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NBA Trade Thread # 4

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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#21 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:17 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:I would trade for Porzingis, but only under very specific circumstances:

AKME aren't planning to clear max cap space in 2022.
KP agrees to waive his player option for 2023-24 as part of the trade, so that he expires in July 2023 (the same time as Vuc)
KP waives his trade kicker
Dallas trades KP for Sato, Aminu, and a S&T'd Felicio to make the salaries work
Dallas adds Brunson to the deal

KP is no longer the unicorn, but he still put up 20/9 in 31 min this season. Shot 38% on 3's with 6 att/game. His 1.3 blocks would have led our team, and his 3.2 FTA/game would have been 2nd to Zach.

He was 13th in the league in BLK%, 6th in the league in TO%. 19th in DefReb%. If he would have played 6 more games, he would have been 16th in rebounds per game. He just posted career highs with a 21.3 PER, .582 TS%, 15.8 TotalReb%, 6.4 TO%, .154 WS/48 and 2.9 OBPM.

He's overpaid for the next 2 seasons, but that's irrelevant if AKME don't plan on playing the cap space game in 2022.

I don't expect anyone to agree, but I could live with this rotation for the next 2 years:

Vuc - Theis
KP - Thad
Williams - TBJ
Zach - Temple
Coby - Micic

We would also have the BAE this summer, plus the Full MLE minus whatever amount it takes to sign Micic

Plus Green, Simonovic, 2021 2nd rounder, 2022 1st rounder


Porzingis/Vuc would definitely be the worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA. Watching Porzingis try to guard modern PFs would be a **** show. He rarely leaves the paint on defense. Vuc might be more mobile at this point.


He's played almost exclusively at Center with Dallas - 99% of the time last season, 100% of the time this season (per B-R.com) - which of course is going to leave you spending most of your time near the paint on defense. You should check out the playoff games where he was at PF with Boban at C, KP was all over the perimeter.

Being 7'3" with a 7'6" wingspan can do a lot to make up for a lack of quickness, especially when guarding opposing PFs. And Vuc most definitely isn't more mobile at this point.

Of course, I also keep reading what horrible defenders Coby and Zach and Vuc are - but we finished 12th in Defensive Rating this season, 11th after the trade. I guess people just cannot figure out that NBA defense is a TEAM thing. Obviously.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#22 » by TheStig » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:26 am

gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote: Just throwing out an unconventional trade proposal based on the idea of keeping Markkanen on the Bulls long-term. What if the Bulls moved Vucevic & Sato for Porzingis, Brunson, & Green?

Brunson is a Chicago guy who could run point guard, Green gives the Bulls some needed depth at wing, & Porzingis brings some more rim protection and matches up with the Bull’s timeline (age) better than Vucevic (31).

Going the younger route lines up better with guys like LeBron, Durant, Harden, & Curry getting older.

Jalen Brunson / Coby White
Zach LaVine / Troy Brown Jr.
Patrick Williams / Josh Green / Al-Farouq Aminu
Lauri Markkanen / Thaddeus Young
Kristaps Porzingis / Daniel Theis


So we’re essentially turning 2 lightly protected first rounders, WCJ and Sato into a huge negative asset, a backup point guard (who needs an extension btw) and a nobody while also taking on Aminu‘s salary in the process?

…cool cool cool…


Cmon man. If you’re going to criticize the trade, take your overt bias out of the discussion and take a second to comprehend the reasoning that was laid out behind the hypothetical trade. You completely ignored the Bulls contention window (his age) and his fit next to Markkanen (who could walk away for nothing).

If Porzingis was a free agent this offseason, he would still get a similar contract that he previously signed. He isn’t a negative asset. He nearly averaged 20 & 10 at 25 years old.

If you’re gonna dismiss it, at least give some legitimate reasons or a statistical analysis backing your claim that he’s a negative asset. I’m not seeing it.

KP is not a negative but he's not a positive. Or at least not much of a positive. His defense has dropped off since the knee injuries. He's given up on the post. And he avereaged 13 and 5 in the playoffs while playing against much smaller guys.

