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IF True and CP3 opts out, do we.............

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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#41 » by Ctownbulls » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:13 pm

dougthonus wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Do we strip down enough to offer him the $100 over the 3 years it says

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2944098-nba-insiders-predict-huge-paydays-for-phoenix-suns-young-stars-cp3

I mean if Lonzo Ball is going to cost you $20M for 4-5 years isn't Paul for less a better option?
$33M a year really isn't that much and it's honestly only $56M over the 2 additional years added onto his $44M for next year. I would think he would opt in and go for free agency the following year and get the same 3 years. He doesn't appear to be in decline.

Vucevic, Lavine and Williams stay and they release Arcidiacono, buyout Young and Satoransky, Animnu for a SRP. That's $33M. I don't know the intricacies of trading for an exemption.

That's before any possible deal with Markkanen or moving him.

You've got Brown and Dotson under contract, maybe resign Theis and Temple



Really, really low odds of Paul maintaining his current level for two more seasons let alone three. Pretty good chance we see notable decline next year.

You won't be able to keep Theis or Temple in this scenario as you will need to renounce their cap holds. You might be able to get Temple back on the room MLE as a FA though. Doubt someone takes on Aminu for a 2nd rounder either, but you never know.


Even if he does maintain the productivity his body always seems to get run down come playoff time. It would be more of a move for mentorship, leadership and taking the next step in the teams progression but not a move that would take them over the top (unless they got a superstar as well).
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#42 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:21 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:For me it's not about going all in on a team with no prior playoff experience, it's about bringing in a respected vet with a HOF resume at a position of need who will help develop our young players and instill a winning mentality to a team that's used to losing. I know he's never won a ring, but he has a ton of playoff experience and has been around the block and the players will respect and listen to him. Kind of like the affect Thad has had, just way more.

Looking at what he did with the Thunder and Suns, he could really help to change the culture and accelerate the development of our young players. He would go a long way to cutting down or even eliminating all those close losses in crunch time that we're so prone to as well.

I don't see this as a short term move, I see it as investing in our future and a move that could potentially have a long term lasting impact on our team and our player's development.


Leadership and lessons can be instilled by assistant coaches that cost less than 1 million. People mistake "on court leadership" with "on court talent" a lot of times. Paul's value is being able to lead on the court by playing great basketball at the point guard position. There are a lot cheaper options than paying 35M on your cap to teach from the sidelines.

Recognizing that, if Paul doesn't perform near the value of his contract, he severely hamstrings you for the years he is unable to do that. There's a pretty significant risk that will happen immediately, starting next year, that you will pay 100M and waste all of it. There's a very significant risk you'd waste 2/3rds of it, and an extraordinarily high risk you'd waste 1/3rd of it.

Again, I'm not diametrically opposed to the idea. There is an argument to be made, but you need to understand that if Paul falls apart that there is no leadership he contributed that will sustainably help you to make this deal worth it. OKC and Houston didn't maintain any great value that he taught them after he left. His value is on the court, and when that goes away you are screwed.

If you hop in the Chris Paul boat, you're gambling on him staying healthy for as long as you sign him for.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#43 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:25 pm

HomoSapien wrote:My response was going to be similar to this. Trading for Paul isn't just about Paul, but it's about bringing respect back to this franchise and trying to maximize the rest of the roster. As long as he can give you two productive years, it's a win. The final year of his contract should be a tradeable asset or he simply just comes off the books and you make an attempt to re-tool the roster around Zach after Paul is gone.

Based on his current play, I think he has two years left in him if he remains healthy. It's a gamble, but it's the type of gamble I'm okay making. There aren't many players available in free-agency that move the needle. He's one of them.


How much value like that has he brought to OKC now that he's gone and his court value isn't there?

It looks like none to me. They were one of the worst teams in the league this year.

His value is based on what he does on the court. Once he's sitting on your books for 35M and Zach is on a 37M extension and Vuc is making 20M, you don't have any room left to do anything with any other players, so he isn't going to help bring in other talent.

