NBA Trade Thread # 4

[sco]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/warriors-andrew-wiggins-gets-only-225827519.html

Just want to put the Wiggins idea out there again in light of article (and my comments in other threads). Post ASB (albeit alongside Steph) he put numbers ALMOST worth his contract (20ppg, shooting 41% on 5.4 3's, with 1 block and 1 steal) Taking back our 1 yr contracts saves GS a ton of tax.

[gobullschi]

It’s OK if they can’t address every ‘weakness’ in one offseason… I agree that the Bulls would lack some rim protection, but that will likely always be the case with Vucevic at center. I had the Bulls *draft* Charles Bassey who averaged over 3BPG to add some rim protection and there are a couple other players that could be available in the 2nd (ala Gafford). They also have a 1st next year and could use the MLE (next offseason).

There’s also an avenue where the Bulls could extend Daniel Theis (they own his bird rights), but it would depend on how the Bulls acquired Lonzo Ball (plus contracts of Oubre and Ball). On this board, Lonzo Ball’s sign and trade value keeps skyrocketing for some reason (I don’t think that’s reality). IMO, the deal has always been a Markkanen for Lonzo swap (no additional assets).

I don't know about Oubre - AK and BD may love multi-positional defensive players, but they also love shooting - and Oubre is a career 32.6% shooter from 3 who only shot 31.6% last season. And GS has major, serious luxury tax problems, they might prefer to just let Oubre walk.

And I'll keep typing it as long as I keep reading it - a Lonzo for Lauri double S&T without adding salary is mathematically impossible unless both teams are well under the salary cap.

I would rather give TBJ a shot to get real minutes this season. His 3pt shot isn't great, but he's on par with Oubre and is only 21.

The addition of Kelly Oubre wouldn’t prevent TBJ to get real minutes this season. There are plenty of minutes available for the backup SG and SF roles and is an ideal fit next to Coby White because of his playmaking ability.

FWIW - I’m a big believer in TBJ.

Stockpiling athletic wings and developing them is the best approach because they hold a lot of value. This is a tactic Toronto has been doing the last few years.

[sco]

I don't know about Oubre - AK and BD may love multi-positional defensive players, but they also love shooting - and Oubre is a career 32.6% shooter from 3 who only shot 31.6% last season. And GS has major, serious luxury tax problems, they might prefer to just let Oubre walk.

And I'll keep typing it as long as I keep reading it - a Lonzo for Lauri double S&T without adding salary is mathematically impossible unless both teams are well under the salary cap.

I would rather give TBJ a shot to get real minutes this season. His 3pt shot isn't great, but he's on par with Oubre and is only 21.

The addition of Kelly Oubre wouldn’t prevent TBJ to get real minutes this season. There are plenty of minutes available for the backup SG and SF roles and is an ideal fit next to Coby White because of his playmaking ability.

FWIW - I’m a big believer in TBJ.

Stockpiling athletic wings and developing them is the best approach because they hold a lot of value. This is a tactic Toronto has been doing the last few years.

No issue in a vacuum, but IMO, the opportunity cost is leaving us with holes at PG and a rim protector.

[RoseTheFuture22]

Thaddeus Young for Kelly Oubre (S&T)

Moving Thaddeus Young to Golden State would be another move to help rehabilitate the leagues view of the Bulls organization. Thad has been a stand up vet for Chicago, so moving him to a contender is the classy thing to do. He would be a great fit in Golden State, filling that Draymond Green-lite role off the bench. AK and BD loves versatile players that can guard multiple positions, which is exactly what Kelly Oubre (25) brings to the table.

Sign Lonzo Ball

The Bulls have been rumored to be interested in Lonzo Ball for years. It was reported that New York and Chicago are his preferred destinations and LaVine seems to be in hot pursuit (recruiting). Lonzo Ball has always been an ideal fit next to LaVine and will help create easier scoring opportunities for Patrick Williams and Kelly Oubre.

Lonzo Ball / Coby White
Zach Lavine / Garrett Temple
Kelly Oubre / Troy Brown Jr.
Patrick Williams / Al-Farouq Aminu
Nikola Vucevic / Charles Bassey (#38)

The plan is simple...Surround Lavine and Vucevic with a bunch of athletic defenders and put the new 'player development system' to the test.

