I went to Barclay Center to watch the Bulls draft Michael Porter Jr and we came away with Wendell freaking Carter Jr

[CobyWhite0]

I didn't pick that year; I responded to the post I quoted said the following:

"Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob."

That post specifically pointed out the 2019 draft and the results of that draft showed that "tanked right" would have gotten you the 3rd, 5th, 6th or 7th pick and wouldn't have gotten you Zion or Ja because team with the 7th and 9th best odds jumped over 'tanked right" and drafted 1st and 2nd.

the pelicans tanked right and got zion for their efforts

You also admitted that tanking is less likely to work out. Yet, you still advocate tanking despite flattened odds and the likelihood that it's not going to work out.

i didn't advocate tanking. i said there's a right way to do it if you DO decide to go that route. i will say that there's still an argument for tanking. the incentive structure has just shifted. it's now less important to go all-out starting in the preseason in an effort to be a bottom feeder (a la "the process"). but there's also now MORE incentive to tank at season's end for teams whose playoff hopes are fading away

There were six teams that year including the Bulls that finished with worst records than the Pelicans so I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion that the Pelicans tanked right? If anything the Bulls tanked harder and still got a worst draft pick. Outright tanking doesn’t work with the new lottery odds.

Yup. Using dice's logic, if we wind up with the #1 pick this summer, it will mean that we "tanked right" - even though we didn't tank even one single game.

[dice]

I didn't pick that year; I responded to the post I quoted said the following:

"Again hindsight, but imagine we tanked right the following year, get the 2nd pick and run with Ja, MPJ and Mitch Rob."

That post specifically pointed out the 2019 draft and the results of that draft showed that "tanked right" would have gotten you the 3rd, 5th, 6th or 7th pick and wouldn't have gotten you Zion or Ja because team with the 7th and 9th best odds jumped over 'tanked right" and drafted 1st and 2nd.

the pelicans tanked right and got zion for their efforts

You also admitted that tanking is less likely to work out. Yet, you still advocate tanking despite flattened odds and the likelihood that it's not going to work out.

i didn't advocate tanking. i said there's a right way to do it if you DO decide to go that route. i will say that there's still an argument for tanking. the incentive structure has just shifted. it's now less important to go all-out starting in the preseason in an effort to be a bottom feeder (a la "the process"). but there's also now MORE incentive to tank at season's end for teams whose playoff hopes are fading away

There were six teams that year including the Bulls that finished with worst records than the Pelicans so I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion that the Pelicans tanked right? If anything the Bulls tanked harder and still got a worst draft pick.

because you can "tank right" and end up with a better record because you have more talent? or because your crap talent overachieved? or because you were trying at the beginning of the season until circumstances changed? this is not complicated

Outright tanking doesn’t work with the new lottery odds.

the odds aren't still better at the bottom?

[dice]

the pelicans tanked right and got zion for their efforts


i didn't advocate tanking. i said there's a right way to do it if you DO decide to go that route. i will say that there's still an argument for tanking. the incentive structure has just shifted. it's now less important to go all-out starting in the preseason in an effort to be a bottom feeder (a la "the process"). but there's also now MORE incentive to tank at season's end for teams whose playoff hopes are fading away

There were six teams that year including the Bulls that finished with worst records than the Pelicans so I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion that the Pelicans tanked right? If anything the Bulls tanked harder and still got a worst draft pick. Outright tanking doesn’t work with the new lottery odds.

Yup. Using dice's logic, if we wind up with the #1 pick this summer, it will mean that we "tanked right" - even though we didn't tank even one single game.

that's actually not remotely what i said. try harder

and do you honestly think that zach lavine would have missed so many games if the bulls were still realistically in the playoff hunt? get serious

but yes, if the bulls end up with the #1 (or 2, or 3, or 4) pick, it will be because they exercised an abundance of caution w/ zach lavine in a season where they had nothing left to play for. they might have been wise to sit other guys (or play them less minutes) too at the end of the season. chemistry building for next season vs. marginal improvement of lotto odds

[Am2626]

There were six teams that year including the Bulls that finished with worst records than the Pelicans so I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion that the Pelicans tanked right? If anything the Bulls tanked harder and still got a worst draft pick. Outright tanking doesn’t work with the new lottery odds.

