RealGM

gardenofsound wrote:These players, IMO are better than Lavine right now on a night to night basis (when healthy, and in no particular order):

Lebron James
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Luka Doncic
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
James Harden
Chris Paul
Kawhi Leonard
Jayson Tatum
Paul George
Kyrie Irving
Zion Williamson
Damian Lillard
Joel Embiid
Anthony Davis

I'd say he's arguably top 16-30. In his tier would be the following players:
Ben Simmons
Devin Booker
KAT
Bam Adebayo
Julius Randle
Demar Derozan
Daniel Gafford
Jimmy Butler (yeah... I think Lavine is around Butler's level now)
Ja Morant
Trae Young
Tobias Harris
Klay Thompson (assuming a relative return to form)

Your list is quite questionable even after removing Daniel Gafford's name from the list but.. really that Daniel Gafford we know? Wow.

And where are the names of the MVP - Nikola Yokic, Donovan Mitchell, Bradley Beal and Rudy Gobert who are all better than LaVine? Also I can't find Jrue Holiday, Domantas Sabonis, SGA, Khris Middleton and Mike Conley on the list.

FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

dukeespn wrote:FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Any list that says Luka is only the 10th best player in the NBA has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Plain and simple.

dukeespn wrote:

gardenofsound wrote:These players, IMO are better than Lavine right now on a night to night basis (when healthy, and in no particular order):

Lebron James
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Luka Doncic
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
James Harden
Chris Paul
Kawhi Leonard
Jayson Tatum
Paul George
Kyrie Irving
Zion Williamson
Damian Lillard
Joel Embiid
Anthony Davis

I'd say he's arguably top 16-30. In his tier would be the following players:
Ben Simmons
Devin Booker
KAT
Bam Adebayo
Julius Randle
Demar Derozan
Daniel Gafford
Jimmy Butler (yeah... I think Lavine is around Butler's level now)
Ja Morant
Trae Young
Tobias Harris
Klay Thompson (assuming a relative return to form)

Your list is quite questionable even after removing Daniel Gafford's name from the list but.. really that Daniel Gafford we know? Wow.

And where are the names of the MVP - Nikola Yokic, Donovan Mitchell, Bradley Beal and Rudy Gobert who are all better than LaVine? Also I can't find Jrue Holiday, Domantas Sabonis, SGA, Khris Middleton and Mike Conley on the list.

FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Gafford was obviously a joke.

Yeah, I missed those four guys. I'll amend it. You're right.

Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

CobyWhite0 wrote:

dukeespn wrote:FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Any list that says Luka is only the 10th best player in the NBA has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Plain and simple.

Not because your favorite player's name is missing?

And please tell me which players on the list are not better than LaVine.

FanInTheAttic wrote:Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

I'd want to compare Zach in the Playoffs to Mitchell or Booker.

He is in a very similar situation and in need of a better backcourt partner like a CP3 or a Conley Jr.

This is why I'm hoping for a sign Lowry and resign Theis off season.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

dukeespn wrote:

CobyWhite0 wrote:

dukeespn wrote:FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Any list that says Luka is only the 10th best player in the NBA has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Plain and simple.

Not because your favorite player's name is missing?

And please tell me which players on the list are not better than LaVine.

I think he is a top 25, but he really needs get in the playoffs. He has the stats now he needs the wins.

BullChit wrote:

FanInTheAttic wrote:Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

I'd want to compare Zach in the Playoffs to Mitchell or Booker.

He is in a very similar situation and in need of a better backcourt partner like a CP3 or a Conley Jr.

This is why I'm hoping for a sign Lowry and resign Theis off season.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

Yeah I’m really not on board with going into next depending on Coby White’s improvement to determine our fate. I’m still a big proponent of bringing Lonzo Ball as the PG, but Lowry on a two year would OK..

WindyCityBorn wrote:

BullChit wrote:

FanInTheAttic wrote:Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

I'd want to compare Zach in the Playoffs to Mitchell or Booker.

He is in a very similar situation and in need of a better backcourt partner like a CP3 or a Conley Jr.

This is why I'm hoping for a sign Lowry and resign Theis off season.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

Yeah I’m really not on board with going into next depending on Coby White’s improvement to determine our fate. I’m still a big proponent of bringing Lonzo Ball as the PG, but Lowry on a two year would OK..

Well the problem is Lonzo is not a PG you can build with. I don't know why so many people like you keep arguing he is a PG while he is definitely not.

I won't say you need to watch Pelicans games. But at least you can go fan forum of the Pelicans. They're saying the exact same thing that Bulls fans are saying for many years.

"We need a real point guard. We fuxxing need a legit one"

He's good as a 3&D wing. Not as a PG. He will get lots of money - maybe more than 20M annually - and he will be helpful. But he is not a savior PG since he is not a PG.

BullChit wrote:

FanInTheAttic wrote:Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

I'd want to compare Zach in the Playoffs to Mitchell or Booker.

He is in a very similar situation and in need of a better backcourt partner like a CP3 or a Conley Jr.