Oubre would be nice, but IMO, he is somewhat duplicative (albeit still better) with PWill. And normally, that would be a good thing. I just think if we are rolling with Vuc at C, we'll need more rim protection and I don't think we can nab both Oubre and resign Theis.

Sign me up for Oubre, he might have some skill overlap with Pat but if we've seen anything over the last few years and the playoffs it is that you can never have enough versatile wing players. He would help defensively and bring more athleticism which I think is one of the biggest weaknesses on the team still

[CobyWhite0]

I would rather give TBJ a shot to get real minutes this season. His 3pt shot isn't great, but he's on par with Oubre and is only 21.

The addition of Kelly Oubre wouldn’t prevent TBJ to get real minutes this season. There are plenty of minutes available for the backup SG and SF roles and is an ideal fit next to Coby White because of his playmaking ability.

FWIW - I’m a big believer in TBJ.

Stockpiling athletic wings and developing them is the best approach because they hold a lot of value. This is a tactic Toronto has been doing the last few years.

No issue in a vacuum, but IMO, the opportunity cost is leaving us with holes at PG and a rim protector.

It depends on the cost. If Oubre wants to sign for the Full MLE (about $9.5 million next season), I'm more than fine with that. But I think he gets more than that from a team with cap space.

[gobullschi]

The addition of Kelly Oubre wouldn’t prevent TBJ to get real minutes this season. There are plenty of minutes available for the backup SG and SF roles and is an ideal fit next to Coby White because of his playmaking ability.

FWIW - I’m a big believer in TBJ.

Stockpiling athletic wings and developing them is the best approach because they hold a lot of value. This is a tactic Toronto has been doing the last few years.

No issue in a vacuum, but IMO, the opportunity cost is leaving us with holes at PG and a rim protector.

It depends on the cost. If Oubre wants to sign for the Full MLE (about $9.5 million next season), I'm more than fine with that. But I think he gets more than that from a team with cap space.

There is no way he signs for only $9.5M. I’m guessing he gets between $15-18M/annually, which would be worth it IMO. As previously mentioned, watching the playoffs highlights the importance of versatile wings.

[Andi Obst]

I also think Oubre gets far more than the MLE, but I don’t think he’s worth it. Just not a reliably good player on either end.

[TheSuzerain]

Re: Wiggins but also the league in general.

The value of individual scoring is perhaps at an all time low. For the first time ever, I feel like a team's leading scorer and their best player has become decoupled (Jazz, Suns, Nuggets with Murray last year).

So you really shouldn't just be looking at a guy's scoring numbers and acting like they are worth $20 million a year.

[CobyWhite0]

I also think Oubre gets far more than the MLE, but I don’t think he’s worth it. Just not a reliably good player on either end.

Agreed 100%. He'll probably wind up like a whole crapload of players who are either Oubre's age (25) or just coming off their rookie deals (or both) - he'll get a contract in the $15-$20 million range on a 2-3 year deal, be wildly overpaid by some team with cap space burning a hole in their pocket, and then wind up signing for the MLE AT BEST after that deal expires.

[RoseTheFuture22]

I also think Oubre gets far more than the MLE, but I don’t think he’s worth it. Just not a reliably good player on either end.

Agreed 100%. He'll probably wind up like a whole crapload of players who are either Oubre's age (25) or just coming off their rookie deals (or both) - he'll get a contract in the $15-$20 million range on a 2-3 year deal, be wildly overpaid by some team with cap space burning a hole in their pocket, and then wind up signing for the MLE AT BEST after that deal expires.

I think at around 4 years at $13-$17 million per year he is good value. If it gets to $20 million a year though then that's probably too much. THese are some of the contracts signed by comparable players last season by similar players and none of them have been really bad at all so far

Malik Beasly: 4 yr/$60 million
KCP 3 year/$40 million
Crowder 3 year/$30 million
Jerami Grant 3 year/$60 million
Marcus Morris 4 year/ $64 million

[CobyWhite0]

I also think Oubre gets far more than the MLE, but I don’t think he’s worth it. Just not a reliably good player on either end.