Yup. Using dice's logic, if we wind up with the #1 pick this summer, it will mean that we "tanked right" - even though we didn't tank even one single game.

that's actually not remotely what i said. try harder

and do you honestly think that zach lavine would have missed so many games if the bulls were still realistically in the playoff hunt? get serious

but yes, if the bulls end up with the #1 (or 2, or 3, or 4) pick, it will be because they exercised an abundance of caution w/ zach lavine in a season where they had nothing left to play for. they might have been wise to sit other guys (or play them less minutes) too at the end of the season. chemistry building for next season vs. marginal improvement of lotto odds

If you talk about not Tanking properly look at the last game of the year against the Bucks. They lowered their top 4 odds and increased the odds of both the Pelicans and Kings. Talk about pure stupidity. They beat a G League Team that day. If they get a top 4 pick it will be inspite if that blunder. I’m calling it now. One of the Bulls, Pelicans, or Kings are getting a top 4 pick. I have a bad feeling that it won’t be the Bulls.

[dice]

Yup. Using dice's logic, if we wind up with the #1 pick this summer, it will mean that we "tanked right" - even though we didn't tank even one single game.

that's actually not remotely what i said. try harder

and do you honestly think that zach lavine would have missed so many games if the bulls were still realistically in the playoff hunt? get serious

but yes, if the bulls end up with the #1 (or 2, or 3, or 4) pick, it will be because they exercised an abundance of caution w/ zach lavine in a season where they had nothing left to play for. they might have been wise to sit other guys (or play them less minutes) too at the end of the season. chemistry building for next season vs. marginal improvement of lotto odds

If you talk about not Tanking properly look at the last game of the year against the Bucks. They lowered their top 4 odds and increased the odds of both the Pelicans and Kings. Talk about pure stupidity.

very true

[johnnyvann840]

MPJ with a couple of garbage buckets here at the end of this game 3 after the game was already over. It will make him look a little better in the box score but the truth is that he has been awful in this series. The Suns have attacked him relentlessly the whole series because he has been totally lost on the defensive end and he didn't show up on offense either. He needed to step up for the Nuggets and he just did not. It was a lot of pressure for the kid and he's young. He had a terrific season and has far exceeded what I thought he could do in the league. Also, he's been having back issues, so he hasn't been 100%. But, of course, that's the main reason he slipped so far in his draft- that risk that his back could start acting up any time and, unfortunately, it did at the worst possible time for his team.

[CobyWhite0]

MPJ with a couple of garbage buckets here at the end of this game 3 after the game was already over. It will make him look a little better in the box score but the truth is that he has been awful in this series. The Suns have attacked him relentlessly the whole series because he has been totally lost on the defensive end and he didn't show up on offense either. He needed to step up for the Nuggets and he just did not. It was a lot of pressure for the kid and he's young. He had a terrific season and has far exceeded what I thought he could do in the league. Also, he's been having back issues, so he hasn't been 100%. But, of course, that's the main reason he slipped so far in his draft- that risk that his back could start acting up any time and, unfortunately, it did at the worst possible time for his team.

If anyone believes in the power of the jinx, this thread certainly was it for MPJ. You have to give him credit for getting out there and playing through the pain, but I have to wonder if the Nugs wouldn't have been better off just sitting him for the last 2 games? He's a poor defender when healthy, at least someone else might have given DEN some help on the offensive end.

[johnnyvann840]

MPJ with a couple of garbage buckets here at the end of this game 3 after the game was already over. It will make him look a little better in the box score but the truth is that he has been awful in this series. The Suns have attacked him relentlessly the whole series because he has been totally lost on the defensive end and he didn't show up on offense either. He needed to step up for the Nuggets and he just did not. It was a lot of pressure for the kid and he's young. He had a terrific season and has far exceeded what I thought he could do in the league. Also, he's been having back issues, so he hasn't been 100%. But, of course, that's the main reason he slipped so far in his draft- that risk that his back could start acting up any time and, unfortunately, it did at the worst possible time for his team.

If anyone believes in the power of the jinx, this thread certainly was it for MPJ. You have to give him credit for getting out there and playing through the pain, but I have to wonder if the Nugs wouldn't have been better off just sitting him for the last 2 games? He's a poor defender when healthy, at least someone else might have given DEN some help on the offensive end.

