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Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update

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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1221 » by kodo » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:37 pm

DWhiteMamba wrote:If DeRozan had this kind of value, why didn't he opt out and take that sort of pay day a year early?

Chicago's starting salary is at $26M, Derozan was getting $28M w/ San Antonio.
His agent correctly gauged how much he would get in FA, at his current contract level. No reason to opt out. You need to be extremely sure you will get significantly more to make opting out a good play.

Derozan is a bad fit in San Antonio, but you have to realize this is more about San Antonio than Derozan. Your team is the absolute worst 3P shooting team in the league, in an era where 3P shooting is the dominant strategy. Derozan is the player who initiates an attack and then passes to the shooters. San Antonio is 30th in 3s made, 30th in 3s attempted, and 24th in 3 point accuracy.

Definitely Derozan didn't make sense there and that money should be used on shooters. Chicago has Lavine, Vucevic, Lonzo, White all as 3P shooters. Chicago is worst in the league at another category, drawing FTs. Derozan is 7th in the FTs in the league and makes as many as Giannis and more than Luka or Zion. The players that could solve Chicago's FT issue are largely unattainable... Trae Young, Steph Curry, Lillard, Kawhi Leonard. Derozan was the only player Chicago had a prayer of getting.

San Antonio having no need for Derozan makes sense. Chicago really wanting Derozan badly makes sense. The area where the two teams need the most help are totally opposite. For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1222 » by BullChit » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:05 pm

kodo wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:If DeRozan had this kind of value, why didn't he opt out and take that sort of pay day a year early?

Chicago's starting salary is at $26M, Derozan was getting $28M w/ San Antonio.
His agent correctly gauged how much he would get in FA, at his current contract level. No reason to opt out. You need to be extremely sure you will get significantly more to make opting out a good play.

Derozan is a bad fit in San Antonio, but you have to realize this is more about San Antonio than Derozan. Your team is the absolute worst 3P shooting team in the league, in an era where 3P shooting is the dominant strategy. Derozan is the player who initiates an attack and then passes to the shooters. San Antonio is 30th in 3s made, 30th in 3s attempted, and 24th in 3 point accuracy.

Definitely Derozan didn't make sense there and that money should be used on shooters. Chicago has Lavine, Vucevic, Lonzo, White all as 3P shooters. Chicago is worst in the league at another category, drawing FTs. Derozan is 7th in the FTs in the league and makes as many as Giannis and more than Luka or Zion. The players that could solve Chicago's FT issue are largely unattainable... Trae Young, Steph Curry, Lillard, Kawhi Leonard. Derozan was the only player Chicago had a prayer of getting.

San Antonio having no need for Derozan makes sense. Chicago really wanting Derozan badly makes sense. The area where the two teams need the most help are totally opposite. For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.


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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1223 » by Little Nathan » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:14 pm

kodo wrote:For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.


Man, just thinking about this blows my mind. Imagine the rage in a "Bulls sign McDermott! 3yrs/42 million" thread on this board.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1224 » by qianlong » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:58 pm

I'm still torn on Derozan signing, he has clear positives, FT, playmaking, but also clear negatives 3pt shooting and defense.
I guess my issue in reality goes back to the Vuc trade. I think the team needed a good defensive center who could do efficient scoring and clean the glass, and not a featured player. My usual target was M Turner.

Having a good defensive center could clean up some lapses on the defensive side. I would have preferred a Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Mark/Turner line up than the current Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Paw/Vuc. Better defense and IMHO also a better offense.

I mean the three best players on the team are known defensive liabilities. We may say Zach improved on ball, Vuc was on a decent defensive team, but we are looking at the bright side. In reality none of the three is very good. Ball and Paw may be better but they also are not difference makers.

I think this team is going to be bum slaying, and loosing to competent teams.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1225 » by MrSparkle » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:59 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
kodo wrote:For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.


Man, just thinking about this blows my mind. Imagine the rage in a "Bulls sign McDermott! 3yrs/42 million" thread on this board.


It is funny how $27m becomes this whopping huge overpay for a multi all-star coming off a good season…

Yet McDermott and Thad add up to more than that amount. They’re atleast good 8-seep rotation guys. Deep bench bums quickly add up: Sato, Aminu, Zach Collins combine for that same amount.