Agreed 100%. He'll probably wind up like a whole crapload of players who are either Oubre's age (25) or just coming off their rookie deals (or both) - he'll get a contract in the $15-$20 million range on a 2-3 year deal, be wildly overpaid by some team with cap space burning a hole in their pocket, and then wind up signing for the MLE AT BEST after that deal expires.

I think at around 4 years at $13-$17 million per year he is good value. If it gets to $20 million a year though then that's probably too much. THese are some of the contracts signed by comparable players last season by similar players and none of them have been really bad at all so far

Malik Beasly: 4 yr/$60 million
KCP 3 year/$40 million
Crowder 3 year/$30 million
Jerami Grant 3 year/$60 million
Marcus Morris 4 year/ $64 million

Those are good examples, but different:

Beasley is a career 39.1% 3pt shooter
KCP re-signed with the defending champs (who didn't have much choice)
Crowder signed for the Full MLE
Grant wanted to go be a 1st option, and he put up 22/game this season.
Morris has shot 41% and 47% on 3's the last 2 seasons(on 5+ att/game). And 38% for his career.

If Oubre was even a league-average 36.7% 3pt shooter, I'd say $14-$15 million per season is fair. But a career 32.6% from 3? I'll still pass at anything more than the MLE.

I just don't think Oubre is worth giving up an asset for, which is why the MLE would be perfect. I'd give the Warriors Aminu in a S&T to pay him a little more than the MLE, but no way in hell are they going for that. With their horrible luxury tax situation, they are much better off letting him walk. IMO of course, maybe their owners don't mind having a LT bill that doubles their actual payroll - but I don't see that being the case any more,

[MisterRoy]

Bulls really screwed themselves out of being able to actually pursue FAs by taking back Aminu. That was a major gaffe.

We needed to replace Felicio as the Team's most wasteful use of the salary cap.

Isn't he off the books as of this off-season?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

[gobullschi]

I also think Oubre gets far more than the MLE, but I don’t think he’s worth it. Just not a reliably good player on either end.

Agreed 100%. He'll probably wind up like a whole crapload of players who are either Oubre's age (25) or just coming off their rookie deals (or both) - he'll get a contract in the $15-$20 million range on a 2-3 year deal, be wildly overpaid by some team with cap space burning a hole in their pocket, and then wind up signing for the MLE AT BEST after that deal expires.

I think at around 4 years at $13-$17 million per year he is good value. If it gets to $20 million a year though then that's probably too much. THese are some of the contracts signed by comparable players last season by similar players and none of them have been really bad at all so far

Malik Beasly: 4 yr/$60 million
KCP 3 year/$40 million
Crowder 3 year/$30 million
Jerami Grant 3 year/$60 million
Marcus Morris 4 year/ $64 million

Agreed.

That contract is based more of a projection of what his production will be in the future, than his ‘career stats’. These types of signings are inherently risky, but often times necessary once the top free agents have been signed. AK could get creative to try and mitigate that risk by offering a front-loaded contract and include performance incentives. Some of the guys you have listed weren’t offered fully guaranteed contracts, which is another good way to mitigate some risk.

One other factor that Oubre brings to the Bulls is an edge, which is something we’ve been missing since Joakim Noah (maybe BP?). The Bulls have plenty of “good guys” on the roster, but every team needs that big personality to break up the monotonous routine.

[Bulldog23]

Kuzma for a sign trade of Laurie, Thad, Aminu, or Sato...I would do in a heart beat. I like the idea of playing him next To Vu and moving Pat to three. Laurie makes the most sense because of his shooting.

[sco]

I'd love a deal for Turner from Indy, but I'm doubting any combo of S&T Lauri, White, Thad, Sato gets that done. He's the one guy I'd rather get than keep Theis.

[Almost Retired]

Bulls really screwed themselves out of being able to actually pursue FAs by taking back Aminu. That was a major gaffe.

We needed to replace Felicio as the Team's most wasteful use of the salary cap.

Isn't he off the books as of this off-season?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Felicio is off the books. But we have Aminu for another year because he exercised his player option. So we have a dead weight player replacing a departing dead weight player eating up @ $10 Million of our salary cap.

[gardenofsound]

We needed to replace Felicio as the Team's most wasteful use of the salary cap.