I just don't see the impact he'll make. I'd rather just have Theis back for a small fraction of the price. At this point, what does KP do that Theis doesn't?
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#23 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:37 am

CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:I would trade for Porzingis, but only under very specific circumstances:

AKME aren't planning to clear max cap space in 2022.
KP agrees to waive his player option for 2023-24 as part of the trade, so that he expires in July 2023 (the same time as Vuc)
KP waives his trade kicker
Dallas trades KP for Sato, Aminu, and a S&T'd Felicio to make the salaries work
Dallas adds Brunson to the deal

KP is no longer the unicorn, but he still put up 20/9 in 31 min this season. Shot 38% on 3's with 6 att/game. His 1.3 blocks would have led our team, and his 3.2 FTA/game would have been 2nd to Zach.

He was 13th in the league in BLK%, 6th in the league in TO%. 19th in DefReb%. If he would have played 6 more games, he would have been 16th in rebounds per game. He just posted career highs with a 21.3 PER, .582 TS%, 15.8 TotalReb%, 6.4 TO%, .154 WS/48 and 2.9 OBPM.

He's overpaid for the next 2 seasons, but that's irrelevant if AKME don't plan on playing the cap space game in 2022.

I don't expect anyone to agree, but I could live with this rotation for the next 2 years:

Vuc - Theis
KP - Thad
Williams - TBJ
Zach - Temple
Coby - Micic

We would also have the BAE this summer, plus the Full MLE minus whatever amount it takes to sign Micic

Plus Green, Simonovic, 2021 2nd rounder, 2022 1st rounder


Porzingis/Vuc would definitely be the worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA. Watching Porzingis try to guard modern PFs would be a **** show. He rarely leaves the paint on defense. Vuc might be more mobile at this point.


He's played almost exclusively at Center with Dallas - 99% of the time last season, 100% of the time this season (per B-R.com) - which of course is going to leave you spending most of your time near the paint on defense. You should check out the playoff games where he was at PF with Boban at C, KP was all over the perimeter.

Being 7'3" with a 7'6" wingspan can do a lot to make up for a lack of quickness, especially when guarding opposing PFs. And Vuc most definitely isn't more mobile at this point.

Of course, I also keep reading what horrible defenders Coby and Zach and Vuc are - but we finished 12th in Defensive Rating this season, 11th after the trade. I guess people just cannot figure out that NBA defense is a TEAM thing. Obviously.


And let me throw out another simple fact - when our 3 "horrible" defenders (Zach and Coby and Vuc) were on the floor together, the team's Defensive Rating was 105.0 - the Lakers led the league in Defensive Rating at 106.8 :dontknow:
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#24 » by Little Nathan » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:22 am

gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
gobullschi wrote: Just throwing out an unconventional trade proposal based on the idea of keeping Markkanen on the Bulls long-term. What if the Bulls moved Vucevic & Sato for Porzingis, Brunson, & Green?

Brunson is a Chicago guy who could run point guard, Green gives the Bulls some needed depth at wing, & Porzingis brings some more rim protection and matches up with the Bull’s timeline (age) better than Vucevic (31).

Going the younger route lines up better with guys like LeBron, Durant, Harden, & Curry getting older.

Jalen Brunson / Coby White
Zach LaVine / Troy Brown Jr.
Patrick Williams / Josh Green / Al-Farouq Aminu
Lauri Markkanen / Thaddeus Young
Kristaps Porzingis / Daniel Theis


So we’re essentially turning 2 lightly protected first rounders, WCJ and Sato into a huge negative asset, a backup point guard (who needs an extension btw) and a nobody while also taking on Aminu‘s salary in the process?

…cool cool cool…


Cmon man. If you’re going to criticize the trade, take your overt bias out of the discussion and take a second to comprehend the reasoning that was laid out behind the hypothetical trade. You completely ignored the Bulls contention window (his age) and his fit next to Markkanen (who could walk away for nothing).

If Porzingis was a free agent this offseason, he would still get a similar contract that he previously signed. He isn’t a negative asset. He nearly averaged 20 & 10 at 25 years old.

If you’re gonna dismiss it, at least give some legitimate reasons or a statistical analysis backing your claim that he’s a negative asset. I’m not seeing it.


1. The fit with Lauri is extremely bad. You seem to think Porzingis is a positive on defense? Well, he’s not. Like, not even close. Can’t defend in space, stiff as hell (probably due to the injuries) and absolutely zero strength. On offense, they kind of like to do the same things, neither guy can pass or post up, both are essentially going to wait for spot-up opportunities. Zero versatility. Letting Lauri walk also doesn’t bother me one bit.