Again, I'm okay taking the chance, but understand the value you get out of Paul is very much tied to his ability to play on the court. You aren't going to get any notable other value out of him. If you think he could play at this level for 2 years, it'd be a fun ride with him for two seasons, probably 2nd round playoff exits with shots at the ECF if he were able to have a healthy playoff run (obviously there is high risk with his health based on both his age and history).

I don't think it's a move that puts us over the top or leaves us room to really get over the top, but that isn't relevant to me. There is no reasonable move that puts us over the top. We're way too far away. This move does give us a shot to make the ride more fun for a very short time before we have to rip the whole thing apart, I'd be okay with that, you already choose that option when you picked Vuc.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#44 » by MissileMike » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:33 pm

I say yes, here's why:
1. His game is based more on his brain than athleticism.
2. Everywhere he goes, teams win.
3. Cam Payne credits Paul for his improvement. Imagine what he'd do for Coby.
4. I don't see any better alternatives. If he declines, it is only a 3 year deal.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#45 » by Wingy » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:40 pm

He’ll resign with Phoenix. They’re not that dumb. Waste of typing time.

That aside, I think he’s easily worth 3/100.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#46 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:48 pm

Wingy wrote:He’ll resign with Phoenix. They’re not that dumb. Waste of typing time.

That aside, I think he’s easily worth 3/100.


He doesn't need to opt out to sign with Phoenix, and if the idea is to get 3/100, then Phoenix would be better off extending him without an opt out, because it would lessen their cap hit in future years.

The only reason to opt out is to apply leverage because the deal isn't getting done otherwise without another team applying pressure to Phoenix to force their hand.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#47 » by kodo » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:05 pm

CP3 absolutely adds to winning, but we're not just adding CP3. We are losing half the team and replacing them with min players like Makoka.

Generating $33M in cap space requires
- Renouncing Lauri Markkanen
- Waiving Thad
- Waiving Sato
- Renouncing Theis
- Renouncing Temple

Is CP3 good? He's damn good. Is he 50.3 ppg 22.7 rpg 13.9 apg 3.8 spg 2.2 bpg good? No, he's not quite that good.

If we were just sitting on $33M of cap and with nothing to do with it, CP3 would be a no brainer. We're nowhere close to that kind of situation. Or if Phoenix is willing to take back some salary so we don't have to lose as many guys that would work, but I don't know why Phoenix would help CP3 leave their team.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#48 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 7:41 pm

One interesting thing about this type of decision (whether it is CP3 or someone else), the guarantee date on Thad/Sato is prior to the season officially ending (in a normal year, june 30th), so we need to decide whether we are guaranteeing these guys prior to knowing whether people will sign for us or not.

The result is we will almost certainly guarantee both, but we can also probably trade both into cap space given how much cap room is out there and the lack of FAs available if we need to.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#49 » by CobyWhite0 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 7:59 pm

kodo wrote:CP3 absolutely adds to winning, but we're not just adding CP3. We are losing half the team and replacing them with min players like Makoka.

Generating $33M in cap space requires
- Renouncing Lauri Markkanen
- Waiving Thad
- Waiving Sato
- Renouncing Theis
- Renouncing Temple

Is CP3 good? He's damn good. Is he 50.3 ppg 22.7 rpg 13.9 apg 3.8 spg 2.2 bpg good? No, he's not quite that good.

If we were just sitting on $33M of cap and with nothing to do with it, CP3 would be a no brainer. We're nowhere close to that kind of situation. Or if Phoenix is willing to take back some salary so we don't have to lose as many guys that would work, but I don't know why Phoenix would help CP3 leave their team.


I'm not for giving CP3 a 3yr/$100 million deal, but if we decide to operate under the cap this summer, there are dozens of players out there better than Mokoka who play for the minimum each and every season. This is a partial list of guys playing for the minimum this season:

Marc Gasol
Melo
Dwight Howard
Jeff Green
E'Twaun Moore
Markieff Morris
Reggie Jackson
Bismack Biyombo
Hassan Whiteside
Kent Bazemore
Taj Gibson
Cameron Payne
Raul Neto
Torrey Craig
Monte Morris
Kendrick Nunn
Gafford
Talen Horton-Tucker
Ersan Ilyasova
Ben McLemore

If we can add a 3rd All-Star (CP3 or not) to Zach and Vuc, we'll have better players willing to sign here for the minimum - especially when they know they can get playing time here.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#50 » by MrSparkle » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:49 pm

Wingy wrote:He’ll resign with Phoenix. They’re not that dumb. Waste of typing time.

