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Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG

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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#81 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:22 pm

League Circles wrote:The fact that we should have obviously traded Thad doesn't impact whether we should keep him now or not.


Of course, we should do the best thing now, but the best thing now was known at the deadline. So if they choose to not trade Thad/Sato at the deadline and then realize three months later the best thing to do is operate under the cap, then they are a god awful front office. It doesn't mean we shouldn't operate under the cap if that is the best thing, but the fact they didn't see that coming three months ago means they have absolutely no foresight or planning.

That said, I think they knew this exactly and simply planned to operate over the cap.

BTW I had not heard of an offer of a 20s first and expiring are you just speculating or was that reported? If AK passed on that........just wow.


Speculating. There was a lot of reporting that there was significant league wide interest in Thad, 20s 1sts are very low value currency and aren't valued notably around the league, so putting those two points together it seems highly likely that such an offer would have been on the table.

I think the way to proceed at this sad point is to trade Thad, once and for all, almost certainly for a PG like Dragic or Rubio who also only have one year left, or maybe for their SF equivalent to spell Patrick.

The reason being, although neither are special, the ability to resign Theis and/or Lauri cannot be squandered IMO. We simply don't have enough talent/assets to justify losing BOTH of those guys and rolling with one year of 32 year old Thad.


I don't think you let either of those guys go due to Thad being here. You let them go only if you plan to preserve cap space in 2022. That said, it seems pretty clear they don't value Lauri.

I simply believe it's unjustifiable to return this roster plus an MLE and a sound round rookie. Yuck. I do admit that going under the cap is risky and could easily yield a worse outcome, but I think keeping the roster + MLE is just so sure to not move the needle.


The hope is that an off-season and training would move the needle, my hope is keep cap open in 2022, trade Arci + Aminu + Cash for Rubio, try and find the best 1 year big man you can at the MLE, and then hope to sign a star next year with your 42M in cap room and two stars on the roster. Slim hope, but I have yet to hear a plan that is more likely to vault the team into top 10 than this one.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#82 » by sco » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:31 pm

thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.

While I agree with the assessment, what is your source for that?
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#83 » by sco » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:37 pm

Bulldog23 wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.


I like what your saying, but Coby can defend 1 to 3 and scores on three levels, plus assists...I believe he fits that positionless basketball you mentioned. He is just inexperienced.

Coby tries at defense, but he is too slow/has slow recognition and lacks the length to defend all but the slowest guys. Coby's ceiling, IMO, is a low-end starting SG. He lacks the (aforementioned) speed and vision to ever be an effective PG. I really want him traded this offseason as I still think we could salvage a late 1st, which won't be his value by next trade deadline. Despite all of that, he's a decent back-up SG, it's just that we can replace that production with a guy making $5 million, who's value won't be declining (because it's already low).
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#84 » by MGB8 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:35 pm

Bulls have Theis' bird rights, with a cap hold at 9.5M, so I don't think we have to burn an exception to retain him.

I also don't think that the Bulls have a huge issue at forward or wing, although I do think that they would ideally want to upgrade from Temple (hence my Lauri-for-Derozan sign-and-trade-swap idea, since I think Derozan is a under-valued do to his passable-at-best defense and limited 3 pt shooting ability as compared to his overall impact, and so a guy that should be worth at today's inflated rates close to 30 mil per year for up to 3 seasons will probably only get around 20M per year).

But, regardless, I think we look at positions wrong, generally.

There are 4 positions in the NBA, IMO - Guard, Wing, Forward, Center/Big.

There are also folks who are athletically versatile enough to play two (or 3) of those positions well, or "tweaners" who are primarily one position - maybe not an elite level - but also can be passable at another.

lineups vary, but include: G, W, W, F, C .... G, G, W, F, C .... G,W,F,F,C or even looking for "hybrids", including the 80's and early 90's style G, G/W, W/F, F/C, C.

Coby is the only non-scrub true G --- but he isn't close to showing lead ball handler skills, much less "true point" skills. LaVine is a G/W. Brown is a W (though he may have versatility to pass at guard and some at forward). Sato is a G/W. Temple is a W. Pat is either a F or a W/F (or F/W, really). That is a F/C at this point. Theis is a F/C. Vuc is a C. Lauri, though generally not expected back, is F. Aminu, who most expect to be waive-and-stretched given that he couldn't get burn at the end of the season, is a F.