2. I highly doubt he would get a similar contract and if he did, it would just be a desperate stupid team doing it based on his undeserved reputation as a guy who could somehow turn into a star.

3. I kind of mentioned it already, but the dude is as unreliable as they come with his health. Just never really available. Even when he’s playing, he’s always playing through something. Both knees are toast.

You can call me biased for whatever reason, but I don’t see this guy as a positive asset at between 31 and 36 mil in the next 3 years.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#25 » by PrimzyBulls81 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:11 am

I prefer Theis even at 16M than KP at 32M..

KP and Vucevic both here? Nighmare on D..
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#26 » by MalagaBulls » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:21 am

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:I prefer Theis even at 16M than KP at 32M..

KP and Vucevic both here? Nighmare on D..


:o :o

No way Theis gets that AAV, unless you mean 2/16M which equates to 8M per year. I can live with that.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#27 » by sco » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:54 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:
PrimzyBulls81 wrote:I prefer Theis even at 16M than KP at 32M..

KP and Vucevic both here? Nighmare on D..


:o :o

No way Theis gets that AAV, unless you mean 2/16M which equates to 8M per year. I can live with that.

IDK, he may not get $16M, but I put him in the 4th quartile range of starting PF's (sorta where I had Lauri to start the year), and that has a market value of about $11M-$14M per year. We may be able to get down to a starting number of $9-10M if we go out 3 or 4 years.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#28 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:58 pm

TheStig wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
So we’re essentially turning 2 lightly protected first rounders, WCJ and Sato into a huge negative asset, a backup point guard (who needs an extension btw) and a nobody while also taking on Aminu‘s salary in the process?

…cool cool cool…


Cmon man. If you’re going to criticize the trade, take your overt bias out of the discussion and take a second to comprehend the reasoning that was laid out behind the hypothetical trade. You completely ignored the Bulls contention window (his age) and his fit next to Markkanen (who could walk away for nothing).

If Porzingis was a free agent this offseason, he would still get a similar contract that he previously signed. He isn’t a negative asset. He nearly averaged 20 & 10 at 25 years old.

If you’re gonna dismiss it, at least give some legitimate reasons or a statistical analysis backing your claim that he’s a negative asset. I’m not seeing it.

KP is not a negative but he's not a positive. Or at least not much of a positive. His defense has dropped off since the knee injuries. He's given up on the post. And he avereaged 13 and 5 in the playoffs while playing against much smaller guys.

I just don't see the impact he'll make. I'd rather just have Theis back for a small fraction of the price. At this point, what does KP do that Theis doesn't?


He is better at crying that better players a controlling the ball. If he is unhappy deferring to Luka I can only imagine what he would react to be being 3rd banana behind Zach and Vuc. Thankfully we won’t have to find out. Already declining player plus cancerous attitude on a terrible contract. No thanks.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#29 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:11 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
1. The fit with Lauri is extremely bad. You seem to think Porzingis is a positive on defense? Well, he’s not. Like, not even close. Can’t defend in space, stiff as hell (probably due to the injuries) and absolutely zero strength. On offense, they kind of like to do the same things, neither guy can pass or post up, both are essentially going to wait for spot-up opportunities. Zero versatility. Letting Lauri walk also doesn’t bother me one bit.

2. I highly doubt he would get a similar contract and if he did, it would just be a desperate stupid team doing it based on his undeserved reputation as a guy who could somehow turn into a star.

3. I kind of mentioned it already, but the dude is as unreliable as they come with his health. Just never really available. Even when he’s playing, he’s always playing through something. Both knees are toast.

You can call me biased for whatever reason, but I don’t see this guy as a positive asset at between 31 and 36 mil in the next 3 years.


I just wanted to point out that KP actually does post up quite a bit. He was 15th in post possessions last season, and only these guys posted up more:

Embiid
Jokic
Randle
Sabonis
KAT
Vuc
Valanciunas
Ayton
Zion
Melo
Giannis
Harrell
AD
Tobias Harris

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up/?sort=POSS&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#30 » by jump » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:24 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
Porzingis/Vuc would definitely be the worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA. Watching Porzingis try to guard modern PFs would be a **** show. He rarely leaves the paint on defense. Vuc might be more mobile at this point.


