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Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months

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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#61 » by ChettheJet » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:19 pm

Was Coby practicing with Siakam?
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#62 » by TheStig » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 pm

dougthonus wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:I want the Ball out of Zach’s hands as our lead guard.


Whether it is in his hands as lead guard or secondary guard, it's going to be in his hands a whole heck of a lot, and when it's not in his hands, its going to be in Vuc's hands a heck of a lot. It's not going to be in another players hands nearly as much as those two players unless you are able to get a star level PG that we clearly aren't going to get in any obvious well defined way (ie, cap room).

I still think it's beneficial to have a another facilator on the floor and being the primary ball handler. Zach is a little too turn over prone for that and we could definitely use someone to run the offense at a higher level when he's out.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#63 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:48 pm

TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:I want the Ball out of Zach’s hands as our lead guard.


Whether it is in his hands as lead guard or secondary guard, it's going to be in his hands a whole heck of a lot, and when it's not in his hands, its going to be in Vuc's hands a heck of a lot. It's not going to be in another players hands nearly as much as those two players unless you are able to get a star level PG that we clearly aren't going to get in any obvious well defined way (ie, cap room).

I still think it's beneficial to have a another facilator on the floor and being the primary ball handler. Zach is a little too turn over prone for that and we could definitely use someone to run the offense at a higher level when he's out.


I agree it is beneficial to have another facilitator. A lot depends what else we do, but if we don't keep Theis or Lauri, our 4/5 positions are going to be Pat Williams (Whom will need to use half his minutes at the 3), Thad Young (capped at 25ish minutes a game), and Vucevic (capped at 32ish minutes a game?).

To get someone meaningfully better than Sato/Coby/LaVine/Temple, you're going to need to pay quite a bit of money, and you're going to not have much left to do anything else with your roster. You're then playing a lot of small ball and putting yourself in really dire straights if you have a front court injury.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#64 » by CobyWhite0 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:18 pm

sco wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
sco wrote:I can't believe I'm debating about Coby White with CobyWhite0, but it's Friday.

So CobyWhite0, do you see Coby White as:

A) A legitimate starting PG option for the Bulls next season
B) If not (A), a likely future top 15 starting NBA PG
C) A helpful bench contributor (ie 6th man)


A) I think it's 100% certain that he's a legitimate option for next season - based on the fact that (according to B-R.com) he played 90% of his minutes at PG this season.

B) Maybe? It's impossible to say, without knowing what team he's on, and who his teammates are. Who knows if he's even going to be playing PG in the future?

C) Again, who knows? Again without knowing what team he's on and who his teammates are, it's impossible to say. If he's a starter, he obviously can't be a 6th man.

It seems like people love projecting how a guy's career is going to play out after only a year or two in the league, but I don't play that game. It seems pointless to me, because there are dozens of variables that are going to help determine that. I don't follow college hoops, and I don't follow the draft either.

And just for the record, CobyWhite0 is just a username. I don't care about Coby any more or any less than any other human wearing a Bulls uniform. IIRC correctly, when I registered my account, I tried ZachLavine8 and it was taken. I don't remember if I tried LauriMarkkanen24 or WendellCarter34 or PatrickWilliams9 etc, because it didn't matter one bit.

All good on username!

On A) basing the legitimacy of him being our starting PG next season because he played mostly PG this season is a true, but silly comment. I actually was fine giving him the season to see what he could do as a PG, but the season's over and he flat out sucked at PG. And while he did improve on the many many silly TO's by the end of the season, he has tunnel-vision and showed zero ability to set-up his guys for better shots, and his defense against good PG's was awful.

On B) good PG's are good, even on mediocre and bad teams. I just don't the points I noted as his flaws are remotely fixable to the point that he'd be better than half the starting PG's in the league.

On C) it was the right answer, but I never expected you to say that (but I had hope). I feel pretty safe predicting the career of most players after their second year - at least to the point where I feel good or bad about them ever being a top 15 at their position during their career.


