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I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr

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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#41 » by Am2626 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:01 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Above all else we screwed up the tank that year. Picking 7th was the failure more so than picking WCJ at #7.

But yeah WCJ just never appeared all that talented. Drafting that guy can bite you when the guy with talent picked later ends up overcoming his health issues. But unfortunately, we've been plagued with risk averse management who'd rather plug holes than build a contender.


Not sure if they necessarily screwed the tank. They finished with the 4th worst record but the lottery odds had already changed at that point so outright tanking no longer was a option. Passing on Porter Jr. is inexcusable though. Bulls could have gotten their top 4 pick at 7 if they just drafted him.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#42 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:02 pm

Am2626 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Above all else we screwed up the tank that year. Picking 7th was the failure more so than picking WCJ at #7.

But yeah WCJ just never appeared all that talented. Drafting that guy can bite you when the guy with talent picked later ends up overcoming his health issues. But unfortunately, we've been plagued with risk averse management who'd rather plug holes than build a contender.


Not sure if they necessarily screwed the tank. They finished with the 4th worst record but the lottery odds had already changed at that point so outright tanking no longer was a option. Passing on Porter Jr. is inexcusable though. Bulls could have gotten their top 4 pick at 7 if they just drafted him.

You are wrong. They did not finish with the 4th worst record.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#43 » by Am2626 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:05 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Above all else we screwed up the tank that year. Picking 7th was the failure more so than picking WCJ at #7.

But yeah WCJ just never appeared all that talented. Drafting that guy can bite you when the guy with talent picked later ends up overcoming his health issues. But unfortunately, we've been plagued with risk averse management who'd rather plug holes than build a contender.


Not sure if they necessarily screwed the tank. They finished with the 4th worst record but the lottery odds had already changed at that point so outright tanking no longer was a option. Passing on Porter Jr. is inexcusable though. Bulls could have gotten their top 4 pick at 7 if they just drafted him.

You are wrong. They did not finish with the 4th worst record.


Yeah you are right. That was the Kilpatrick season. They messed up tanking and could have made up for it by drafting Porter Jr. which they didn’t do. Messed up a lot of things that year. I’m thinking of the following year when the draft odds changed.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#44 » by Am2626 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:15 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I wanted MPJ pretty badly during that draft. I actually loved the idea of him sitting out the entire year, and the Bulls would essentially do a 'double tank', get another high draft pick the year after, and you have a new core to build around (MPJ and the 2019 draft pick). Hated WCJ and compared his game to Taj, which got quite a bit of ridicule. As of now, he's a worse version of Taj. WCJ stans loved pointing out WCJ 'success' his rookie year and how MPJ wasn't even playing. Short sighted.

To even out this brag, I was wrong about Mikal Bridges, thought he didn't have the athleticism to stick in the NBA. He'll be just fine.


Speaking of draft day blunders the 2014 draft comes to mind. GarPax trades 16 and 19 to move up to 11 to take McDermott. The guys picked in those spots (Nurkic and Gary Harris) were way better than who the Bulls got. To make matters worst the Bulls could have drafted LaVine. Also Jokic went 41 in that draft. For a front office that was supposed to be great at drafting and finding hidden gems that was a pretty big fail.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#45 » by samwana » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:22 pm

TheJordanRule wrote:
Lexluthor wrote:I was never impressed by Wendell Carter when he was at Duke . It was just an awful Draft pick


Hindsight is 20/20 only because we get to see how these prospects developed.

In college, WC:
PER 28.2
TS % 62.8
3 PT % 41.3
BPG 2.2
RPG 9.1

...in very limited minutes (26.9 per game), in his freshman season, playing second fiddle to Bagley.