This is why I'm hoping for a sign Lowry and resign Theis off season.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

Mitchell already proved himself in his rookie year. He crushed the OKC in the playoffs facing against Russ & George without reliable PG.

FanInTheAttic wrote:Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

He's up there. His efficiency could improve, but he's not as veteran as some of these other guys like Lillard or KD and will improve.

http://www.82games.com/2021/CSORT11.HTM


It's kind of irrelevant because if the game is close, the Bulls are probably losing it. Most of this season was the Bulls making it a competitive game, Lavine scoring a ton of points to make it close, and the team finding creative ways of losing the game anyway.

dukeespn wrote:

WindyCityBorn wrote:

BullChit wrote:I'd want to compare Zach in the Playoffs to Mitchell or Booker.

He is in a very similar situation and in need of a better backcourt partner like a CP3 or a Conley Jr.

This is why I'm hoping for a sign Lowry and resign Theis off season.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

Yeah I’m really not on board with going into next depending on Coby White’s improvement to determine our fate. I’m still a big proponent of bringing Lonzo Ball as the PG, but Lowry on a two year would OK..

Well the problem is Lonzo is not a PG you can build with. I don't know why so many people like you keep arguing he is a PG while he is definitely not.

I won't say you need to watch Pelicans games. But at least you can go fan forum of the Pelicans. They're saying the exact same thing that Bulls fans are saying for many years.

"We need a real point guard. We fuxxing need a legit one"

He's good as a 3&D wing. Not as a PG. He will get lots of money - maybe more than 20M annually - and he will be helpful. But he is not a savior PG since he is not a PG.

Why can’t you build with him? He averages 6.5 asts for his career. That is much most point guards these days. What exactly about his game make him not a PG? Are you saying he lacks court vision and/or IQ?

dukeespn wrote:

BullChit wrote:

FanInTheAttic wrote:Even though Lavine improved his game last season and is an incredible scorer, I don't really consider him as a reliable clutch player until I see him succeed in the playoffs. I was watching Denver - Portland game 5 and found myself comparing Zach to Lillard, do you guys think that Zach could ever be a player of similar quality? At the moment I think he will never be a "Zach-time" player, but I really hope he surprises me next season.

I'd want to compare Zach in the Playoffs to Mitchell or Booker.

He is in a very similar situation and in need of a better backcourt partner like a CP3 or a Conley Jr.

This is why I'm hoping for a sign Lowry and resign Theis off season.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

Mitchell already proved himself in his rookie year. He crushed the OKC in the playoffs facing against Russ & George without reliable PG.

This is true but look at the team success this season with a legit PG out there with him.

The league is filled with amazing solo talent, particularly on the scoring end but it's balance in the team that brings the real success.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

dukeespn wrote:

CobyWhite0 wrote:

dukeespn wrote:FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Any list that says Luka is only the 10th best player in the NBA has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Plain and simple.

Not because your favorite player's name is missing?

And please tell me which players on the list are not better than LaVine.

I thought I wrote my post in very plain, simple to understand English. About LUKA.

NOT about "my favorite player", and NOT about LaVine.

To put it in simple cartoon terms:

Morty Smith: All right, let's just do this. I have English homework.

Rick Sanchez: You're still learning English? It's the language you speak.

I apologize if English isn't the language you speak.

WindyCityBorn wrote:

dukeespn wrote:

WindyCityBorn wrote:
Yeah I’m really not on board with going into next depending on Coby White’s improvement to determine our fate. I’m still a big proponent of bringing Lonzo Ball as the PG, but Lowry on a two year would OK..

Well the problem is Lonzo is not a PG you can build with. I don't know why so many people like you keep arguing he is a PG while he is definitely not.

I won't say you need to watch Pelicans games. But at least you can go fan forum of the Pelicans. They're saying the exact same thing that Bulls fans are saying for many years.

"We need a real point guard. We fuxxing need a legit one"

He's good as a 3&D wing. Not as a PG. He will get lots of money - maybe more than 20M annually - and he will be helpful. But he is not a savior PG since he is not a PG.

Why can’t you build with him? He averages 6.5 asts for his career. That is much most point guards these days. What exactly about his game make him not a PG? Are you saying he lacks court vision and/or IQ?

Most of his assists came from transition offense. He can’t create on halfcourt and you won’t get much transition possessions against good/great teams. Especially in the playoffs.

He can’t create on halfcourt since his ball-handling is not good enough to seperate himself from the defenders. You have to be a good ballhandler first to maximize BBIQ/court vision on halfcourt.

Unfortunately he’s a poor driver and can’t draw foul calls. Do I need to remind you that the Bulls already became one of the worst teams in temrs of getting foul calls after the Vuc trade? Also he can’t run PnR on halfcourt well while other reliable PGs are good at running PnR.

CobyWhite0 wrote:

dukeespn wrote:

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Any list that says Luka is only the 10th best player in the NBA has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Plain and simple.

Not because your favorite player's name is missing?

And please tell me which players on the list are not better than LaVine.

