading Young, Sato, Aminu, and Archi, which by the way is still $7M more incoming with Wall's salary. So Wall isn't just costing us cap space, he'd also be costing us significant depth. Not only the 4 you're trading for him but probably any shot we'd have at keeping Theis, Temple or adding a decent vet.


Someone can double check my numbers but I’m seeing the Bulls would have enough cap to extend Theis to a maximum of $10M annual contract and Temple returning on a similar deal (4.5M).

Aminu and Arcidiacano do not count as depth. They have no business seeing consistent playing time. Your also ignoring the additions of Kenyon Martin Jr. and draft picks to recoup the lost depth on long term affordable contracts.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#58 » by kodo » Fri Jun 4, 2021 2:47 am

John Wall scored at 50% TS...that's amazingly bad. Unleashing Arcidiacano (54% TS) would be better.

Bulls are in a weird situation where we're a bad team but actually finding shooting partners to Lavine (63% TS) to replace likely exiting offensive players Lauri (61% TS) and Sato (61% TS & 7.5 assists per 36) isn't as easy as we would think.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#59 » by HomoSapien » Fri Jun 4, 2021 7:35 am

kodo wrote:John Wall scored at 50% TS...that's amazingly bad. Unleashing Arcidiacano (54% TS) would be better.

Bulls are in a weird situation where we're a bad team but actually finding shooting partners to Lavine (63% TS) to replace likely exiting offensive players Lauri (61% TS) and Sato (61% TS & 7.5 assists per 36) isn't as easy as we would think.


Yeah, I'm definitely not in favor of exploring John Wall as an option. Bulls had 3 unique issues last year:

1.) In the first half of the season, we lost a bizarre amount of close games that we were in a position to win.

2.) In the first half of the season, opposing centers routinely put up season-high/or near season-high numbers against us.

3.) Coby White initiating the offense as a point guard was absurdly bad.

I think the first issue will get better with experience. The second issue did get better with Vuc/Theis on the roster. The third issue honestly got a lot better towards the end of the season as Coby slowed down his game.
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Re: The Summer The Bulls Need To Have 

Post#60 » by drosestruts » Fri Jun 4, 2021 2:49 pm

gobullschi wrote:
drosestruts wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
I can find something wrong with almost every NBA player, but not every player is available and not every stat tells the whole story. We’re going to analyze his win-share on that depleted Rockets team? First year back after an injury. COVID season. You can do better.

If the goal is determining the Bull’s best options available, then we need to run a comparative analysis. What’s the alternative and what’s it going to cost?

John Wall doesn’t cost an asset (besides cap), which gives the Bulls options to add more talent. That’s a part of the equation too and why makes him the most appealing option IMO.


Well not just cap, in your original post you have Chicago trading Young, Sato, Aminu, and Archi, which by the way is still $7M more incoming with Wall's salary. So Wall isn't just costing us cap space, he'd also be costing us significant depth. Not only the 4 you're trading for him but probably any shot we'd have at keeping Theis, Temple or adding a decent vet.


Someone can double check my numbers but I’m seeing the Bulls would have enough cap to extend Theis to a maximum of $10M annual contract and Temple returning on a similar deal (4.5M).

Aminu and Arcidiacano do not count as depth. They have no business seeing consistent playing time. Your also ignoring the additions of Kenyon Martin Jr. and draft picks to recoup the lost depth on long term affordable contracts.


Why so willing to give Wall the benefit of the doubt after injuries but not Aminu? In theory, he could be a great 4 in our starting lineup wedged in between Wiliams and Vucevic.

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