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Rotations 

Post#1 » by MGB » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:30 pm

Was looking at possible lineup combinations etc and one thing came to mind and that is we have a much nicer mix of offensive and defensive players and mix matching those to get optimum results makes a lot of sense.

Like for instance I would have 2 of Lavine, DeRozan and Vucevic on court all the time.
I also would stagger Lavine and Derozan letting DeRozan cook with that 2nd unit a lot.

Caruso
White
Brown
DeRozan
Bradley

Like for example this is a potential 2nd unit lineup that works very well I think. You have DD being primary creator, White spotting up 3s, Bradley at the rim, Caruso as a connector offensively getting ball in right spots and Brown slashing. Also, in Caruso, Brown and Bradley there are 3 good defenders with White and DeRozan more offensive minded.

By same account I think a Lonzo, Lavine, Brown, Williams, Vucevic lineup works well the same way because you have only Lavine and Vooch as average or below average defenders.

Finally, dont sell short a Caruso, Lavine, Ball, Williams, Vucevic lineup because Caruso can be that point of attack defender and let Ball play D off the ball more which suits his strength and in this lineup Vucevic can be a trailing the fast break spotting up for 3s
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Re: Rotations 

Post#2 » by sco » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:59 pm

Line-ups I especially want to see (in addition to starting line-up) are:

Caruso, White, TBJ, DD, Bradley
Ball, Zach, TBJ, Pat, Vuc
Ball, White, TBJ, DD, Bradley
Caruso/Ayo, Green/Ayo, TBJ, DD, Vuc
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Re: Rotations 

Post#3 » by HomoSapien » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:00 pm

Our bench has a lot of holes, so I'd expect Derozan to play a lot with the second unit since he can score and create.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#4 » by IWannaGoHIGHER » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:46 pm

I think now that you have four starters that have proven to be at least above average playmakers, think Billy will be able to stagger to have at least two of Ball, Dezon, Lavine, Vooch on the floor at all times. Think you'll see a lot three guard line ups with Caruso, and White once healthy. And can use them based on matchups. But as the team is currently constructed, pretty clear gap between the starting five and bench.

In an ideal world, with everyone healthy. If you had a ten man rotation, would look roughly like this.

PG: Lonzo (32 mmpg) / Caruso (21 mmpg) / Ayo
SG: Zach (36 mmpg) / White (21 mmpg) / Green
SF: DeRozan (32 mmpg)/ TBJ (12 mmpg)/ TBD
PF: Pat (30 mmpg)/ Lauri or whomever we acquire for him, or use his cap space on (18 mmpg) / Marko
C: Vooch (32 mmpg)/ Bradley (16 mmpg) / TBD
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Re: Rotations 

Post#5 » by Grodoboldo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:21 am

MGB wrote: Finally, dont sell short a Caruso, Lavine, Ball, Williams, Vucevic lineup because Caruso can be that point of attack defender and let Ball play D off the ball more which suits his strength and in this lineup Vucevic can be a trailing the fast break spotting up for 3s


I'm fairly certain that is gonna be our closing lineup against most teams. 5 out multiple ball handlers on offense and a good PoA defender.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#6 » by sco » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:57 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:
MGB wrote: Finally, dont sell short a Caruso, Lavine, Ball, Williams, Vucevic lineup because Caruso can be that point of attack defender and let Ball play D off the ball more which suits his strength and in this lineup Vucevic can be a trailing the fast break spotting up for 3s


I'm fairly certain that is gonna be our closing lineup against most teams. 5 out multiple ball handlers on offense and a good PoA defender.

I think Billy will be able to do more than rigid line-ups this season and do things like offense/defense subs, situationally. There was a great post here (forget where) about a 3 man structure Billy used in the past that would be perfect for Zach,DD and Vuc on offense to end games.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#7 » by Grodoboldo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:33 pm

sco wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
MGB wrote: Finally, dont sell short a Caruso, Lavine, Ball, Williams, Vucevic lineup because Caruso can be that point of attack defender and let Ball play D off the ball more which suits his strength and in this lineup Vucevic can be a trailing the fast break spotting up for 3s


I'm fairly certain that is gonna be our closing lineup against most teams. 5 out multiple ball handlers on offense and a good PoA defender.