He's played almost exclusively at Center with Dallas - 99% of the time last season, 100% of the time this season (per B-R.com) - which of course is going to leave you spending most of your time near the paint on defense. You should check out the playoff games where he was at PF with Boban at C, KP was all over the perimeter.

Being 7'3" with a 7'6" wingspan can do a lot to make up for a lack of quickness, especially when guarding opposing PFs. And Vuc most definitely isn't more mobile at this point.

Of course, I also keep reading what horrible defenders Coby and Zach and Vuc are - but we finished 12th in Defensive Rating this season, 11th after the trade. I guess people just cannot figure out that NBA defense is a TEAM thing. Obviously.


And let me throw out another simple fact - when our 3 "horrible" defenders (Zach and Coby and Vuc) were on the floor together, the team's Defensive Rating was 105.0 - the Lakers led the league in Defensive Rating at 106.8 :dontknow:
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#31 » by jump » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:29 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
Porzingis/Vuc would definitely be the worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA. Watching Porzingis try to guard modern PFs would be a **** show. He rarely leaves the paint on defense. Vuc might be more mobile at this point.


He's played almost exclusively at Center with Dallas - 99% of the time last season, 100% of the time this season (per B-R.com) - which of course is going to leave you spending most of your time near the paint on defense. You should check out the playoff games where he was at PF with Boban at C, KP was all over the perimeter.

Being 7'3" with a 7'6" wingspan can do a lot to make up for a lack of quickness, especially when guarding opposing PFs. And Vuc most definitely isn't more mobile at this point.

Of course, I also keep reading what horrible defenders Coby and Zach and Vuc are - but we finished 12th in Defensive Rating this season, 11th after the trade. I guess people just cannot figure out that NBA defense is a TEAM thing. Obviously.


And let me throw out another simple fact - when our 3 "horrible" defenders (Zach and Coby and Vuc) were on the floor together, the team's Defensive Rating was 105.0 - the Lakers led the league in Defensive Rating at 106.8 :dontknow:


That last stat makes me want to get Lonzo all the more. Put him in as a point forward and run with Coby, Zach, Lonzo, Williams and Vuc. We could put some serious points on the board and have defense.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#32 » by TheStig » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:54 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
TheStig wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Cmon man. If you’re going to criticize the trade, take your overt bias out of the discussion and take a second to comprehend the reasoning that was laid out behind the hypothetical trade. You completely ignored the Bulls contention window (his age) and his fit next to Markkanen (who could walk away for nothing).

If Porzingis was a free agent this offseason, he would still get a similar contract that he previously signed. He isn’t a negative asset. He nearly averaged 20 & 10 at 25 years old.

If you’re gonna dismiss it, at least give some legitimate reasons or a statistical analysis backing your claim that he’s a negative asset. I’m not seeing it.

KP is not a negative but he's not a positive. Or at least not much of a positive. His defense has dropped off since the knee injuries. He's given up on the post. And he avereaged 13 and 5 in the playoffs while playing against much smaller guys.

I just don't see the impact he'll make. I'd rather just have Theis back for a small fraction of the price. At this point, what does KP do that Theis doesn't?


He is better at crying that better players a controlling the ball. If he is unhappy deferring to Luka I can only imagine what he would react to be being 3rd banana behind Zach and Vuc. Thankfully we won’t have to find out. Already declining player plus cancerous attitude on a terrible contract. No thanks.

Luka is extremely ball dominant and they did bring him in to be his 1b. Not equivlent to a 3rdish option. I think he'll do better in an environment that uses him more actively. I also think he's not a 4 anymore either. Vuc and KP are pretty duplicating even though they play a bit different. The injuries have also clearly taken a toll. I don't think he'll be the same. The big advantage of KP was the defense and moving his feet. He just can't really do that at a high level anymore.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#33 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:32 pm

I think KP was complaining about the playoffs - his usage rate was 25.9% in the regular season (2nd on the team), but only 15.7% in the playoffs. That was 5th on the team among guys who played the entire series, 7th if you include Boban (4 games) and Trey Burke (2 games, less than 17 minutes total).
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#34 » by Little Nathan » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:03 pm