That aside, I think he’s easily worth 3/100.


Yeah. There really isn’t a young replacement who could fill Paul’s shoes in PHX. I wouldn’t want to be the team relying on a 35yo PG, but if he can hang in for a Manu/Nash/Stockton/Kidd 35-38 run, Suns have no better option. Dunno why they wouldn’t give him the 100m, unless he bombs the 2nd round.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#51 » by MrFortune3 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:59 pm

dougthonus wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Do we strip down enough to offer him the $100 over the 3 years it says

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2944098-nba-insiders-predict-huge-paydays-for-phoenix-suns-young-stars-cp3

I mean if Lonzo Ball is going to cost you $20M for 4-5 years isn't Paul for less a better option?
$33M a year really isn't that much and it's honestly only $56M over the 2 additional years added onto his $44M for next year. I would think he would opt in and go for free agency the following year and get the same 3 years. He doesn't appear to be in decline.

Vucevic, Lavine and Williams stay and they release Arcidiacono, buyout Young and Satoransky, Animnu for a SRP. That's $33M. I don't know the intricacies of trading for an exemption.

That's before any possible deal with Markkanen or moving him.

You've got Brown and Dotson under contract, maybe resign Theis and Temple



Really, really low odds of Paul maintaining his current level for two more seasons let alone three. Pretty good chance we see notable decline next year.

You won't be able to keep Theis or Temple in this scenario as you will need to renounce their cap holds. You might be able to get Temple back on the room MLE as a FA though. Doubt someone takes on Aminu for a 2nd rounder either, but you never know.


Even if you do though, on a team like the Suns where he is mostly the facilitator and initiator on offense where he can be the 3rd option scoring, it's fine.

The Suns are going to be paying him as much for his level of play as they are for his leadership and impact.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#52 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 9:57 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:Even if you do though, on a team like the Suns where he is mostly the facilitator and initiator on offense where he can be the 3rd option scoring, it's fine.

The Suns are going to be paying him as much for his level of play as they are for his leadership and impact.


Leadership has very little value if it isn't backed up by strong play. Thad has great leadership, but you sure as hell wouldn't pay him 3/100. People vastly, vastly overrate the value of leadership when unaccompanied by great on court play. Leadership combined with great court play is worth a lot, but if Paul can't deliver on the 2nd, then the value of that drops a ton.

Most players, especially at PG, are going to slip massively defensively as their physical attributes decline, and we have already seen that Paul has a long, long history of being unable to make it through the season which will also be exacerbated at an older age.

Again, I'm not totally against Chris Paul, but there are very significant risks here, and hiding them away by saying things like he will still bring leadership even if he isn't as good simply isn't ignoring those risks. You only bring him in if you believe he will remain healthy and a high impact on court player for at least two seasons IMO. You could probably eat one final season if you had to if he helps you a lot for two years (though some people wouldn't like this as it is a road to nowhere unless you think he can push you over the top, but I don't mind the road to no where, because it's a road to enjoying two years of basketball and no move is likely to push us over the top).
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#53 » by TheStig » Fri Jun 4, 2021 10:17 pm

kodo wrote:CP3 absolutely adds to winning, but we're not just adding CP3. We are losing half the team and replacing them with min players like Makoka.

Generating $33M in cap space requires
- Renouncing Lauri Markkanen
- Waiving Thad
- Waiving Sato
- Renouncing Theis
- Renouncing Temple

Is CP3 good? He's damn good. Is he 50.3 ppg 22.7 rpg 13.9 apg 3.8 spg 2.2 bpg good? No, he's not quite that good.

If we were just sitting on $33M of cap and with nothing to do with it, CP3 would be a no brainer. We're nowhere close to that kind of situation. Or if Phoenix is willing to take back some salary so we don't have to lose as many guys that would work, but I don't know why Phoenix would help CP3 leave their team.

