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Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG

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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#21 » by DuckIII » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:44 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I guess I don't agree with the premise of the thread. I think PG is pretty far and away the most important need.

You mention the Gafford trade looks poorly. Gafford didn't change as a player in 3 months time. He got more opportunity and can successfully run pick and rolls with a point guard that can get him the ball where he can succeed.

A great passing point guard is a little like a great QB. They're going to elevate everyone around them. Getting a great power forward and watching Coby White attempt to throw him the ball in the post or watch a pick and roll go nowhere isn't a successful approach IMO. Coby and Zach don't have the vision or ballhandling ability to do this. The Bulls were one of the worst teams in turnovers in the league. They desperately need someone that can manage the offense, and get the ball to guys in spots where they can do damage.


Bingo.

Hierarchy of Bulls needs:

1. Point guard.










2. Power Forward, maybe.

Small forward not listed at all.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#22 » by HearshotKDS » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:03 pm

Disagree in that I think PG is pretty clearly the biggest need for the team. But I do think that the question "what kind of PF makes Ball/Lavine/Williams/?/Vuc anything more than the 2021 version of the Joe Johnson Hawks?" is interesting.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#23 » by dougthonus » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:15 pm

sco wrote:We have Lauri under team control and can go over the cap to keep Theis. If we lose both, there are a fair number of PF/C FA's like Collins, Noel, Whiteside, Howard, Holmes, Harrell, Olynyk out there to supplement our needs.


As noted above, I expect we won't keep Theis or Lauri. If we do, then things will be different.

We don't have much in the way of resources, so if we add any of the guys you mentioned we will not have room to also add an upgrade at PG IMO.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#24 » by TheJordanRule » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:17 pm

dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:We have Lauri under team control and can go over the cap to keep Theis. If we lose both, there are a fair number of PF/C FA's like Collins, Noel, Whiteside, Howard, Holmes, Harrell, Olynyk out there to supplement our needs.


As noted above, I expect we won't keep Theis or Lauri. If we do, then things will be different.

We don't have much in the way of resources, so if we add any of the guys you mentioned we will not have room to also add an upgrade at PG IMO.


Noel and Whiteside might sign for cheap. They were backups last season, playing fairly minor roles.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#25 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:20 pm

I think if anything, power forward/small forward (depending on what you think Pat is) is probably where the Bulls get low cost players.

They need a defensive minded player, and if they can hit a shot, all the better. But the offense is coming from Lavine and Vuc, let's figure the rest out.

They aren't sexy guys, but these guys would be relatively low cost options that would bolster the defense

Noel (led the entire league in DBPM)
Millsap
Craig
Oubre
Theis (hopefully they re-sign him)
Harrell
Holmes

Not sure if all those guys can play power forward, but that's kind of the level of player/skillset I think they should be looking for.
If they can sign and trade for Ball, re-sign Theis, and add Noel, the team to me is looking a lot more fleshed out (I guess let's assume they need to drop Lauri/Thad and Sato to do so)

Ball/White/Arch
Lavine/White
Pat Williams/TBJ
Noel/Theis
Vucevic/Noel

That's kind of it. And really you're hoping that Billy can take Ball and Pat to the next level, and this team can be a 4-6 seed, convincing Lavine to stay after next year.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#26 » by Little Nathan » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:26 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:They aren't sexy guys, but these guys would be relatively low cost options that would bolster the defense

Noel (led the entire league in DBPM)
Millsap
Craig
Oubre
Theis (hopefully they re-sign him)
Harrell
Holmes


Harrell is a horrible defender, one of the worst bigs in the league at that. The Lakers preferred to go with the corpse of Marc Gasol and whatever the hell Andre Drummond is.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#27 » by dougthonus » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:27 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I guess I don't agree with the premise of the thread. I think PG is pretty far and away the most important need.

You mention the Gafford trade looks poorly. Gafford didn't change as a player in 3 months time. He got more opportunity and can successfully run pick and rolls with a point guard that can get him the ball where he can succeed.

A great passing point guard is a little like a great QB. They're going to elevate everyone around them. Getting a great power forward and watching Coby White attempt to throw him the ball in the post or watch a pick and roll go nowhere isn't a successful approach IMO. Coby and Zach don't have the vision or ballhandling ability to do this. The Bulls were one of the worst teams in turnovers in the league. They desperately need someone that can manage the offense, and get the ball to guys in spots where they can do damage.


Bingo.

Hierarchy of Bulls needs:

1. Point guard.










2. Power Forward, maybe.

Small forward not listed at all.