From there, Carter basically took a dive after his rookie season with us, focusing on developing his strength at the very sharp cost of his speed, which was already average to begin with and now, after that initial burst of excitement in Orlando, he's gone back to falling off the edge. Carter was a strong bet. At the time he was a much better bet than MPJ because, as Doug said, most prospects with injury issues usually bust or have short lived careers before they get hurt again. And, although MPJ traveled a long painful number of years to beat the bust label, there's no proof that he won't reinjure his back at some point in the future and be out of the NBA.
The most important thing you say is the bulking up was bad for him because he lost his speed because of it.

This is a problem that all Bulls have had during the garpax era. They always wanted every player to bulk up. It costed us Rose and maybe a championship with him. Jo too, Luol, Lauri definitely, WCJ, you name them.
Speed is way more important than bulk. Especially for guys that live from their speed.

I hope the new guys will put way more emphasis on speed and quickness instead of plodding bulk. Strength is nice, but not the bulky kind of strength.

You can see it with Lauri being too big, he got slow from all the weight and he isn't the guy to bang around, you need him lean and quick so he may have a chance to make a quick move. Instead he can't move his too heavy body around a slow center.

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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#46 » by Mbrahv0528 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:53 pm

Hold That wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:
Hold That wrote:Not drafting MPJ set us back a couple of years. I can forgive Shai and Bridges because they weren’t big time prospects coming out of high school and college. But MPJ has always projected to be elite dating back to H.S. I can understand the back concerns but with us picking outside the top 5 he was MORE than worth the risk. Wendell was never a prospect that anyone was wowed by. And definitely not a player I would’ve taken in order to pass on Colin Sexton let alone MPJ. Especially KNOWING MPJ would’ve sat, and the next year Zion was coming out which gave us more incentive to tank.
No it didn't.

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It definitely did. Another 4 years in no man’s land is our future, with only 2 first round picks in those next 4 years. Drafting WCJ made us desperate enough to trade off 2 first rounders for a 30 year old Vuc that doesn’t move the needle.
No, it didn't. This is a silly reactionary take at best.

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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#47 » by Brothaman33 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:56 pm

Mbrahv0528 wrote:
Hold That wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:No it didn't.

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It definitely did. Another 4 years in no man’s land is our future, with only 2 first round picks in those next 4 years. Drafting WCJ made us desperate enough to trade off 2 first rounders for a 30 year old Vuc that doesn’t move the needle.
No, it didn't. This is a silly reactionary take at best.
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Even if we had MPJ, he isn't so good that he is powering us through the East scoring 38 ppg and dishing out 11 assists.

He's a nice young forward who a bunch of people now suddenly mad about not drafting.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#48 » by Hold That » Wed Jun 9, 2021 7:25 pm

Mbrahv0528 wrote:
Hold That wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:No it didn't.

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It definitely did. Another 4 years in no man’s land is our future, with only 2 first round picks in those next 4 years. Drafting WCJ made us desperate enough to trade off 2 first rounders for a 30 year old Vuc that doesn’t move the needle.
No, it didn't. This is a silly reactionary take at best.

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That’s your opinion and I have mine. There were many people on this board who wanted him, so this isn’t some reactionary response of “oh since he’s doing good now, let’s overreact”.. many of us expected him to do good the moment he was cleared to play, and that’s exactly what has happened. What’s not an opinion is the fact that Wendell left a lot to be desired. So much so that we felt the need to package him and 2 first rounders for Vuc who really had no impact on us winning or losing. With us not being a free agency destination in the past decade and even more pressure to hit on 2 of the next 4 drafts since we are missing picks I’m going to say drafting Wendell and not picking Porter,Shai, either of the Bridges, and Sexton has definitely set us back a year or two. We are still at ground level in the rebuild, giving up those picks for a declining asset in Vuc will hurt.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#49 » by Dresden » Wed Jun 9, 2021 7:29 pm

Ice Man wrote:Porter was a Top 5 talent who was known to be a major injury risk. That bumped him back to being a mid-round pick. We weren't going to take him with a #7 pick, and I highly doubt that Denver would have either, if it had the #7 selection. Too much of a gamble for such a relatively high pick.

