WOJ: NBA investigating possible tampering: Update Bulls forfeit 2nd Round Pick pg. 31

[Betta Bulleavit]

Agreed. The Bulls and Pels can talk trade whenever they want. But the Bulls cannot negotiate a contract with Lonzo until after 5 pm, either directly or indirectly. The Bulls certainly cannot use the Pels to negotiate with Lonzo because that would create a hole in the tampering rules big enough to render them irrelevant.

Usually the tampering occurs but there are no sanctions because it cannot be proven. Here, we have Shams' tweet at 5:00 pm detailing the one part of the deal that could not be discussed until after 5:00 pm - the terms of Lonzo's contract with the Bulls. That pretty much seals the deal. It's just a question of how severe the penalty will be. And I have a bad feeling that it will be a FRP, a big fine and likely a suspension. The league has made it clear that it will take these issues seriously. Stupid move by AKME not to manage this better.

I think both you and HS are missing my primary point. This was a sign and trade. The “Sign” coming first in that sequence and the “Trade” coming last. Both of which NOP would have had to have initiated. Therefore, if the contract was negotiated, it’s not a forgone conclusion that the Bulls negotiated that with Lonzo. It’s just as likely that the Bulls were told that this was the deal that Lonzo was looking for, the Bulls said cool, we can do that, and then the deal was then negotiated between Lonzo and the Pelicans so that they could sign him and then trade him.

Again, maybe tampering did happen. But Shams reporting the deal right at 5 doesn’t necessarily prove that. All it proves is that the Bulls and Pelicans had agreed to a deal prior to the start of free agency. And without an electronic trail that proves the Bulls talked to Lonzo or his camp before then, this is all speculation.

What you are describing still falls within the ambit of the Bulls using the Pels to negotiate a contract with Lonzo. And that cannot happen until after 5 pm on the date in question. Stupid, stupid (by our FO). Just wait to announce it until 5:45 pm.

To your first point, the Pelicans can negotiate a contract with Lonzo before free agency because they’re the incumbent team. But you are correct in that they cannot do so on the Bulls behalf. But then there would need to be proof that that was happening. To your second point, Shams reporting it doesn’t mean that the Bulls ok’d that. That was very likely Shams doing Shams because he has the sources to do so.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

A thought I keep having is this: Woj/Shams tweeting it out at 5PM seems to be at the center of this, and these guys know how things work, and therefore that if they have information on their phones about a player agreeing to switch teams at 5PM on the dot, that there just might have been some not-by-the-rules communications going on, the type that lots of teams engage in, but few get caught in; that their tweeting said deals out to the world at 5PM would call attention to said fact. Does it not occur to them to simply sit on it for half an hour before tweeting it out in order to save everyone the trouble, if for no other reason, to not piss off their sources? They had to know they were potentially creating evidence that could be used against their sources.

[step]

We tampered. Now the question is whether or not the league can prove it to a degree that's satisfying to their standards and if so how severe the punishment is. The fact that we're already getting hints that it's going to be severe leads me to believe that the league has some pretty damning evidence.

Sounds like nobody bothered with burner phones .

[Hangtime84]

Read on Twitter

So wait, is NO in trouble here too or just us?

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSVQxYzgg8N/?utm_medium=share_sheet

[Jimmy Forums]

Okay the trade is official, announced by the team at 11 pm CST. I couldn’t give a **** about a fine for Jerry Reinsdorf; was just worried about our PG1.

Wonder if this could knock things loose and get other deals rolling.

[bad knees]

Okay the trade is official, announced by the team at 11 pm CST. I couldn’t give a **** about a fine for Jerry Reinsdorf; was just worried about our PG1.

Wonder if this could knock things loose and get other deals rolling.

Do you care about losing a FRP? A suspension for AKME?

[Betta Bulleavit]

Read on Twitter

So wait, is NO in trouble here too or just us?

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSVQxYzgg8N/?utm_medium=share_sheet

Thanks for the link. Just took a listen and it definitely sounds like both teams could be under the gun. But his position is almost exclusively based on when the deal was reported and how the fact that it’s a S&T is setting of the alarm bells. All of which is fair and proves they were talking. But I still don’t see how that guarantees that both teams are going to “get nailed”.

[Jimmy Forums]

Okay the trade is official, announced by the team at 11 pm CST. I couldn’t give a **** about a fine for Jerry Reinsdorf; was just worried about our PG1.

Wonder if this could knock things loose and get other deals rolling.

Do you care about losing a FRP? A suspension for AKME?

First round pick, no. We’re pretty much past that for now. And a suspension for AKME, what’s that even look like? No, honestly, not particularly worried about that either.

Getting confirmation that nothing will be voided, or no further tomfoolery to our roster building efforts right now will take place, is a huge win. The win we needed. Whatever consequences come from this suddenly relatively minor story are nothing compared to yanking the rug out on what we did.

[HomoSapien]

First round pick, no. We’re pretty much past that for now.

What makes you so sure about that?