At SF/PF/C based on whom I think we will keep, we have 144 minutes:
32 - Vuc
32 - Pat
25 - Thad

That leaves 55 minutes for:
Troy Brown, Al-Forouq Aminu, a room exception player, and vet min players (if you spend your MLE upgrading PG)

At SG/PG, we have 96 minutes:
36 - LaVine
60 - White / Sato / Temple

Of these areas, one looks like a gigantic gaping hole, and one looks fine but not as good as we'd want.

That said, it does depend on your assumptions. We could resign Lauri / Theis, and now PG is absolutely our biggest need once we have two quality players to slit into the front court. We'd then have fully committed to mediocrity, but perhaps that is the long term plan. Put together a 45 win team and lose in the first round for three seasons.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#28 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:37 pm

Double post
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#29 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:37 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:They aren't sexy guys, but these guys would be relatively low cost options that would bolster the defense

Noel (led the entire league in DBPM)
Millsap
Craig
Oubre
Theis (hopefully they re-sign him)
Harrell
Holmes


Harrell is a horrible defender, one of the worst bigs in the league at that. The Lakers preferred to go with the corpse of Marc Gasol and whatever the hell Andre Drummond is.


I kind of liked his fit as a junk man next to Vucevic, but probably one of the lower guys on my list too.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#30 » by JohnnyTapwater » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:41 pm

I think Gaffords performance is enough reason to think PG play is paramount. We would've saw that same production if we had starting level of PG play. That hole is much bigger in a guard dominate league.

Guard play - ball handlers - facilitators are much more important to get right this offseason.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#31 » by sco » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:53 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I guess I don't agree with the premise of the thread. I think PG is pretty far and away the most important need.

You mention the Gafford trade looks poorly. Gafford didn't change as a player in 3 months time. He got more opportunity and can successfully run pick and rolls with a point guard that can get him the ball where he can succeed.

A great passing point guard is a little like a great QB. They're going to elevate everyone around them. Getting a great power forward and watching Coby White attempt to throw him the ball in the post or watch a pick and roll go nowhere isn't a successful approach IMO. Coby and Zach don't have the vision or ballhandling ability to do this. The Bulls were one of the worst teams in turnovers in the league. They desperately need someone that can manage the offense, and get the ball to guys in spots where they can do damage.


Bingo.

Hierarchy of Bulls needs:

1. Point guard.










2. Power Forward, maybe.

Small forward not listed at all.


At SF/PF/C based on whom I think we will keep, we have 144 minutes:
32 - Vuc
32 - Pat
25 - Thad

That leaves 55 minutes for:
Troy Brown, Al-Forouq Aminu, a room exception player, and vet min players (if you spend your MLE upgrading PG)

At SG/PG, we have 96 minutes:
36 - LaVine
60 - White / Sato / Temple

Of these areas, one looks like a gigantic gaping hole, and one looks fine but not as good as we'd want.

That said, it does depend on your assumptions. We could resign Lauri / Theis, and now PG is absolutely our biggest need once we have two quality players to slit into the front court. We'd then have fully committed to mediocrity, but perhaps that is the long term plan. Put together a 45 win team and lose in the first round for three seasons.

My dream is to resign Theis and S&T Lauri to either the Celts for Smart or NO for Ball, operate over the cap and use the MLE to sign Rose (assuming Knicks nab Lowry or Ball). Use our biennial exemption to sign another C like RoLo.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#32 » by dougthonus » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:58 pm

sco wrote:My dream is to resign Theis and S&T Lauri to either the Celts for Smart or NO for Ball, operate over the cap and use the MLE to sign Rose (assuming Knicks nab Lowry or Ball). Use our biennial exemption to sign another C like RoLo.


This is a great plan to maximize next year, and it might be similar to what we do.

My plan is add no salary to 2022, have 42M in cap room there and convince Bradley Beal or Kawhi Leonard to join us. Like all cap room plans, has pretty big downside if you don't get someone, but has upside of vaulting you into the top 8 teams in the league.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#33 » by sco » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:07 pm

dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:My dream is to resign Theis and S&T Lauri to either the Celts for Smart or NO for Ball, operate over the cap and use the MLE to sign Rose (assuming Knicks nab Lowry or Ball). Use our biennial exemption to sign another C like RoLo.


This is a great plan to maximize next year, and it might be similar to what we do.

My plan is add no salary to 2022, have 42M in cap room there and convince Bradley Beal or Kawhi Leonard to join us. Like all cap room plans, has pretty big downside if you don't get someone, but has upside of vaulting you into the top 8 teams in the league.

If we get Smart, his deal expires after next season.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#34 » by dougthonus » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:07 pm

sco wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:My dream is to resign Theis and S&T Lauri to either the Celts for Smart or NO for Ball, operate over the cap and use the MLE to sign Rose (assuming Knicks nab Lowry or Ball). Use our biennial exemption to sign another C like RoLo.