The Nuggets didn't really have a choice. When Jamal Murray went down, they rode MPJ hard and he delivered. He was the one guy that if he heated up and started knocking down shots, could have been the key to the series for them. When he tweaked his back in game 1, I think both he and the Nuggets hoped he could play through it and at least be a force on the offensive end. What happened was he never really found his shot and he got exploited pretty bad by the Phoenix PnR. Monty made it a point to attack MPJ nearly every time down the floor and it worked. They have had him on roller skates for the entire series so far.

[TheGOATRises007]

MPJ has zero feel for the game and his defense is horrific.

He has a long way to go.

[CobyWhite0]

MPJ has zero feel for the game and his defense is horrific.

He has a long way to go.

True, true and true. And if he actually were a Bull, the people complaining that we didn't draft him would be all over his weaknesses.

But they're not, because the grass is always greener...

[Andi Obst]

MPJ has zero feel for the game and his defense is horrific.

He has a long way to go.

True. His defense has been better this season IMO, but right now he doesn't move well enough to compete on that end against an offense like Phoenix. On offense he's a good cutter and an incredible tough shot maker, but he'll have to become better with the ball in his hands and as a decision maker overall to make an impact when his shot isn't falling. As long as his body holds up, though, he should be fine. Only 22 years old.

[MrSparkle]

Despite sneaking to G7 of the WCFs, the bubble Nuggets did almost lose in the 1st round against Utah. I thought it was apparent they had some serious defensive holes- they won games with virtuosic scoring from Murray... and Jerami Grant (and Gary Harris’ return) gave them a formidable perimeter/switch defense.

I was surprised they let key defenders go while adding Campazzo, an undersized liability. Jokic is incredible offensively but he needs a strong defense at 1-4 (as does Vucevic). Otherwise it’s way too easy PnRing Porter and Jokic to death as they drop and can’t contest.

[Ice Man]

True, true and true. And if he actually were a Bull, the people complaining that we didn't draft him would be all over his weaknesses.

True that. The board would be carping that we could have had SGA instead.

[Am2626]

True, true and true. And if he actually were a Bull, the people complaining that we didn't draft him would be all over his weaknesses.

True that. The board would be carping that we could have had SGA instead.

SGA was a pretty big unknown when he was drafted. Very few people knew how good he was going to be. Everyone knew MPJ had talent when he was drafted. At 7 you don’t pass on MPJ because of injury risk. He was too good of a talent and you don’t usually get that type of talent that far down in the draft. This was an opportunity for GarPax to make up for their tanking blunders but they go ahead and compound the problem by drafting a very low ceiling undersized big instead.

Regarding MPJ’s current injury not at all concerned. He’s probably done for the year but he will be back healthy next year. Denver will be a good team next year with Jamal Murray coming back as well.

[Jcool0]

True, true and true. And if he actually were a Bull, the people complaining that we didn't draft him would be all over his weaknesses.

True that. The board would be carping that we could have had SGA instead.

SGA was a pretty big unknown when he was drafted. Very few people knew how good he was going to be. Everyone knew MPJ had talent when he was drafted. At 7 you don’t pass on MPJ because of injury risk. He was too good of a talent and you don’t usually get that type of talent that far down in the draft. This was an opportunity for GarPax to make up for their tanking blunders but they go ahead and compound the problem by drafting a very low ceiling undersized big instead.

Regarding MPJ’s current injury not at all concerned. He’s probably done for the year but he will be back healthy next year. Denver will be a good team next year with Jamal Murray coming back as well.

Torn ACL? No. Chronic back issues that derailed his freshman year? Yes.

[CobyWhite0]

True, true and true. And if he actually were a Bull, the people complaining that we didn't draft him would be all over his weaknesses.

True that. The board would be carping that we could have had SGA instead.

SGA was a pretty big unknown when he was drafted. Very few people knew how good he was going to be. Everyone knew MPJ had talent when he was drafted. At 7 you don’t pass on MPJ because of injury risk. He was too good of a talent and you don’t usually get that type of talent that far down in the draft. This was an opportunity for GarPax to make up for their tanking blunders but they go ahead and compound the problem by drafting a very low ceiling undersized big instead.

Regarding MPJ’s current injury not at all concerned. He’s probably done for the year but he will be back healthy next year. Denver will be a good team next year with Jamal Murray coming back as well.

So I guess you don't pass on MPJ at 8 either? Or 9? 10? 11? No freaking way you pass on him at 12, right? Pass on him at 13? Insanity, GM should have been fired immediately after passing on him.