Same applies to Giannis (intriguing athlete but super raw) and Kawhi (intriguing athlete, excellent defender, but crappy college shooter), which is why they went mid-round too. Some great players just won't go at the #7 slot, either because they are too obviously good (ZIon, LeBron), or because they have too many question marks, as with those three players that I just mentioned.

I won't go at GarPax for that one.


I don't know why a player with the upside that MPJ possessed would be automatically back to a mid round pick because of injury concerns, but a player like Carter, who never really stood out in college as anything but a solid, steady player with decent, not great numbers, would be worthy of a #7 pick? I'd rather gamble on the guy with the tremendous upside. Instead we gambled on someone to become Al Horford, and he didn't even come close to living up to that.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#50 » by d boy gentleman » Wed Jun 9, 2021 8:49 pm

Muzbar wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I wanted a MPJ, Mitch Rob draft that year.

Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob.

That's how you rebuild.


Just dismiss the fact that MPJ's back issues is what caused him to fall and Robinson's attitude was also an issue and why he fell to the 2nd.

The Zion/Ja draft was year one of the anti-tanking and the Pelicans, Grizzlies and Lakers drafted 1, 2 and 4 with the 7th, 9th and 11th best odds whereas the the teams with the best odds drafted 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no such thing as "tanking right"
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#51 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:56 am

Perfect timing for this thread... if you've seen MPJ wearing a back brace during today's shootaround. Reports are that he will play, but they don't know how effective he can be.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#52 » by dice » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:24 am

Hangtime84 wrote:The only thing that makes me feel better about all of this is that the Clippers passed on him twice

At least we got a decent asset back in Vuc instead of what Philly got for trading away Mikal Bridges.

err...you realize that WCJ wasn't the major selling point for orlando in the vuc trade, right?
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#53 » by dice » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:27 am

d boy gentleman wrote:The Zion/Ja draft was year one of the anti-tanking and the Pelicans, Grizzlies and Lakers drafted 1, 2 and 4 with the 7th, 9th and 11th best odds whereas the the teams with the best odds drafted 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no such thing as "tanking right"

of course there is. it's just less likely to work out than it used to be. and it was never a guarantee of anything in the lotto era

and you picked a terrible year as an example. the pelicans ended up with zion because...wait for it...they played AD sparingly in an effort to both tank and preserve his trade value!
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#54 » by Hangtime84 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:58 am

dice wrote:
Hangtime84 wrote:The only thing that makes me feel better about all of this is that the Clippers passed on him twice

At least we got a decent asset back in Vuc instead of what Philly got for trading away Mikal Bridges.

err...you realize that WCJ wasn't the major selling point for orlando in the vuc trade, right?


Yeah they wanted our draft capital. I don't think that trade would have been possible without a young asset.
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If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#55 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:16 am

dice wrote:
d boy gentleman wrote:The Zion/Ja draft was year one of the anti-tanking and the Pelicans, Grizzlies and Lakers drafted 1, 2 and 4 with the 7th, 9th and 11th best odds whereas the the teams with the best odds drafted 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no such thing as "tanking right"

of course there is. it's just less likely to work out than it used to be. and it was never a guarantee of anything in the lotto era

and you picked a terrible year as an example. the pelicans ended up with zion because...wait for it...they played AD sparingly in an effort to both tank and preserve his trade value!


But they wound up with the 7th-worst record in the league - if they would have "tanked better" and wound up with the 6th best record, they would have drafted #9.

If they would have tanked even better, they could have had the 5th-worst record in the league, and picked 8th.

Or if they would have tanked even better than that, they could have had the 4th-worst record in the league and picked 7th (which is what happened to the Bulls).

Or they could have tanked PERFECTLY and wound up with the worst record in the league... and wound up picking 3rd, missing out on both Zion and Ja.