This is a great plan to maximize next year, and it might be similar to what we do.

My plan is add no salary to 2022, have 42M in cap room there and convince Bradley Beal or Kawhi Leonard to join us. Like all cap room plans, has pretty big downside if you don't get someone, but has upside of vaulting you into the top 8 teams in the league.

If we get Smart, his deal expires after next season.


If you keep Theis, his deal won't, neither would the Rose's (assuming he'll find a better deal than a 1 year MLE deal).
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#35 » by DuckIII » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:09 pm

dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:My dream is to resign Theis and S&T Lauri to either the Celts for Smart or NO for Ball, operate over the cap and use the MLE to sign Rose (assuming Knicks nab Lowry or Ball). Use our biennial exemption to sign another C like RoLo.


This is a great plan to maximize next year, and it might be similar to what we do.

My plan is add no salary to 2022, have 42M in cap room there and convince Bradley Beal or Kawhi Leonard to join us. Like all cap room plans, has pretty big downside if you don't get someone, but has upside of vaulting you into the top 8 teams in the league.


I’m totally on board with that plan IF Lavine blesses it and promises to re-sign if it doesn’t work.

We can’t have a free agency gamble cost us striking out and losing Lavine. This isn’t like trading Hinrich to get extra cap space to make a run at LeBron.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#36 » by sco » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:15 pm

DuckIII wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:My dream is to resign Theis and S&T Lauri to either the Celts for Smart or NO for Ball, operate over the cap and use the MLE to sign Rose (assuming Knicks nab Lowry or Ball). Use our biennial exemption to sign another C like RoLo.


This is a great plan to maximize next year, and it might be similar to what we do.

My plan is add no salary to 2022, have 42M in cap room there and convince Bradley Beal or Kawhi Leonard to join us. Like all cap room plans, has pretty big downside if you don't get someone, but has upside of vaulting you into the top 8 teams in the league.


I’m totally on board with that plan IF Lavine blesses it and promises to re-sign if it doesn’t work.

We can’t have a free agency gamble cost us striking out and losing Lavine. This isn’t like trading Hinrich to get extra cap space to make a run at LeBron.

Good point. Also, if Kawhi leaves, it's because he's ring chasing, not looking to be the guy carrying a team to a championship because that's what he has now. Beal seems like he's a loyal dude, and I think he's sticking with WAS.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#37 » by CobyWhite0 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:20 pm

Just a few things about the Coby - Zach backcourt:

When they were on the floor together:
Pre-trade, our OffRtg was 110.8, our DefRtg was 116.1 and our TO% was 15.8 (59.9 Ast%, 1.56 Ast/TO)
Post-trade, our OffRtg was 111.2, our DefRtg was 103.0 and our TO% was 11.8 (59.9 Ast%, 2.15 Ast/TO) (237 minutes)

The team was pretty good with a Coby/Zach backcourt after the trade, against a much tougher schedule than we had played before the trade.

Our Coby - Zach - Williams - Theis - Vucevic starting combo was pretty good as well. Though it's a small sample size of 48 minutes, our OffRtg was 110.9, our DefRtg was 107.8 and our TO% 12.9

Maybe we don't need Lonzo's defense as much as I thought? And maybe we don't need a "pure PG" as badly as most folks seem to think we do?
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#38 » by CobyWhite0 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:30 pm

A Lauri for Lonzo S&T simply does not work at all. You'd have to add more salary on each side of the trade.

A Lauri for Smart S&T works perfectly, as long as the C's are willing to pay Lauri a first-year salary of at least $18,458,570 but not more than $19,439,285. If Lauri's first year salary isn't in that exact range, again you have to add more players to the trade.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#39 » by Leslie Forman » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:31 pm

Forget about the positional needs, when I see this:

dougthonus wrote:PG/SG: Coby
PG/SG/SF: LaVine / Temple / Sato
SG / SF: Brown
SF / PF: Williams / Aminu
PF / C: Thad
C: Vuc

I'm seeing that there is literally not a single player on this team who is even average at both offense and defense. Everyone is either only above average at one side and below on the other, or is below average to mediocre at best on both. Temple/Sato/Young are literally the closest things to it on this list. That is awful roster makeup for a supposed win now franchise.

This has to be the least two-way roster in the entire league right now. Just getting one good two-way player should be the priority. I really have no idea how you do that with the subpar free agent class and lack of cap room and draft assets.
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Re: Bulls may have much bigger needs than PG 

Post#40 » by HomoSapien » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:31 pm

I doubt that we did that trade for Theis if we weren’t planning on trying to resign him. He played well and beat out Thad and Lauri to start.
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