That's where we differ. I guess I'm just old, but I've seen lots of players struggle their first 2 seasons, only to become All-Stars down the road. And I've seen lots of players who were very good in their first and second season but didn't improve after that.

There are just too many variables:

How hard does the player work to improve his game
What kind of coaching does the player receive
What is the player's role on his team
What other players are on his team
Does the player stay healthy

And that's not a complete list, just off the top of my head.

There's an old saying that goes something like "If a player doesn't get it by his 3rd season, he's probably never going to get it". And it fits the NBA perfectly - because the way the NBA CBA works, there's absolutely no need to make any decisions until after the player's 3rd season, when he's eligible to sign an extension. Even then, in the NBA you have a 4th season to decide because of Restricted Free Agency.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#65 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:24 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
sco wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
A) I think it's 100% certain that he's a legitimate option for next season - based on the fact that (according to B-R.com) he played 90% of his minutes at PG this season.

B) Maybe? It's impossible to say, without knowing what team he's on, and who his teammates are. Who knows if he's even going to be playing PG in the future?

C) Again, who knows? Again without knowing what team he's on and who his teammates are, it's impossible to say. If he's a starter, he obviously can't be a 6th man.

It seems like people love projecting how a guy's career is going to play out after only a year or two in the league, but I don't play that game. It seems pointless to me, because there are dozens of variables that are going to help determine that. I don't follow college hoops, and I don't follow the draft either.

And just for the record, CobyWhite0 is just a username. I don't care about Coby any more or any less than any other human wearing a Bulls uniform. IIRC correctly, when I registered my account, I tried ZachLavine8 and it was taken. I don't remember if I tried LauriMarkkanen24 or WendellCarter34 or PatrickWilliams9 etc, because it didn't matter one bit.

All good on username!

On A) basing the legitimacy of him being our starting PG next season because he played mostly PG this season is a true, but silly comment. I actually was fine giving him the season to see what he could do as a PG, but the season's over and he flat out sucked at PG. And while he did improve on the many many silly TO's by the end of the season, he has tunnel-vision and showed zero ability to set-up his guys for better shots, and his defense against good PG's was awful.

On B) good PG's are good, even on mediocre and bad teams. I just don't the points I noted as his flaws are remotely fixable to the point that he'd be better than half the starting PG's in the league.

On C) it was the right answer, but I never expected you to say that (but I had hope). I feel pretty safe predicting the career of most players after their second year - at least to the point where I feel good or bad about them ever being a top 15 at their position during their career.


That's where we differ. I guess I'm just old, but I've seen lots of players struggle their first 2 seasons, only to become All-Stars down the road. And I've seen lots of players who were very good in their first and second season but didn't improve after that.

There are just too many variables:

How hard does the player work to improve his game
What kind of coaching does the player receive
What is the player's role on his team
What other players are on his team
Does the player stay healthy

And that's not a complete list, just off the top of my head.

There's an old saying that goes something like "If a player doesn't get it by his 3rd season, he's probably never going to get it". And it fits the NBA perfectly - because the way the NBA CBA works, there's absolutely no need to make any decisions until after the player's 3rd season, when he's eligible to sign an extension. Even then, in the NBA you have a 4th season to decide because of Restricted Free Agency.

Sure - not debating that guys CAN improve after their 2nd year. I'm just saying that the majority of guys who don't show much improvement over 2 years and weren't great to start with don't become the sorta starters you want to keep on your squad, and teams would have been better off selling early, rather than late. I put Coby in that camp.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#66 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:58 pm

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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#67 » by HomoSapien » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:59 pm

Interesting that Siakam's timetable is 5 months. I feel like the Bulls timetable always end up being longer than expected. 5 Months would put us close to the start of season.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#68 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:03 pm

HomoSapien wrote:Interesting that Siakam's timetable is 5 months. I feel like the Bulls timetable always end up being longer than expected. 5 Months would put us close to the start of season.