That's a great point. What max player has ever generated that stat line? Why would anyone ever sign a max player by gettting rid of lesser players?

The most likely scenairo is that you do a sign and trade for CP3. You can trade some (not all of those guys) and remain an over the cap team to use the MLE.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#54 » by MrFortune3 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 11:37 pm

dougthonus wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:Even if you do though, on a team like the Suns where he is mostly the facilitator and initiator on offense where he can be the 3rd option scoring, it's fine.

The Suns are going to be paying him as much for his level of play as they are for his leadership and impact.


Leadership has very little value if it isn't backed up by strong play. Thad has great leadership, but you sure as hell wouldn't pay him 3/100. People vastly, vastly overrate the value of leadership when unaccompanied by great on court play. Leadership combined with great court play is worth a lot, but if Paul can't deliver on the 2nd, then the value of that drops a ton.

Most players, especially at PG, are going to slip massively defensively as their physical attributes decline, and we have already seen that Paul has a long, long history of being unable to make it through the season which will also be exacerbated at an older age.

Again, I'm not totally against Chris Paul, but there are very significant risks here, and hiding them away by saying things like he will still bring leadership even if he isn't as good simply isn't ignoring those risks. You only bring him in if you believe he will remain healthy and a high impact on court player for at least two seasons IMO. You could probably eat one final season if you had to if he helps you a lot for two years (though some people wouldn't like this as it is a road to nowhere unless you think he can push you over the top, but I don't mind the road to no where, because it's a road to enjoying two years of basketball and no move is likely to push us over the top).


Thad has never been a CP3 level player though. Even with CP3 slipping he's gone from franchise player to superstar now more of a star level player. That's probably him for the next 2 years, he's a star player that continues to elevate his team around him.
Leadership from a guy like CP3 is definitely important. He's probably just a solid play at the 3rd or 4th year of that deal, but the impact of having him help push Booker and Ayton into the next tier of player and guiding them into becoming guys who can meet expectations and not shy away from those moments is big.

The Suns would have been a solid team without CP3, they had already started that process in the bubble. But he elevated them to another level and having him for the next 2-4 years will only help the Suns.
His impact on say the Bulls would be different. Still will elevate the team but his role and structure on offense would be different.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#55 » by dougthonus » Sat Jun 5, 2021 2:47 am

MrFortune3 wrote:Thad has never been a CP3 level player though. Even with CP3 slipping he's gone from franchise player to superstar now more of a star level player. That's probably him for the next 2 years, he's a star player that continues to elevate his team around him.
Leadership from a guy like CP3 is definitely important. He's probably just a solid play at the 3rd or 4th year of that deal, but the impact of having him help push Booker and Ayton into the next tier of player and guiding them into becoming guys who can meet expectations and not shy away from those moments is big.

The Suns would have been a solid team without CP3, they had already started that process in the bubble. But he elevated them to another level and having him for the next 2-4 years will only help the Suns.
His impact on say the Bulls would be different. Still will elevate the team but his role and structure on offense would be different.


If Chris Paul had the on court ability of Arcidacano with the his leadership abilities, then how valuable would he be? Probably about as valuable as Archidacano (or not very valuable at all).

If he stays at a star level for two more years and solid for a 3rd year, then that's probably fine. I think that's a very optimistic view of what Chris Paul will bring over the next three seasons, but if he hits those metrics, I agree that 3/100 would be fine.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#56 » by Just_Bullz » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:29 am

No. Take a chill pill.

Suns are having a last season's Heats vibe where everyone is salivating over them.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#57 » by Am2626 » Sun Jun 6, 2021 2:36 am

HomoSapien wrote:Here's the exact quote if anyone's interested:

Paul has a $44.4 million player option, which according to several sources, he intends to decline with hopes of inking a new multiyear deal (perhaps in the $100 million range over three seasons). It's unclear if his recent shoulder injury changes his plans. Gordon Hayward, who has battled more severe injuries than Paul, made a similar decision this past offseason, opting out of his final year with the Boston Celtics to sign a four-year, $120 million contract with the Charlotte Hornets.