[Jimmy Forums]

First round pick, no. We’re pretty much past that for now.

What makes you so sure about that?

I mean in the sense that we already have none, and we’re 1) seeming to build the team through other means for the next few years, and 2) should hopefully be a good team as a result and would theoretically have a pretty insignificant pick. So missing out on — what, one extra rookie — during this next run just doesn’t bother me as much as losing Lonzo, or having our entire offseason hanging in limbo for the next month would have.

I’ve never been a “don’t care about draft picks” guy, I love the draft. Just in our current circumstances, right now, losing a pick to have pulled off this rebuild seems worth it to me. If the Lonzo deal doesn’t happen, maybe Derozan doesn’t happen. LaVine isn’t as impressed by our FO’s commitment…who knows. Worth it IMO.

[bad knees]

Okay the trade is official, announced by the team at 11 pm CST. I couldn’t give a **** about a fine for Jerry Reinsdorf; was just worried about our PG1.

Wonder if this could knock things loose and get other deals rolling.

Do you care about losing a FRP? A suspension for AKME?

First round pick, no. We’re pretty much past that for now. And a suspension for AKME, what’s that even look like? No, honestly, not particularly worried about that either.

Getting confirmation that nothing will be voided, or no further tomfoolery to our roster building efforts right now will take place, is a huge win. The win we needed. Whatever consequences come from this suddenly relatively minor story are nothing compared to yanking the rug out on what we did.

Okay you’re in good shape then. Me? I’ll be pretty annoyed if this fiasco causes us to lose a FRP.

[Betta Bulleavit]

First round pick, no. We’re pretty much past that for now.

What makes you so sure about that?

HS, not that your response was to me, but I’ll offer my thoughts.

While I cannot be sure about what will happen, I don’t think the penalty will be anything more than a fine of a few million and MAYBE a second round pick. Here’s why:

1. The league could determine that the two teams had discussions that were outside the realm of what was considered legal, they’d still need to determine to what extent. And unless there’s an electronic trail that we aren’t privy to, it’s going to be hard for the league to do anything more than act on what they believe happened. I could see the league attempting to make a statement here. But not to the extent that it cripples either team.

2. While the tampering rules/policies are meant to protect the integrity and free agency, it’s mostly meant to ensure that incumbent teams be able to freely communicate and negotiate with their players without interference from other teams. In this case, it’s hard to ascertain that the Bulls were acting maliciously or with intent to undermine the incumbent team. This is evident based on the fact that said team saw fit to complete a deal that they felt was fair.

So all things considered, I can see some discipline just to put the rest of the league on notice. But I highly doubt FRPs will be involved.

[step]

First round pick, no. We’re pretty much past that for now.

What makes you so sure about that?

HS, not that your response was to me, but I’ll offer my thoughts.

While I cannot be sure about what will happen, I don’t think the penalty will be anything more than a fine of a few million and MAYBE a second round pick. Here’s why:

1. The league could determine that the two teams had discussions that were outside the realm of what was considered legal, they’d still need to determine to what extent. And unless there’s an electronic trail that we aren’t privy to, it’s going to be hard for the league to do anything more than act on what they believe happened. I could see the league attempting to make a statement here. But not to the extent that it cripples either team.

2. While the tampering rules/policies are meant to protect the integrity and free agency, it’s mostly meant to ensure that incumbent teams be able to freely communicate and negotiate with their players without interference from other teams. In this case, it’s hard to ascertain that the Bulls were acting maliciously or with intent to undermine the incumbent team. This is evident based on the fact that said team saw fit to complete a deal that they felt was fair.

So all things considered, I can see some discipline just to put the rest of the league on notice. But I highly doubt FRPs will be involved.

Adding to that - there would have to be some damning evidence to warrant a first round pick. Precedent has largely set with the Bucks where it was only a 2nd. Though if there is something more substantial, I can see them increasing the monetary fine. This will give the league the appearance of being firm/harsher.

[Axl Rose]

A thought I keep having is this: Woj/Shams tweeting it out at 5PM seems to be at the center of this, and these guys know how things work, and therefore that if they have information on their phones about a player agreeing to switch teams at 5PM on the dot, that there just might have been some not-by-the-rules communications going on, the type that lots of teams engage in, but few get caught in; that their tweeting said deals out to the world at 5PM would call attention to said fact. Does it not occur to them to simply sit on it for half an hour before tweeting it out in order to save everyone the trouble, if for no other reason, to not piss off their sources? They had to know they were potentially creating evidence that could be used against their sources.

Everybody wants to be first with the information. The sources should be smarter and hold back - I mean not even a minute into free agency opening they were quoting contract details from Rich Paul directly

[Michael Jackson]

A thought I keep having is this: Woj/Shams tweeting it out at 5PM seems to be at the center of this, and these guys know how things work, and therefore that if they have information on their phones about a player agreeing to switch teams at 5PM on the dot, that there just might have been some not-by-the-rules communications going on, the type that lots of teams engage in, but few get caught in; that their tweeting said deals out to the world at 5PM would call attention to said fact. Does it not occur to them to simply sit on it for half an hour before tweeting it out in order to save everyone the trouble, if for no other reason, to not piss off their sources? They had to know they were potentially creating evidence that could be used against their sources.