There actual timetables recently have always seemed to be longer than the estimates, though this past season I'm not sure that was true. Either way, they said "re-evaluate in 4 months", so that definitely doesn't strike me as "ready to go in four months" as a likely outcome. Seems like we should anticipate 5-6 months if re-evaluation is 4 months.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#69 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:04 pm

dougthonus wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Interesting that Siakam's timetable is 5 months. I feel like the Bulls timetable always end up being longer than expected. 5 Months would put us close to the start of season.


There actual timetables recently have always seemed to be longer than the estimates, though this past season I'm not sure that was true. Either way, they said "re-evaluate in 4 months", so that definitely doesn't strike me as "ready to go in four months" as a likely outcome. Seems like we should anticipate 5-6 months if re-evaluation is 4 months.

For Coby's it said 4-6 months.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#70 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:07 pm

sco wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Interesting that Siakam's timetable is 5 months. I feel like the Bulls timetable always end up being longer than expected. 5 Months would put us close to the start of season.


There actual timetables recently have always seemed to be longer than the estimates, though this past season I'm not sure that was true. Either way, they said "re-evaluate in 4 months", so that definitely doesn't strike me as "ready to go in four months" as a likely outcome. Seems like we should anticipate 5-6 months if re-evaluation is 4 months.

For Coby's it said 4-6 months.


I think the official press release just said 4 months to re-evaluate. The 4-6 was KC reporting based on sources of what they expect.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#71 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:10 pm

While I am not happy that Coby is injured. It makes me feel better that the FO may be forced to see things as I do, in that the Bulls cannot count on Coby next season - and find a starting PG and a bench scorer.

The real question was how he hurt it?
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#72 » by CobyWhite0 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:27 pm

sco wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
sco wrote:All good on username!

On A) basing the legitimacy of him being our starting PG next season because he played mostly PG this season is a true, but silly comment. I actually was fine giving him the season to see what he could do as a PG, but the season's over and he flat out sucked at PG. And while he did improve on the many many silly TO's by the end of the season, he has tunnel-vision and showed zero ability to set-up his guys for better shots, and his defense against good PG's was awful.

On B) good PG's are good, even on mediocre and bad teams. I just don't the points I noted as his flaws are remotely fixable to the point that he'd be better than half the starting PG's in the league.

On C) it was the right answer, but I never expected you to say that (but I had hope). I feel pretty safe predicting the career of most players after their second year - at least to the point where I feel good or bad about them ever being a top 15 at their position during their career.


That's where we differ. I guess I'm just old, but I've seen lots of players struggle their first 2 seasons, only to become All-Stars down the road. And I've seen lots of players who were very good in their first and second season but didn't improve after that.

There are just too many variables:

How hard does the player work to improve his game
What kind of coaching does the player receive
What is the player's role on his team
What other players are on his team
Does the player stay healthy

And that's not a complete list, just off the top of my head.

There's an old saying that goes something like "If a player doesn't get it by his 3rd season, he's probably never going to get it". And it fits the NBA perfectly - because the way the NBA CBA works, there's absolutely no need to make any decisions until after the player's 3rd season, when he's eligible to sign an extension. Even then, in the NBA you have a 4th season to decide because of Restricted Free Agency.

Sure - not debating that guys CAN improve after their 2nd year. I'm just saying that the majority of guys who don't show much improvement over 2 years and weren't great to start with don't become the sorta starters you want to keep on your squad, and teams would have been better off selling early, rather than late. I put Coby in that camp.


I don't see the rush to trade away a draft pick after 2 seasons - not when you have the player on a cheap contract for 2 more seasons. A big reason teams love 1st-round picks is that they get four years to develop players, rarely do they give up on a guy after 2 years. And if they do, it's because the player is much, much worse than Coby.

And if a guy sucks his first 2 seasons, what's the rush to trade him? He's not taking much salary cap space at all. And you're not getting anything in return if the guy sucks.

There is a reason lottery picks are rarely traded in their first 2 seasons - because teams understand that players need time to develop - especially nowadays, when most of them are 19 when drafted.