If people want to bitch about GarPax passing on someone at 7, it should be Mikal Bridges or SGA. Even with a healthy back, MPJ is one of the absolute worst defenders in the entire NBA. He makes guys like Lauri and Coby look like DPOY candidates.

[johnnyvann840]

This breakdown is not kind to MPJ and it only talks about the first two games. Things were nearly as bad in last night's game.

https://thefourpointplay.substack.com/p/vol2-iss15-the-game-2-break-down

The Phoenix Suns came into Game 2 against the Denver Nuggets with a clear plan. Attack Michael Porter Jnr at every opportunity.

In fact, they weren't just satisfied with capitalising on opportunities when they presented themselves. They hunted them.

On a night where Porter Jnr went 3 for 13 from the field for just 11 points, it was on the defensive end where he struggled the most. And yeah, I know that's really saying something. But trust me.

Actually, don’t just trust me. Let me show you!

Below is the timeline of events for a possible missing person case. The 28 minutes the Denver wing was last seen as a starter in the Playoffs. Minutes he and the Nuggets would understandably like back. But after this humiliation, it isn’t guaranteed we see MPJ in the same role again this season.

The Early Warning Signs
If I am being honest, the signs were there in Game 1. For example, I highlighted where the Suns were preying on MPJ on the last line of defense. Game 2 though, the Suns took it to another level.

The videos and the rest of the article are just brutal.

[CobyWhite0]

This breakdown is not kind to MPJ and it only talks about the first two games. Things were nearly as bad in last night's game.

https://thefourpointplay.substack.com/p/vol2-iss15-the-game-2-break-down

The Phoenix Suns came into Game 2 against the Denver Nuggets with a clear plan. Attack Michael Porter Jnr at every opportunity.

In fact, they weren't just satisfied with capitalising on opportunities when they presented themselves. They hunted them.

On a night where Porter Jnr went 3 for 13 from the field for just 11 points, it was on the defensive end where he struggled the most. And yeah, I know that's really saying something. But trust me.

Actually, don’t just trust me. Let me show you!

Below is the timeline of events for a possible missing person case. The 28 minutes the Denver wing was last seen as a starter in the Playoffs. Minutes he and the Nuggets would understandably like back. But after this humiliation, it isn’t guaranteed we see MPJ in the same role again this season.

The Early Warning Signs
If I am being honest, the signs were there in Game 1. For example, I highlighted where the Suns were preying on MPJ on the last line of defense. Game 2 though, the Suns took it to another level.

The videos and the rest of the article are just brutal.

Why did you post this? Let the "MPJ to Chicago" threads commence

[Dominator83]

MPJ has zero feel for the game and his defense is horrific.

He has a long way to go.

True, true and true. And if he actually were a Bull, the people complaining that we didn't draft him would be all over his weaknesses.

But they're not, because the grass is always greener...

Yea I like MPJ, but he is definitely a tad overrated. For one, he was passed due to serious back issues. And his back is apparently hurting now. He may not ever be 100% for the long haul of a season + playoffs. And even when his back doesn't hurt, he is an absolute traffic come on defense. Like the Carlos Boozer of SFs bad. You can't win in this league without 2 way stars.

But even all that said, still would have been a far better pick than WCJ. Even if we didn't like MPJ on the court, his trade value is FAR greater than WCJ. Like I bet MPJ would fetch Vucecic on a trade straight up. While WCJ was merely an add-on appetizer to the entree of 2 1st rounders. Huge difference in value that set this franchise way back.

[Am2626]

True that. The board would be carping that we could have had SGA instead.

SGA was a pretty big unknown when he was drafted. Very few people knew how good he was going to be. Everyone knew MPJ had talent when he was drafted. At 7 you don’t pass on MPJ because of injury risk. He was too good of a talent and you don’t usually get that type of talent that far down in the draft. This was an opportunity for GarPax to make up for their tanking blunders but they go ahead and compound the problem by drafting a very low ceiling undersized big instead.

Regarding MPJ’s current injury not at all concerned. He’s probably done for the year but he will be back healthy next year. Denver will be a good team next year with Jamal Murray coming back as well.

Torn ACL? No. Chronic back issues that derailed his freshman year? Yes.

MPJ came back from those back issues and played at a level this year that WCJ will never reach. I’d say that should be enough to justify taking him at 7 over WCJ.