Everybody wants to be first with the information. The sources should be smarter and hold back - I mean not even a minute into free agency opening they were quoting contract details from Rich Paul directly

It’s a race to be the guy who breaks the news in Twitter world. If you aren’t the guy who breaks it you are nothing.

[chifan1798]

A thought I keep having is this: Woj/Shams tweeting it out at 5PM seems to be at the center of this, and these guys know how things work, and therefore that if they have information on their phones about a player agreeing to switch teams at 5PM on the dot, that there just might have been some not-by-the-rules communications going on, the type that lots of teams engage in, but few get caught in; that their tweeting said deals out to the world at 5PM would call attention to said fact. Does it not occur to them to simply sit on it for half an hour before tweeting it out in order to save everyone the trouble, if for no other reason, to not piss off their sources? They had to know they were potentially creating evidence that could be used against their sources.

If their sources weren’t the bulls or pelicans FO, I doubt the source will really care that much, because they aren’t getting punished, Besides, these people in the media want to be the first to break the news, they aren’t trying to wait, because someone else will one up them. Also now, they have a completely different story to talk about, that will drag on for days if not weeks, depending on how long the investigation takes.

[Grodoboldo]

Yo, Silver, the Bulls are one of your top 3 franchises and they've been stuck in the mud for half a decade.

You want to make a point, go after Bron, dude is on his last legs and runs a parallel power structure to yours that's been tampering out in the open for nearly a decade. Don't be a chicken and go after the real whales.

If I could, I would +1000 this. LeBron's conflict of interest is absurd! It doesn't matter if he's one of the most famous player in the league, this is the type of situation that must be dealt with immediately!!!
Like Doug said many times, player tampering is much more damaging, but also almost impossible to inhibit. But a player owning an agency???? Yeah, that could be dealt with.

[Grodoboldo]

Shams’ tweet announcing the Lonzo deal has a time stamp of 5:00 pm. The next tweet announcing a player changing teams was about the Lowry deal, with a time stamp of 5:38 pm. The next one after that was the McDermott deal at 5:43 pm.

The timeline is incredibly damning. The Bulls are going to get a big time penalty. It was really a stupid move by our FO. There was no need to do it this way. Have the calls sealing the deal after 5 pm and announce the deal at 5:45 pm. How hard is that?

To be fair, we don't know if it came from us. It could have come from Ball's camp. Still, we could/should have used KC to say that nothing has happened yet, and we're still negotiating with Ball.

It also didn't help that a day or two before free-agency started we kept getting alerts that Ball was planning on signing with Chicago.

The Ball signing was telegraphed, the Caruso one wasn't. If I had to guess, all of the Lonzo smoke was coming from his agents (Klutch, BTW) to maximize his media appearance. AK's signings usually don't leak that much.

[dougthonus]

Shams’ tweet announcing the Lonzo deal has a time stamp of 5:00 pm. The next tweet announcing a player changing teams was about the Lowry deal, with a time stamp of 5:38 pm. The next one after that was the McDermott deal at 5:43 pm.

The timeline is incredibly damning. The Bulls are going to get a big time penalty. It was really a stupid move by our FO. There was no need to do it this way. Have the calls sealing the deal after 5 pm and announce the deal at 5:45 pm. How hard is that?

To be fair, we don't know if it came from us. It could have come from Ball's camp. Still, we could/should have used KC to say that nothing has happened yet, and we're still negotiating with Ball.

It also didn't help that a day or two before free-agency started we kept getting alerts that Ball was planning on signing with Chicago.

The Ball signing was telegraphed, the Caruso one wasn't. If I had to guess, all of the Lonzo smoke was coming from his agents (Klutch, BTW) to maximize his media appearance. AK's signings usually don't leak that much.

The Lonzo signing absolutely came from BAll's camp. His agent was said to be the source on the 1st tweet about the deal, but my guess is that this is sort of irrelevant.

My guess is the Pelicans complained because Lonzo told them of the Bulls offer early and they knew there was early contact.

[Grodoboldo]

To be fair, we don't know if it came from us. It could have come from Ball's camp. Still, we could/should have used KC to say that nothing has happened yet, and we're still negotiating with Ball.

It also didn't help that a day or two before free-agency started we kept getting alerts that Ball was planning on signing with Chicago.

The Ball signing was telegraphed, the Caruso one wasn't. If I had to guess, all of the Lonzo smoke was coming from his agents (Klutch, BTW) to maximize his media appearance. AK's signings usually don't leak that much.

The Lonzo signing absolutely came from BAll's camp. His agent was said to be the source on the 1st tweet about the deal, but my guess is that this is sort of irrelevant.

My guess is the Pelicans complained because Lonzo told them of the Bulls offer early and they knew there was early contact.

I'll be chearing for Griffin to be fired.