Sort of off-topic, but I remember when we traded Jimmy to rebuild. I was 100% against it, but commented that at the very least I would get some good laughs in the future when people started calling our draft picks busts (and saying they should be traded) if they weren't All-Stars by their 2nd season. That's when I was posting on Reddit, but I see the same thing since I joined this board.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#73 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:58 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
sco wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
That's where we differ. I guess I'm just old, but I've seen lots of players struggle their first 2 seasons, only to become All-Stars down the road. And I've seen lots of players who were very good in their first and second season but didn't improve after that.

There are just too many variables:

How hard does the player work to improve his game
What kind of coaching does the player receive
What is the player's role on his team
What other players are on his team
Does the player stay healthy

And that's not a complete list, just off the top of my head.

There's an old saying that goes something like "If a player doesn't get it by his 3rd season, he's probably never going to get it". And it fits the NBA perfectly - because the way the NBA CBA works, there's absolutely no need to make any decisions until after the player's 3rd season, when he's eligible to sign an extension. Even then, in the NBA you have a 4th season to decide because of Restricted Free Agency.

Sure - not debating that guys CAN improve after their 2nd year. I'm just saying that the majority of guys who don't show much improvement over 2 years and weren't great to start with don't become the sorta starters you want to keep on your squad, and teams would have been better off selling early, rather than late. I put Coby in that camp.


I don't see the rush to trade away a draft pick after 2 seasons - not when you have the player on a cheap contract for 2 more seasons. A big reason teams love 1st-round picks is that they get four years to develop players, rarely do they give up on a guy after 2 years. And if they do, it's because the player is much, much worse than Coby.

And if a guy sucks his first 2 seasons, what's the rush to trade him? He's not taking much salary cap space at all. And you're not getting anything in return if the guy sucks.

There is a reason lottery picks are rarely traded in their first 2 seasons - because teams understand that players need time to develop - especially nowadays, when most of them are 19 when drafted.

Sort of off-topic, but I remember when we traded Jimmy to rebuild. I was 100% against it, but commented that at the very least I would get some good laughs in the future when people started calling our draft picks busts (and saying they should be traded) if they weren't All-Stars by their 2nd season. That's when I was posting on Reddit, but I see the same thing since I joined this board.

It's a mute point now, but if some team offered us the 20th pick for Coby, I'd be all over it. IMO, his value will be 2nd rounder after next season. Right now I see Coby as a Denzel Valentine type guy - a guy who can shoot - but is streaky, but not do enough of the other stuff to ever amount to much.

On the Jimmy point - I was for the trade, but only because he was likely going to get a SUPERMAX if he stayed, and that would have been a dead-end path for building around.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#74 » by TheStig » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:11 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Whether it is in his hands as lead guard or secondary guard, it's going to be in his hands a whole heck of a lot, and when it's not in his hands, its going to be in Vuc's hands a heck of a lot. It's not going to be in another players hands nearly as much as those two players unless you are able to get a star level PG that we clearly aren't going to get in any obvious well defined way (ie, cap room).

I still think it's beneficial to have a another facilator on the floor and being the primary ball handler. Zach is a little too turn over prone for that and we could definitely use someone to run the offense at a higher level when he's out.


I agree it is beneficial to have another facilitator. A lot depends what else we do, but if we don't keep Theis or Lauri, our 4/5 positions are going to be Pat Williams (Whom will need to use half his minutes at the 3), Thad Young (capped at 25ish minutes a game), and Vucevic (capped at 32ish minutes a game?).

To get someone meaningfully better than Sato/Coby/LaVine/Temple, you're going to need to pay quite a bit of money, and you're going to not have much left to do anything else with your roster. You're then playing a lot of small ball and putting yourself in really dire straights if you have a front court injury.

I think we'll be operating over the cap. So I can't see us not keeping at least one of Theis or Lauri. I'll even go farther and say, I'll be surprised if Theis isn't back.