Porzingis complaining about not being involved when he can’t dribble or pass at all just tells me all I need to know. He’s a spot-up shooter who can be good as a cutter. That’s how Dallas used him and he wasn’t even good at that.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#35 » by Little Nathan » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:05 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
1. The fit with Lauri is extremely bad. You seem to think Porzingis is a positive on defense? Well, he’s not. Like, not even close. Can’t defend in space, stiff as hell (probably due to the injuries) and absolutely zero strength. On offense, they kind of like to do the same things, neither guy can pass or post up, both are essentially going to wait for spot-up opportunities. Zero versatility. Letting Lauri walk also doesn’t bother me one bit.

2. I highly doubt he would get a similar contract and if he did, it would just be a desperate stupid team doing it based on his undeserved reputation as a guy who could somehow turn into a star.

3. I kind of mentioned it already, but the dude is as unreliable as they come with his health. Just never really available. Even when he’s playing, he’s always playing through something. Both knees are toast.

You can call me biased for whatever reason, but I don’t see this guy as a positive asset at between 31 and 36 mil in the next 3 years.


I just wanted to point out that KP actually does post up quite a bit. He was 15th in post possessions last season, and only these guys posted up more:

Embiid
Jokic
Randle
Sabonis
KAT
Vuc
Valanciunas
Ayton
Zion
Melo
Giannis
Harrell
AD
Tobias Harris

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up/?sort=POSS&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals


My point was that he’s not good at it. You can easily get away with putting a significantly smaller player on him.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#36 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:38 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:I just wanted to point out that KP actually does post up quite a bit. He was 15th in post possessions last season, and only these guys posted up more:

Embiid
Jokic
Randle
Sabonis
KAT
Vuc
Valanciunas
Ayton
Zion
Melo
Giannis
Harrell
AD
Tobias Harris

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up/?sort=POSS&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals


My point was that he’s not good at it. You can easily get away with putting a significantly smaller player on him.


Gotcha.

This past season, he was slightly above-average as a scorer in the post, but he certainly doesn't generate looks for his teammates like Vuc does. Not when he only averages 1.2 assists/game.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#37 » by Almost Retired » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:17 pm

KP at his current playing value is barely worth the MLE, let alone the $32 - 35 Million he's under contract for over the next couple of seasons. He might now hold the league's worst contract. Beal's deal is way up there but at least he produces at an All Star level consistently year after year.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#38 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:42 pm

Almost Retired wrote:KP at his current playing value is barely worth the MLE, let alone the $32 - 35 Million he's under contract for over the next couple of seasons. He might now hold the league's worst contract. Beal's deal is way up there but at least he produces at an All Star level consistently year after year.


KP is overpaid, no doubt about it - but saying he's only worth the MLE is a joke.

He just averaged 20.1 pts, 8.9 reb, and 1.3 blk. Here's the list of everyone in the NBA who averaged 20+, 8+ and 1+ this season:

Giannis
Embiid
KAT
KP
Christian Wood
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#39 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 pm

Almost Retired wrote:KP at his current playing value is barely worth the MLE, let alone the $32 - 35 Million he's under contract for over the next couple of seasons. He might now hold the league's worst contract. Beal's deal is way up there but at least he produces at an All Star level consistently year after year.


I don’t Beal is up there at all when you have guys like Porzingis, John Wall, Andrew Wiggins, Kevin Love, Kemba Walker etc collecting outrageous checks. Beal is just on a bad team.
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Re: NBA Trade Thread # 4 

Post#40 » by gobullschi » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:55 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:KP at his current playing value is barely worth the MLE, let alone the $32 - 35 Million he's under contract for over the next couple of seasons. He might now hold the league's worst contract. Beal's deal is way up there but at least he produces at an All Star level consistently year after year.


KP is overpaid, no doubt about it - but saying he's only worth the MLE is a joke.

He just averaged 20.1 pts, 8.9 reb, and 1.3 blk. Here's the list of everyone in the NBA who averaged 20+, 8+ and 1+ this season:

Giannis
Embiid
KAT
KP
Christian Wood


A lot of people talking out of their @ss. Kudos to silencing all of these poor anti KP takes that aren’t factual at all.

:clap:

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