Isn't he off the books as of this off-season?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Felicio is off the books. But we have Aminu for another year because he exercised his player option. So we have a dead weight player replacing a departing dead weight player eating up @ $10 Million of our salary cap.

These dead weight expiring contracts are not true dead weight if they can be used as salary filler in a trade. Honestly, it's probably a good idea to have 1-2 of these types of guys on the team when you're trying to turn the corner on a rebuild, because the valuable trade assets you may have are usually on their rookie deals.

Not that I loved the Vuc trade (I'm a bit up in the air about it at this point), but OPJ's expiring contract made the deal possible in the first place, since the real outgoing value from Chicago were WCJ and picks (which don't hold salary value in a trade).

[TheSuzerain]

Isn't he off the books as of this off-season?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Felicio is off the books. But we have Aminu for another year because he exercised his player option. So we have a dead weight player replacing a departing dead weight player eating up @ $10 Million of our salary cap.

These dead weight expiring contracts are not true dead weight if they can be used as salary filler in a trade. Honestly, it's probably a good idea to have 1-2 of these types of guys on the team when you're trying to turn the corner on a rebuild, because the valuable trade assets you may have are usually on their rookie deals.

Not that I loved the Vuc trade (I'm a bit up in the air about it at this point), but OPJ's expiring contract made the deal possible in the first place, since the real outgoing value from Chicago were WCJ and picks (which don't hold salary value in a trade).

yeah right. People said that BS about the Felicio contract for years.

And what happened? He expired and wasn't dealt.

It's dead money, and it's a negative. Period.

[gardenofsound]

Felicio is off the books. But we have Aminu for another year because he exercised his player option. So we have a dead weight player replacing a departing dead weight player eating up @ $10 Million of our salary cap.

These dead weight expiring contracts are not true dead weight if they can be used as salary filler in a trade. Honestly, it's probably a good idea to have 1-2 of these types of guys on the team when you're trying to turn the corner on a rebuild, because the valuable trade assets you may have are usually on their rookie deals.

Not that I loved the Vuc trade (I'm a bit up in the air about it at this point), but OPJ's expiring contract made the deal possible in the first place, since the real outgoing value from Chicago were WCJ and picks (which don't hold salary value in a trade).

yeah right. People said that BS about the Felicio contract for years.

And what happened? He expired and wasn't dealt.

It's dead money, and it's a negative. Period.

Yet for OPJ it ended up working out...

That Felicio wasn't included isn't some type of indictment that says that these are blanket bad assets to have. We've seen these types of players/contracts moved in big deals as salary filler just about every year. Not having someone like that can make salary matching on trades for stars pretty difficult. It actually offers some flexibility with trades (though hampers FA flexibility).

[CobyWhite0]

These dead weight expiring contracts are not true dead weight if they can be used as salary filler in a trade. Honestly, it's probably a good idea to have 1-2 of these types of guys on the team when you're trying to turn the corner on a rebuild, because the valuable trade assets you may have are usually on their rookie deals.

Not that I loved the Vuc trade (I'm a bit up in the air about it at this point), but OPJ's expiring contract made the deal possible in the first place, since the real outgoing value from Chicago were WCJ and picks (which don't hold salary value in a trade).

yeah right. People said that BS about the Felicio contract for years.

And what happened? He expired and wasn't dealt.

It's dead money, and it's a negative. Period.

Yet for OPJ it ended up working out...

That Felicio wasn't included isn't some type of indictment that says that these are blanket bad assets to have. We've seen these types of players/contracts moved in big deals as salary filler just about every year. Not having someone like that can make salary matching on trades for stars pretty difficult. It actually offers some flexibility with trades (though hampers FA flexibility).

Saying these deals are ALWAYS dead money and ALWAYS a negative is just ignorant, plain and simple.

There are literally dozens and dozens of trades over the last 5-10 years (and longer) that wouldn't have happened without one of the teams having a large (if not HUGE) expiring contract.

Bringing up Felicio is downright comical - people saying it "for years" has NOTHING to do with being an EXPIRING contract - which he wasn't until this past season.

It's like saying Trade Exceptions are worthless simply because you have one that expires because you couldn't find a trade to use it in.

Or saying a top-5 draft pick is useless because the player who gets drafted there turns out to be a bust.