We're going to have to make some sort of trade to get that facilitator. I think the dream for the Bulls is a sign and trade of Lauri for that facilitator. An unlikely example is a Lauri for Ball sign and trade.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#75 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:38 pm

TheStig wrote:I think we'll be operating over the cap. So I can't see us not keeping at least one of Theis or Lauri. I'll even go farther and say, I'll be surprised if Theis isn't back.

We're going to have to make some sort of trade to get that facilitator. I think the dream for the Bulls is a sign and trade of Lauri for that facilitator. An unlikely example is a Lauri for Ball sign and trade.


Theis is definitely the X factor in a lot of decisions. I think we won't bring him back, but we'll see. They are really at a point where they have to decide to go all in on next year or wait a year where they can be 42M under the cap with legit stars available. If they spend their load now, they have used up all obvious avenues of future improvement, if they save their money for next year, they risk Zach walking and limit their ceiling in another year of a pretty limited window.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#76 » by MissileMike » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:47 pm

Great, now instead of working on his game, Coby will be rehabbing. This will probably rob him of the third year jump that many players make. :o
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#77 » by sco » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:56 pm

was it his shooting shoulder?
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#78 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:38 pm

sco wrote:was it his shooting shoulder?


No
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#79 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
sco wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
A) I think it's 100% certain that he's a legitimate option for next season - based on the fact that (according to B-R.com) he played 90% of his minutes at PG this season.

B) Maybe? It's impossible to say, without knowing what team he's on, and who his teammates are. Who knows if he's even going to be playing PG in the future?

C) Again, who knows? Again without knowing what team he's on and who his teammates are, it's impossible to say. If he's a starter, he obviously can't be a 6th man.

It seems like people love projecting how a guy's career is going to play out after only a year or two in the league, but I don't play that game. It seems pointless to me, because there are dozens of variables that are going to help determine that. I don't follow college hoops, and I don't follow the draft either.

And just for the record, CobyWhite0 is just a username. I don't care about Coby any more or any less than any other human wearing a Bulls uniform. IIRC correctly, when I registered my account, I tried ZachLavine8 and it was taken. I don't remember if I tried LauriMarkkanen24 or WendellCarter34 or PatrickWilliams9 etc, because it didn't matter one bit.

All good on username!

On A) basing the legitimacy of him being our starting PG next season because he played mostly PG this season is a true, but silly comment. I actually was fine giving him the season to see what he could do as a PG, but the season's over and he flat out sucked at PG. And while he did improve on the many many silly TO's by the end of the season, he has tunnel-vision and showed zero ability to set-up his guys for better shots, and his defense against good PG's was awful.

On B) good PG's are good, even on mediocre and bad teams. I just don't the points I noted as his flaws are remotely fixable to the point that he'd be better than half the starting PG's in the league.

On C) it was the right answer, but I never expected you to say that (but I had hope). I feel pretty safe predicting the career of most players after their second year - at least to the point where I feel good or bad about them ever being a top 15 at their position during their career.


That's where we differ. I guess I'm just old, but I've seen lots of players struggle their first 2 seasons, only to become All-Stars down the road. And I've seen lots of players who were very good in their first and second season but didn't improve after that.

There are just too many variables:

How hard does the player work to improve his game
What kind of coaching does the player receive
What is the player's role on his team
What other players are on his team
Does the player stay healthy

And that's not a complete list, just off the top of my head.

There's an old saying that goes something like "If a player doesn't get it by his 3rd season, he's probably never going to get it". And it fits the NBA perfectly - because the way the NBA CBA works, there's absolutely no need to make any decisions until after the player's 3rd season, when he's eligible to sign an extension. Even then, in the NBA you have a 4th season to decide because of Restricted Free Agency.


Well we know it won’t be the 3rd season for White.
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Re: Coby White gets shoulder surgery, re-evaluated in 4 months 

Post#80 » by Michael Jackson » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:19 pm

HearshotKDS wrote:Its not the end of the world, but players getting injured is definitely news you dont want to hear. Hopefully the Karmic debt from enduring his injury gets the Bulls luck with the lotto balls.



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