I thought I wrote my post in very plain, simple to understand English. About LUKA.

NOT about "my favorite player", and NOT about LaVine.

To put it in simple cartoon terms:

Morty Smith: All right, let's just do this. I have English homework.

Rick Sanchez: You're still learning English? It's the language you speak. How dumb are you?

Still can’t answer my question while you call me dumb lol. I’ll ask you again. Who are not better than LaVine among those on the top25 list?

And you think using those stupid emojis makes you look cool or what?

Thanks for all of the opinions. Seems that top-30 is safe ground. The problem with this is that if he's top-20, paying him a max contract is a no-brainer. It's not as clear if he's 21-30, a max contract is an issue.

transplant wrote:Thanks for all of the opinions. Seems that top-30 is safe ground. The problem with this is that if he's top-20, paying him a max contract is a no-brainer. It's not as clear if he's 21-30, a max contract is an issue.

IDK, I am as guilty as the next guy at basing my comfort with salary based on where I rank a guy.

The flipside, as I'm been told, is that, what if there just isn't much difference between #1 and #25 - it's not like there's a law that says the drop-off needs to be material. Can't a guy still be great, even if 24 other guys are?

There's also the notion that it's hard to find and get great players. So if you find one who is just entering his prime and show continuous improvement, maybe you "overpay" a little.

CobyWhite0 wrote:

dukeespn wrote:FWIW The Ringer writers don't think LaVine is a top 25 player in the league.

www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Any list that says Luka is only the 10th best player in the NBA has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Plain and simple.

luka doesn't shoot the ball well to date and isn't exactly known as a plus defender. both matter. a whole hell of a lot. and it's real, real hard to be taken seriously as a potential top 10 player if you're lacking both of those features. that luka is a borderline top 10 player is because he's so damn good in all the other areas

as for lavine, it's pretty clear to the rational mind that he's simply not an all-star caliber player. here are his player impact +/- numbers for the last 3 seasons:

+1.15 offense, -1.32 defense 2019
+1.82 offense, -1.45 defense 2020
+2.66 offense, -1.53 defense 2021

now, a single season sample is to be taken with a large grain of salt. a 2 season sample is pretty good for a guy who plays big minutes and stays healthy over 82 game seasons. which is not the case over the last 2 seasons, obviously, so we need a 3 season sample to inspire confidence. lavine's defense is pretty undeniably poor. the results are very consistent on that one. i do have a quibble with the offensive results. clearly he improved a lot more this season than he did the year before, but the results show a more steady improvement. clearly single season sample size issues. should his number for this season be larger? maybe a bit (particularly if clutch ability was factored in, which it's obviously not). but i think it's more that last season's number should have been a bit lower, putting it more in line with 2019. here are the top 25 offensively this season:

6.22 jokic
5.93 curry
5.46 lillard
4.76 doncic
4.58 young

4.49 harden
4.21 beal
4.06 kyrie
4.02 embiid
3.97 butler

3.88 lebron
3.88 zion
3.62 kawhi
3.59 giannis
3.36 tatum

3.24 durant
3.19 mitchell
3.04 KAT
2.98 mccollum
2.76 booker

2.71 derozan
2.66 george
2.66 lavine
2.57 kanter
2.54 cp3

an eminently reasonable outcome! there are inevitably a few outliers, however. i'd go with beal, tatum, mitchell and kanter as sample size beneficiaries. but even if lavine leapfrops those guys he's the #20 OFFENSIVE player in the league. wanna put him in the top 15? knock yourself out. but please, PLEASE don't pretend that that makes him a top 15 or even top 30 player overall. because that's just nonsense. defense matters. not as much as offense, obviously, but it matters. a lot

so where does lavine rank in the overall player impact +/- rankings (1500 minute minimum)? 56th. i'd bump him up a bit for aforementioned reasons, but is zach lavine a top 30 NBA player right now? it's pretty clear to me that he is not. top 10 scorer based on this season? yes. top 20 offensively based on this season? yes. but it requires willful ignorance of the importance of defense to put him in the top 30 as an all-around player. that's reality

and before the usual "but his teammates suck" crowd pipes up, this statistic controls for teammates. which is why his defense from an impact perspective continues to snort bath salts even though his team's defense has been pretty good the past 2 seasons (particularly when you consider that they've had to cover for lavine). if you claim that his offensive numbers would be better with an average offensive supporting cast, you also then have to acknowledge that his defensive numbers would be WORSE with an average defensive supporting cast. basically, you have no leg to stand on with that line of thinking

zach lavine, DESPITE his now elite scoring (which i have no reason to believe won't mostly hold up going forward) and DESPITE his impressive ability to deliver in the clutch, is merely a very good player. no amount of indignant homer wishful thinking changes that. and he's about to get maxed out, relegating the bulls to pretender status for the foreseeable future unless there's serious, inexplicable improvement in his defense/intangibles. or unless a minor miracle occurs and a genuine superstar decides to hitch his wagon to this mess. so if you're a die hard bulls fan, don't kill the messenger. instead, learn to cope with the reality