IMO Bulls mainly wanted to unload Aminu’s salary to keep some cap options open, thus the s&t and FRP. In a way maybe that was the last cost of the Vuc trade (or the cost to add Caruso, whatever way you want to look at it).
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1226 » by BeKuK » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:39 pm

I would easily go with DDR if we need 2 points and have enough time on the clock, while I would go with Zach if we need a 3pointer or a catch & shoot.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1227 » by gardenofsound » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:45 pm

Defensive performance will all come down to scheme and communication. This is where Donovan is going to have to earn his money. He's consistently had his teams in the top half on the defensive end. I still think that's feasible with this crew.

Compare this SL to last year:

PG White << Ball
SG LaVine
SF Rookie Williams ~ DeRozan
PF 2Y Williams > Markkanen
C Carter > Vucevic

It's only really at the C spot that defensive may have taken a step backward. We all talk about PW being great on defense, but honestly last year he just seemed mediocre. He should do better at PF.

I think the defensive concerns are overblown.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1228 » by FriedRise » Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:59 pm

From that clip, I'm happy that we finally got a couple of recruiters on the team in Zach and Vuc. DDR probably won't join Chicago if Vuc didn't approach him last year after the trade. I think Zach's been recruiting Lonzo and that's why he's here, and he even tried getting JaVale too during the Olympics.

Our top players are good at basketball, they're talking to other guys, and those other guys are saying yes! This is uncharted territory for the Bulls. Who knows who else they're talking to... but so far we have a photographic evidence of Zach sitting next to Zion... :wink:
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1229 » by DWhiteMamba » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:19 pm

kodo wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:If DeRozan had this kind of value, why didn't he opt out and take that sort of pay day a year early?

Chicago's starting salary is at $26M, Derozan was getting $28M w/ San Antonio.
His agent correctly gauged how much he would get in FA, at his current contract level. No reason to opt out. You need to be extremely sure you will get significantly more to make opting out a good play.

Derozan is a bad fit in San Antonio, but you have to realize this is more about San Antonio than Derozan. Your team is the absolute worst 3P shooting team in the league, in an era where 3P shooting is the dominant strategy. Derozan is the player who initiates an attack and then passes to the shooters. San Antonio is 30th in 3s made, 30th in 3s attempted, and 24th in 3 point accuracy.

Definitely Derozan didn't make sense there and that money should be used on shooters. Chicago has Lavine, Vucevic, Lonzo, White all as 3P shooters. Chicago is worst in the league at another category, drawing FTs. Derozan is 7th in the FTs in the league and makes as many as Giannis and more than Luka or Zion. The players that could solve Chicago's FT issue are largely unattainable... Trae Young, Steph Curry, Lillard, Kawhi Leonard. Derozan was the only player Chicago had a prayer of getting.

San Antonio having no need for Derozan makes sense. Chicago really wanting Derozan badly makes sense. The area where the two teams need the most help are totally opposite. For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that Pop coaches to the talents of the players he has. In 2014 we were bombing away from 3, because it fit the talent of the team. In 2017 we had Green and Kawhi bombing away in the starting line-up, we made Pau into a bench 3pt shooter because we understood we needed speed and shooting. Pop actually got LMA to gradually develop his 3pt shot, but when he first got here and refused to shoot 3s Pop had to work around that. When DDR was here, Pop had to work around his total non-shooting as well, but you can see he understood 3pt shooting was important because he was sitting better players to try and find enough shooting in the starting line-up (e.g. benching White for Forbes, which was a big mistake actually). In the 2019 playoff run when LMA and DDR were still refusing to shoot 3s, Pop made sure the other starters could shoot 3s even if they weren't technically speaking the "best" players. Forbes and Rudy Gay started that year, both dead-eyes from 3, and White was decent when he was open.

Now that Demar is gone, we can finally play properly again and have more shooting and spacing to maximise the talent of our young players. I expect us to be better without him. He was the reason we were a bad shooting team, not a victim of us hating shooting.

There is a difference between being a good 3pt shooter, and being an ok 3pt shooter from a set shot if the other team leaves you way, way open. Vuc, and to a lesser extent Ball, are in the latter camp. White and Lavine can flat out shoot, but one of them is coming off the bench. And before anyone complains, Ball's inability to create separation and his weird low release form mean he needs to be open. Other than that he's become a good shooter, and I actually like the Ball signing for you. I just think it's totally counteracted by the DDR pick up. Your guys will be less wide open, because nobody will guard DDR out there. Trust me, I've seen it. Nobody does.