Even if Theis doesn't come back, the Bulls start with a depth chart of:

G - Coby, Sato (even though he's a G/W)
G/W - LaVine, Brown
W/F - Pat, (Brown)
F - Thad, Aminu
C - Vucevic, (Thad)

If Aminu continues to recover and can play closer to what he played pre-injury in Orlando and Portland, that's already an 8 deep rotation of playable guys. It's just not ideal at F where Thad is best used as a reserve, and relies a lot on Pat at the 3 (and Brown at the 2 and 3).
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#85 » by MGB8 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:42 pm

sco wrote:
Bulldog23 wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.


I like what your saying, but Coby can defend 1 to 3 and scores on three levels, plus assists...I believe he fits that positionless basketball you mentioned. He is just inexperienced.

Coby tries at defense, but he is too slow/has slow recognition and lacks the length to defend all but the slowest guys. Coby's ceiling, IMO, is a low-end starting SG. He lacks the (aforementioned) speed and vision to ever be an effective PG. I really want him traded this offseason as I still think we could salvage a late 1st, which won't be his value by next trade deadline. Despite all of that, he's a decent back-up SG, it's just that we can replace that production with a guy making $5 million, who's value won't be declining (because it's already low).


I'm not sure that I agree with that, at least not completely. I'm not saying you are wrong, either - Coby just hasn't proven to me that he *physically* can't be a solid or even plus defender of guard spots, a la the Murray's or Derrick White or Delon Wright. I'm not sure how much is mental... and given that he is a willing defender, if it is largely mental / technique related, how much he can actually fix.

That's honestly the biggest question with him. If he can become a solid or even plus defender, then he can be a starter on the right team (with a facilitator at the 2 or 3) and/or a high level 6th man. If not...

As for facilitation ability, right now he's two steps behind Devonte Graham. Graham is better at getting to his spots on the floor (better combined handle and short area footspeed) and Graham has a step better vision. HOWEVER, those are also things where Coby *could* theoretically become just as good as Graham is with experience - improving his handle over time (which should happen), and become more and more aware of passing angles and opportunities with greater experience - where Coby is much younger than Graham.

Neither is good at finishing inside (Coby is actually a touch better if I recall the stats right). Of course, ideally Graham would also be a 6th man / 3rd guard.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#86 » by leo921 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:16 pm

I think Duncan Robinson or Kendrick Nunn can really help us.

Robinson is a solid passer(nothing fancy), team defender, and an amazing shooter. Now when teams try to double Lavine or Vuch You can have Robinson out there killing them from 3 or attacking a scrambling defense. Cna play that Joe Harris role but as a PG, keep things spread out and make life easier for Lavine, Vuch and Williams by spreading the floor. For the amount of cap room we have Robinson is very gettable and would make us better.

Nunn is a solid passer, (nothing fancy), solid team and man defender, streaky shooter and can drive to the basket. Still developing as a player. Think he can really help on both D and hit shots on offense , provide a bigger impact for us then Ball
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#87 » by sco » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:38 pm

leo921 wrote:I think Duncan Robinson or Kendrick Nunn can really help us.

Robinson is a solid passer(nothing fancy), team defender, and an amazing shooter. Now when teams try to double Lavine or Vuch You can have Robinson out there killing them from 3 or attacking a scrambling defense. Cna play that Joe Harris role but as a PG, keep things spread out and make life easier for Lavine, Vuch and Williams by spreading the floor. For the amount of cap room we have Robinson is very gettable and would make us better.

Nunn is a solid passer, (nothing fancy), solid team and man defender, streaky shooter and can drive to the basket. Still developing as a player. Think he can really help on both D and hit shots on offense , provide a bigger impact for us then Ball

If we operate over the cap, I wouldn't mind either guy for the MLE.

That said, I see both as role players, as such, I would rather get Bullock and/or Burks who I think better fits, and may come cheaper due to age. I don't like to tie up big $ on role players.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#88 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:28 pm

Bulldog23 wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.


I like what your saying, but Coby can defend 1 to 3 and scores on three levels, plus assists...I believe he fits that positionless basketball you mentioned. He is just inexperienced.
Coby can defend 1 through 3? Is that why we're so desperate to improve our PG defense?

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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#89 » by sco » Wed Jun 9, 2021 7:40 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
Bulldog23 wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.