And they were in no way "preserving AD's trade value", because no matter what happened over the final 30ish games of the season, teams would have been lined up wanting to trade for him.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#56 » by dice » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
dice wrote:
d boy gentleman wrote:The Zion/Ja draft was year one of the anti-tanking and the Pelicans, Grizzlies and Lakers drafted 1, 2 and 4 with the 7th, 9th and 11th best odds whereas the the teams with the best odds drafted 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no such thing as "tanking right"

of course there is. it's just less likely to work out than it used to be. and it was never a guarantee of anything in the lotto era

and you picked a terrible year as an example. the pelicans ended up with zion because...wait for it...they played AD sparingly in an effort to both tank and preserve his trade value!


But they wound up with the 7th-worst record in the league - if they would have "tanked better" and wound up with the 6th best record, they would have drafted #9.

If they would have tanked even better, they could have had the 5th-worst record in the league, and picked 8th.

Or if they would have tanked even better than that, they could have had the 4th-worst record in the league and picked 7th (which is what happened to the Bulls).

Or they could have tanked PERFECTLY and wound up with the worst record in the league... and wound up picking 3rd, missing out on both Zion and Ja.

And they were in no way "preserving AD's trade value", because no matter what happened over the final 30ish games of the season, teams would have been lined up wanting to trade for him.

losing more games increases your chances of a good draft outcome. it's as simple as that. i wasn't specifically referring to that year's bulls draft possibilities

and if you think there's not a real chance that AD could suffer a career-crippling injury at any time, i don't know what to tell you
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#57 » by kulaz3000 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:Perfect timing for this thread... if you've seen MPJ wearing a back brace during today's shootaround. Reports are that he will play, but they don't know how effective he can be.


He is having a cracker of a game so far.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#58 » by Dominater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:33 am

Hangtime84 wrote:The only thing that makes me feel better about all of this is that the Clippers passed on him twice

At least we got a decent asset back in Vuc instead of what Philly got for trading away Mikal Bridges.

Too bad WCJ was the throw in, not the main piece of the Vuc trade.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#59 » by d boy gentleman » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:50 am

dice wrote:
d boy gentleman wrote:The Zion/Ja draft was year one of the anti-tanking and the Pelicans, Grizzlies and Lakers drafted 1, 2 and 4 with the 7th, 9th and 11th best odds whereas the the teams with the best odds drafted 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no such thing as "tanking right"

of course there is. it's just less likely to work out than it used to be. and it was never a guarantee of anything in the lotto era

and you picked a terrible year as an example. the pelicans ended up with zion because...wait for it...they played AD sparingly in an effort to both tank and preserve his trade value!


I didn't pick that year; I responded to the post I quoted said the following:

"Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob."

That post specifically pointed out the 2019 draft and the results of that draft showed that "tanked right" would have gotten you the 3rd, 5th, 6th or 7th pick and wouldn't have gotten you Zion or Ja because team with the 7th and 9th best odds jumped over 'tanked right" and drafted 1st and 2nd.

You also admitted that tanking is less likely to work out. Yet, you still advocate tanking despite flattened odds and the likelihood that it's not going to work out.
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Re: I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr 

Post#60 » by Muzbar » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:51 am

d boy gentleman wrote:
Muzbar wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I wanted a MPJ, Mitch Rob draft that year.

Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob.

That's how you rebuild.


Just dismiss the fact that MPJ's back issues is what caused him to fall and Robinson's attitude was also an issue and why he fell to the 2nd.


Where in any of that did I dismiss anything? I'm well aware of MPJs back issues at the time, draft him, sit him the year hence improving the tanking process.

Where are MRobs attitude problems now? Haven't heard any issues since he's been drafted.

This was just my personal preference at the time and of as I mentioned all in hindsight obviously.

And yes you can still tank correctly, as dice mentioned losing more games increases your odd of a better pick, they've just evened it out more now.

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