As for the salary thing, that's ridculous. The whole reason to sign a long term contract is to mitigate the risk of an injury, etc, so you have security. The idea Demar had multi-year offers starting from $26 mill last year and turned them down to opt into his 1 remaining year with the Spurs because $27 mill is $1 mill more than $26 mill is laughable. There was no interest last summer in DDR for anything like that money, and we can see the same this summer until you guys spent on him (long after every other team had used their cap space, and passed on him). His other offer was the exception from the Clippers. It is obvious he had nothing like the value you assigned him.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1230 » by The Force. » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:44 pm

qianlong wrote:I'm still torn on Derozan signing, he has clear positives, FT, playmaking, but also clear negatives 3pt shooting and defense.
I guess my issue in reality goes back to the Vuc trade. I think the team needed a good defensive center who could do efficient scoring and clean the glass, and not a featured player. My usual target was M Turner.

Having a good defensive center could clean up some lapses on the defensive side. I would have preferred a Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Mark/Turner line up than the current Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Paw/Vuc. Better defense and IMHO also a better offense.

I mean the three best players on the team are known defensive liabilities. We may say Zach improved on ball, Vuc was on a decent defensive team, but we are looking at the bright side. In reality none of the three is very good. Ball and Paw may be better but they also are not difference makers.

I think this team is going to be bum slaying, and loosing to competent teams.


^^This

The issue really isn't signing DD, the issue is signing DD with Vuc as your starting C. Agreed that Turner would've been a better target as we probably don't give up two FRPs and our defense is leagues better. With that said, there's no guarantee we get DD without Vuc's recruiting efforts so you end up playing a game of counterfactuals *shrugs*
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1231 » by BullChit » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:00 am

BeKuK wrote:I would easily go with DDR if we need 2 points and have enough time on the clock, while I would go with Zach if we need a 3pointer or a catch & shoot.


DDR can set Zach up for exactly that too...

Its going to be great having 2 threats like that out there at crunch time... with Vuc/Zo/Coby/Caruso also spacing and spotting up... *chefs kiss
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1232 » by Dresden » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:12 am

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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1233 » by Jcool0 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:57 pm

The Force. wrote:
qianlong wrote:I'm still torn on Derozan signing, he has clear positives, FT, playmaking, but also clear negatives 3pt shooting and defense.
I guess my issue in reality goes back to the Vuc trade. I think the team needed a good defensive center who could do efficient scoring and clean the glass, and not a featured player. My usual target was M Turner.

Having a good defensive center could clean up some lapses on the defensive side. I would have preferred a Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Mark/Turner line up than the current Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Paw/Vuc. Better defense and IMHO also a better offense.

I mean the three best players on the team are known defensive liabilities. We may say Zach improved on ball, Vuc was on a decent defensive team, but we are looking at the bright side. In reality none of the three is very good. Ball and Paw may be better but they also are not difference makers.

I think this team is going to be bum slaying, and loosing to competent teams.


^^This

The issue really isn't signing DD, the issue is signing DD with Vuc as your starting C. Agreed that Turner would've been a better target as we probably don't give up two FRPs and our defense is leagues better. With that said, there's no guarantee we get DD without Vuc's recruiting efforts so you end up playing a game of counterfactuals *shrugs*


Not this. What doesn't make you better... Trading for Turner expecting him to be a 20/10 guy when all he has shown is being a 12/6 guy.
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1234 » by waffle » Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:03 pm

I still like the signing. I like having guys on the team who are actually good at basketball
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1235 » by MrSparkle » Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:58 pm

waffle wrote:I still like the signing. I like having guys on the team who are actually good at basketball


Very controversial statement around here. :lol:
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1236 » by qianlong » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:36 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
The Force. wrote:
qianlong wrote:I'm still torn on Derozan signing, he has clear positives, FT, playmaking, but also clear negatives 3pt shooting and defense.
I guess my issue in reality goes back to the Vuc trade. I think the team needed a good defensive center who could do efficient scoring and clean the glass, and not a featured player. My usual target was M Turner.

Having a good defensive center could clean up some lapses on the defensive side. I would have preferred a Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Mark/Turner line up than the current Ball/Lavine/Derozan/Paw/Vuc. Better defense and IMHO also a better offense.

I mean the three best players on the team are known defensive liabilities. We may say Zach improved on ball, Vuc was on a decent defensive team, but we are looking at the bright side. In reality none of the three is very good. Ball and Paw may be better but they also are not difference makers.

I think this team is going to be bum slaying, and loosing to competent teams.