If we can get Paul for that, I don't know how we don't do it. Sure it's a lot of money, but it's only a three-year deal and with Vuc and Zach it doesn't make sense to do anything but try to go for it. Hopefully playing with those guys plus his old coach Donovan is appealing.

We'd need two things to happen for this scenario to be possible:

1.) Suns get bounced early. A Lakers comeback really helps this case.
2.) The notoriously cheap Suns to balk at giving Paul the kind of money he seeks.

Anyone know if Donovan and Paul had a good relationship?


I don’t see why CP3 would want to come to the Bulls. He would be a great addition to this team but he’s already in a better situation in Phoenix. More realistic targets are Lowry, Rose, Schroeder, or Lonzo. If Utah gets bounced this round maybe Conley Jr. is an option.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#58 » by Trm3 » Sun Jun 6, 2021 3:08 am

kulaz3000 wrote:I'd be all for Chris Paul as an option if he is looking to give us a chance.

Sure, he is old and injury prone, but he is an all-time great as far as leadership goes, and he would make us a contender like he has for the Suns. Not to mention, if we do somehow retain Coby in this scenario, I know those two have a good relationship, and he could do wonders for his game and player development.

That said, if we do go with Chris Paul and he is happy to sign with us, we would need a capable point guard to have as a backup, because you know that Chris Paul is going to go down at some point in the season, ideally during the regular season and not the playoffs.

I'd be all in for Paul.

We don't have to go back too far to recognize what good/great point guard play could do for us.

2017 playoffs with Rondo, Wade, and Butler. We went up 2-0 against the Celtics and Rondo controlled every aspect of those first 2 games then he got hurt. We dominated with him and were lost without him. Paul being a better shooter would do wonders for us, again.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#59 » by HomoSapien » Sun Jun 6, 2021 10:13 pm

Am2626 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Here's the exact quote if anyone's interested:

Paul has a $44.4 million player option, which according to several sources, he intends to decline with hopes of inking a new multiyear deal (perhaps in the $100 million range over three seasons). It's unclear if his recent shoulder injury changes his plans. Gordon Hayward, who has battled more severe injuries than Paul, made a similar decision this past offseason, opting out of his final year with the Boston Celtics to sign a four-year, $120 million contract with the Charlotte Hornets.


If we can get Paul for that, I don't know how we don't do it. Sure it's a lot of money, but it's only a three-year deal and with Vuc and Zach it doesn't make sense to do anything but try to go for it. Hopefully playing with those guys plus his old coach Donovan is appealing.

We'd need two things to happen for this scenario to be possible:

1.) Suns get bounced early. A Lakers comeback really helps this case.
2.) The notoriously cheap Suns to balk at giving Paul the kind of money he seeks.

Anyone know if Donovan and Paul had a good relationship?


I don’t see why CP3 would want to come to the Bulls. He would be a great addition to this team but he’s already in a better situation in Phoenix. More realistic targets are Lowry, Rose, Schroeder, or Lonzo. If Utah gets bounced this round maybe Conley Jr. is an option.


Money. That's the premise we're going off, that Paul is looking for one more pay day and the notoriously cheap Suns may balk.
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Re: IF True and CP3 opts out, do we............. 

Post#60 » by HomoSapien » Sun Jun 6, 2021 10:29 pm

dougthonus wrote:
How much value like that has he brought to OKC now that he's gone and his court value isn't there?

It looks like none to me. They were one of the worst teams in the league this year.


They had five returning players, and all five had career seasons. OKC is looking to rebuild, their goals are theoretically different than ours if we plan on keeping Zach long-term.

His value is based on what he does on the court. Once he's sitting on your books for 35M and Zach is on a 37M extension and Vuc is making 20M, you don't have any room left to do anything with any other players, so he isn't going to help bring in other talent.


To me his value is two-fold.

1.) He makes the players you have on your roster look better than they are (which increases their future trade value).

2. I believe there's a chance that he'd be able to attract some ring chasers to the team.
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