I like what your saying, but Coby can defend 1 to 3 and scores on three levels, plus assists...I believe he fits that positionless basketball you mentioned. He is just inexperienced.
Coby can defend 1 through 3? Is that why we're so desperate to improve our PG defense?

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Maybe 1-3 is out of a 10 point scale.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#90 » by thedarkstark » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:29 pm

sco wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.

While I agree with the assessment, what is your source for that?


He's mentioned at least a few times that he really values versatile 2 way players, when he was hired and when he drafted Pat. His moves thus far also back that up.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#91 » by drosestruts » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:46 pm

leo921 wrote:I think Duncan Robinson or Kendrick Nunn can really help us.

Robinson is a solid passer(nothing fancy), team defender, and an amazing shooter. Now when teams try to double Lavine or Vuch You can have Robinson out there killing them from 3 or attacking a scrambling defense. Cna play that Joe Harris role but as a PG, keep things spread out and make life easier for Lavine, Vuch and Williams by spreading the floor. For the amount of cap room we have Robinson is very gettable and would make us better.

Nunn is a solid passer, (nothing fancy), solid team and man defender, streaky shooter and can drive to the basket. Still developing as a player. Think he can really help on both D and hit shots on offense , provide a bigger impact for us then Ball


I like Nunn - I don't think Miami is letting go of Robinson. With Nunn, and I've advocated for him at times this offseason, he's basically just a more efficient Coby White.

They're both primarily just scorers who don't offer too much else right now.

If they were Pokemon Nunn would the middle evolution of Coby White. Increased efficiency with decreased turnovers. If Coby added other elements to his game (getting to the line, better passer) he becomes a fully evolved guard.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#92 » by SHO'NUFF » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:45 pm

Bulls need to add 3 new quality starters.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#93 » by DuckIII » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:43 pm

thedarkstark wrote:
sco wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:This is incorrect. The reason they're so high on Ball is because he's a versatile lengthy defender who can slide around and play minutes at the 2 and 3 if necessary. Thats also why they like, Thad, Theis, Temple, TBJ, and Willams and why they cut bait with Carter & Lauri. Theyre also not very keen on sato or coby, dont be surprised if they're gone by next offseason.

AK has made it clear he thinks the future of the league is positionless basketball and he covets players who are versatile.

While I agree with the assessment, what is your source for that?


He's mentioned at least a few times that he really values versatile 2 way players, when he was hired and when he drafted Pat. His moves thus far also back that up.


I don’t have any reason to dispute that he wants two way multi-position players. But his main move to date in which he gave away significant assets he could have used on two way multi position players, was to acquire a pure offense-only 5.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#94 » by Lexluthor » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:26 am

I hope the Bulls go after Demar Derozan. He would help Zach Lavine a lot . Plus he averaged 7 assist a game last year . Lonzo only averaged 5.7 assist a game last year
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#95 » by nomorezorro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:27 am

my perspective is less "pg is/isn't our biggest need" and more "we should be super flexible with the options we consider for roster building." the team wasn't very good last season, and the free agent market isn't very good this summer. barring significant internal improvement, we're not a plug+play non-star pg away from being a mid-tier playoff team, and we're probably going to have to go bargain-hunting to address at least one need.

the way i see it, we've got two firm pieces (zach and vucevic) and everything else is subject to change. considering our all-star foundation of very good scorers who suck at defense, i am sympathetic to the idea that good floor-spacing defensive wings (including one we can play at pf) are a bigger need than a pg. but ultimately, which position you choose to invest the most resources in should be shaped less by "what's our biggest need?" and "who can we actually add who will have the biggest impact?"

as for how we maneuver to cover our needs: i think we should be willing to cut bait with almost anyone on our roster to make room for pieces that make more sense with our two-man core. i love thad, but he's a luxury; if you can trade him and use that move to find a more complementary player, do it. same with coby.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#96 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:58 am

nomorezorro wrote:my perspective is less "pg is/isn't our biggest need" and more "we should be super flexible with the options we consider for roster building." the team wasn't very good last season, and the free agent market isn't very good this summer. barring significant internal improvement, we're not a plug+play non-star pg away from being a mid-tier playoff team, and we're probably going to have to go bargain-hunting to address at least one need.

the way i see it, we've got two firm pieces (zach and vucevic) and everything else is subject to change. considering our all-star foundation of very good scorers who suck at defense, i am sympathetic to the idea that good floor-spacing defensive wings (including one we can play at pf) are a bigger need than a pg. but ultimately, which position you choose to invest the most resources in should be shaped less by "what's our biggest need?" and "who can we actually add who will have the biggest impact?"

as for how we maneuver to cover our needs: i think we should be willing to cut bait with almost anyone on our roster to make room for pieces that make more sense with our two-man core. i love thad, but he's a luxury; if you can trade him and use that move to find a more complementary player, do it. same with coby.