^^This

The issue really isn't signing DD, the issue is signing DD with Vuc as your starting C. Agreed that Turner would've been a better target as we probably don't give up two FRPs and our defense is leagues better. With that said, there's no guarantee we get DD without Vuc's recruiting efforts so you end up playing a game of counterfactuals *shrugs*


Not this. What doesn't make you better... Trading for Turner expecting him to be a 20/10 guy when all he has shown is being a 12/6 guy.

IMHO in the current NBA the center position should not be the focal point of the offense unless we are talking about ouliers like Jokic. I mean outliers, i think that towns probably the current third best offensive center is not going to be conductive to wins. I've said this with regards to Vuc since before the trade, i remember a conversation with coldfish in this regard.
I think the focus should be on mobility, defense and efficient scoring. If a player can do more than that great, but there aren't much like that.
Vuc is a good player on a good contract, but he is not a true all star, and he made the team building harder. Still rooting for him to prove me wrong
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1237 » by Grodoboldo » Tue Sep 7, 2021 12:54 pm

Very good analysis no DDR on both ends of the court (with video!).

http://rollcallsportsnet.com/demar-derozan-report-how-is-his-fit-on-the-bulls/
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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1238 » by Cabbage bulls » Tue Sep 7, 2021 12:59 pm

DWhiteMamba wrote:
kodo wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:If DeRozan had this kind of value, why didn't he opt out and take that sort of pay day a year early?

Chicago's starting salary is at $26M, Derozan was getting $28M w/ San Antonio.
His agent correctly gauged how much he would get in FA, at his current contract level. No reason to opt out. You need to be extremely sure you will get significantly more to make opting out a good play.

Derozan is a bad fit in San Antonio, but you have to realize this is more about San Antonio than Derozan. Your team is the absolute worst 3P shooting team in the league, in an era where 3P shooting is the dominant strategy. Derozan is the player who initiates an attack and then passes to the shooters. San Antonio is 30th in 3s made, 30th in 3s attempted, and 24th in 3 point accuracy.

Definitely Derozan didn't make sense there and that money should be used on shooters. Chicago has Lavine, Vucevic, Lonzo, White all as 3P shooters. Chicago is worst in the league at another category, drawing FTs. Derozan is 7th in the FTs in the league and makes as many as Giannis and more than Luka or Zion. The players that could solve Chicago's FT issue are largely unattainable... Trae Young, Steph Curry, Lillard, Kawhi Leonard. Derozan was the only player Chicago had a prayer of getting.

San Antonio having no need for Derozan makes sense. Chicago really wanting Derozan badly makes sense. The area where the two teams need the most help are totally opposite. For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that Pop coaches to the talents of the players he has. In 2014 we were bombing away from 3, because it fit the talent of the team. In 2017 we had Green and Kawhi bombing away in the starting line-up, we made Pau into a bench 3pt shooter because we understood we needed speed and shooting. Pop actually got LMA to gradually develop his 3pt shot, but when he first got here and refused to shoot 3s Pop had to work around that. When DDR was here, Pop had to work around his total non-shooting as well, but you can see he understood 3pt shooting was important because he was sitting better players to try and find enough shooting in the starting line-up (e.g. benching White for Forbes, which was a big mistake actually). In the 2019 playoff run when LMA and DDR were still refusing to shoot 3s, Pop made sure the other starters could shoot 3s even if they weren't technically speaking the "best" players. Forbes and Rudy Gay started that year, both dead-eyes from 3, and White was decent when he was open.

Now that Demar is gone, we can finally play properly again and have more shooting and spacing to maximise the talent of our young players. I expect us to be better without him. He was the reason we were a bad shooting team, not a victim of us hating shooting.

There is a difference between being a good 3pt shooter, and being an ok 3pt shooter from a set shot if the other team leaves you way, way open. Vuc, and to a lesser extent Ball, are in the latter camp. White and Lavine can flat out shoot, but one of them is coming off the bench. And before anyone complains, Ball's inability to create separation and his weird low release form mean he needs to be open. Other than that he's become a good shooter, and I actually like the Ball signing for you. I just think it's totally counteracted by the DDR pick up. Your guys will be less wide open, because nobody will guard DDR out there. Trust me, I've seen it. Nobody does.