I posted something like this in another thread, but when our 2 all-stars who suck at defense were on the floor together (378 minutes), the team's defensive rating was 110.7 - which would rank 9th in the league in Def Rtg.

When our 2 All-Stars who suck at defense were on the floor with the even-worse-defender Coby, the team's Defensive Rating was 105.0 - the Lakers lead the league in defense with a 106.8 Def Rtg.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#97 » by thedarkstark » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:00 am

DuckIII wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:
sco wrote:While I agree with the assessment, what is your source for that?


He's mentioned at least a few times that he really values versatile 2 way players, when he was hired and when he drafted Pat. His moves thus far also back that up.


I don’t have any reason to dispute that he wants two way multi-position players. But his main move to date in which he gave away significant assets he could have used on two way multi position players, was to acquire a pure offense-only 5.


Ask yourself this: how many top 10ish C's fit that description and how many of them were available to be had or are likely available in the next year or so?

Embiid is a beast but obviously untouchable.
Jokic also untouchable and shares some of the same limitations as Vuc.
Ayton is pretty solid on both ends but not a standout at any one particular thing, definitely not a 4, also probably not gettable.
Gobert is an all-world defender but basically just a rim-runner offensively, also untouchable.
KAT is/was likely to be available and is a beast offensively but not a great defender and can't play the 4.

Vuc is a bit limited defensively but he is very versatile offensively in that he can stretch the floor, dominate in the paint, and is an excellent passer. Jarret Allen and john collins maybe the only guys who project to be a top-tier versatile C that Bulls may actually may have had a chance at acquiring in the future, but even that maybe in doubt depending on how far their teams go in the playoffs.

Let's be real C is a pretty weak position around the league right now, and most of the best players at the position are pretty limited in one facet or another, you can't fault AK, he's working with the tools he has.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#98 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:10 am

thedarkstark wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:
He's mentioned at least a few times that he really values versatile 2 way players, when he was hired and when he drafted Pat. His moves thus far also back that up.


I don’t have any reason to dispute that he wants two way multi-position players. But his main move to date in which he gave away significant assets he could have used on two way multi position players, was to acquire a pure offense-only 5.


Ask yourself this: how many top 10ish C's fit that description and how many of them were available to be had or are likely available in the next year or so?

Embiid is a beast but obviously untouchable.
Jokic also untouchable and shares some of the same limitations as Vuc.
Ayton is pretty solid on both ends but not a standout at any one particular thing, definitely not a 4, also probably not gettable.
Gobert is an all-world defender but basically just a rim-runner offensively, also untouchable.
KAT is/was likely to be available and is a beast offensively but not a great defender and can't play the 4.

Vuc is a bit limited defensively but he is very versatile offensively in that he can stretch the floor, dominate in the paint, and is an excellent passer. Jarret Allen and john collins maybe the only guys who project to be a top-tier versatile C that Bulls may actually may have had a chance at acquiring in the future, but even that maybe in doubt depending on how far their teams go in the playoffs.

Let's be real C is a pretty weak position around the league right now, and most of the best players at the position are pretty limited in one facet or another, you can't fault AK, he's working with the tools he has.


Even though AK is looking for 2-way players, he certainly wouldn't hesitate to put Rodman next to Vuc.

And +1 to the "most of the best players at the (center) position are pretty limited in one facet or another". Gobert possesses very little offensive skills, Jokic isn't much of a defender, and Embiid can't stay healthy.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#99 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 pm

I wonder how much Tacko Fall would cost. I have liked him since college. I see situational value in him.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#100 » by Little Nathan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:40 pm

sco wrote:I wonder how much Tacko Fall would cost. I have liked him since college. I see situational value in him.


It’s obviously the minimum, but he’s not an NBA player. Just unplayable outside of garbage time.
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