As for the salary thing, that's ridculous. The whole reason to sign a long term contract is to mitigate the risk of an injury, etc, so you have security. The idea Demar had multi-year offers starting from $26 mill last year and turned them down to opt into his 1 remaining year with the Spurs because $27 mill is $1 mill more than $26 mill is laughable. There was no interest last summer in DDR for anything like that money, and we can see the same this summer until you guys spent on him (long after every other team had used their cap space, and passed on him). His other offer was the exception from the Clippers. It is obvious he had nothing like the value you assigned him.

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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1239 » by DWhiteMamba » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:13 pm

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Re: Official: Bulls get DeRozan! 3yrs/$81,900,000 PG. 17 update 

Post#1240 » by sco » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:44 pm

Cabbage bulls wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:
kodo wrote:Chicago's starting salary is at $26M, Derozan was getting $28M w/ San Antonio.
His agent correctly gauged how much he would get in FA, at his current contract level. No reason to opt out. You need to be extremely sure you will get significantly more to make opting out a good play.

Derozan is a bad fit in San Antonio, but you have to realize this is more about San Antonio than Derozan. Your team is the absolute worst 3P shooting team in the league, in an era where 3P shooting is the dominant strategy. Derozan is the player who initiates an attack and then passes to the shooters. San Antonio is 30th in 3s made, 30th in 3s attempted, and 24th in 3 point accuracy.

Definitely Derozan didn't make sense there and that money should be used on shooters. Chicago has Lavine, Vucevic, Lonzo, White all as 3P shooters. Chicago is worst in the league at another category, drawing FTs. Derozan is 7th in the FTs in the league and makes as many as Giannis and more than Luka or Zion. The players that could solve Chicago's FT issue are largely unattainable... Trae Young, Steph Curry, Lillard, Kawhi Leonard. Derozan was the only player Chicago had a prayer of getting.

San Antonio having no need for Derozan makes sense. Chicago really wanting Derozan badly makes sense. The area where the two teams need the most help are totally opposite. For example, Chicago fans would have rioted if we spent $14M per year on Doug McDermott.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that Pop coaches to the talents of the players he has. In 2014 we were bombing away from 3, because it fit the talent of the team. In 2017 we had Green and Kawhi bombing away in the starting line-up, we made Pau into a bench 3pt shooter because we understood we needed speed and shooting. Pop actually got LMA to gradually develop his 3pt shot, but when he first got here and refused to shoot 3s Pop had to work around that. When DDR was here, Pop had to work around his total non-shooting as well, but you can see he understood 3pt shooting was important because he was sitting better players to try and find enough shooting in the starting line-up (e.g. benching White for Forbes, which was a big mistake actually). In the 2019 playoff run when LMA and DDR were still refusing to shoot 3s, Pop made sure the other starters could shoot 3s even if they weren't technically speaking the "best" players. Forbes and Rudy Gay started that year, both dead-eyes from 3, and White was decent when he was open.

Now that Demar is gone, we can finally play properly again and have more shooting and spacing to maximise the talent of our young players. I expect us to be better without him. He was the reason we were a bad shooting team, not a victim of us hating shooting.

There is a difference between being a good 3pt shooter, and being an ok 3pt shooter from a set shot if the other team leaves you way, way open. Vuc, and to a lesser extent Ball, are in the latter camp. White and Lavine can flat out shoot, but one of them is coming off the bench. And before anyone complains, Ball's inability to create separation and his weird low release form mean he needs to be open. Other than that he's become a good shooter, and I actually like the Ball signing for you. I just think it's totally counteracted by the DDR pick up. Your guys will be less wide open, because nobody will guard DDR out there. Trust me, I've seen it. Nobody does.

As for the salary thing, that's ridculous. The whole reason to sign a long term contract is to mitigate the risk of an injury, etc, so you have security. The idea Demar had multi-year offers starting from $26 mill last year and turned them down to opt into his 1 remaining year with the Spurs because $27 mill is $1 mill more than $26 mill is laughable. There was no interest last summer in DDR for anything like that money, and we can see the same this summer until you guys spent on him (long after every other team had used their cap space, and passed on him). His other offer was the exception from the Clippers. It is obvious he had nothing like the value you assigned him.

Hater alert!

I tend to agree with him though. Derozan is flawed and there's no way that he'll be worth his contract in year 3. If there's good news it's that he has clear strengths (half-court playmaking, drawing free throws and ISO scoring ability) that fill holes that we otherwise had. Defensively, IMO, Pat will just take the better offensive forward. I think DDR, flanked defensively by Ball and Pat will limit his exposure.
:clap:

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