I think Billy will be able to do more than rigid line-ups this season and do things like offense/defense subs, situationally. There was a great post here (forget where) about a 3 man structure Billy used in the past that would be perfect for Zach,DD and Vuc on offense to end games.


Yeah, I think I remember it too. I agree, it's probably gonna be more situational, but I meant that even if Pat Will probably start most games, I don't think he'll finish them, and Caruso is more important to this roster than a lot of people think.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#8 » by dougthonus » Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:07 pm

HomoSapien wrote:Our bench has a lot of holes, so I'd expect Derozan to play a lot with the second unit since he can score and create.


We need four guys to be rotation quality out of:
Caruso, Coby, Bradley, TBJ, Simonovic, Ayo, Green, two to three guys yet to be signed

I feel okay about Caruso, Coby, Bradley, and TBJ managing that. Probably the bigger problem to me is lack of big man depth explicitly. Lauri on the QO probably does a ton to help both problems if it works out that way.

It's important to remember the bench doesn't need to be five guys that can play a solid rotation together. It has to be combinations of two or three guys that can compliment two to three starters as we stagger them.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#9 » by MGB » Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:47 pm

I feel okay about Caruso, Coby, Bradley, and TBJ managing that..

Doug, is it fair to say I am most concerned about TBJ out of that 4. I feel like we know what Caruso, Coby and Bradley can do but TBJ seems to me to be the biggest question mark and it makes me wonder if a perimeter veteran defender on the wing is not a bigger need than we realize. It has made me wonder if we should consider signing a Wesley Matthews type to help give us more perimeter defensive depth other than just TBJ.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#10 » by sco » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:09 pm

dougthonus wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Our bench has a lot of holes, so I'd expect Derozan to play a lot with the second unit since he can score and create.


We need four guys to be rotation quality out of:
Caruso, Coby, Bradley, TBJ, Simonovic, Ayo, Green, two to three guys yet to be signed

I feel okay about Caruso, Coby, Bradley, and TBJ managing that. Probably the bigger problem to me is lack of big man depth explicitly. Lauri on the QO probably does a ton to help both problems if it works out that way.

It's important to remember the bench doesn't need to be five guys that can play a solid rotation together. It has to be combinations of two or three guys that can compliment two to three starters as we stagger them.

Totally agree. Situationally and for injury insurance, I'd love to nab a defensively capable PF/C and an offensively capable PF/C. Guys who this site ( https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ ) says are still available for those are:

Defense
Jordan Bell
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Paul Millsap

Offense
Isaiah Hartenstein
DeMarcus Cousins
Ersan Ilyasova
Lauri


Two guys I didn't see were Vonley and Aldridge.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#11 » by MrSparkle » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:23 pm

IMO , Donovan was forced to go BIG after the trade deadline, and he didn't like it (nor did we)... and he's planning on playing wings at PF and guards at SF, just like he did in OKC and first half of the Bulls season. It may not take us that far, but the up-tempo pace is going to be better for Lonzo and LaVine. Also fits in line with what Artunas said last year ("fast, fun offense with a lot of passing").

Gallinari was Billy's full-time PF, and 210-pounder SFs Dort & Bazeley spotted. I think Pat will be a 80%+ PF, with DeRozan and Troy spotting. I expect we'll see 3-man combos of Lonzo-Caruso-Coby-Ayo, along with Zach at SF with the subs.

I expect a lot of staggering, with Zach and DeRozan swapping in-out into bench units. Caruso for Pat or DeRozan will probably be the first sub, bringing in a very short line-up.

I don't know why people think in terms of hockey subs, as in a 10-man rotation. I fore-see 4 bench guys playing in the 15-22 mpg range (Caruso, Troy, Coby, Bradley), with Marko, Ayo and Green sitting on ice until injuries or very poor performance (blowouts).
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Re: Rotations 

Post#12 » by sco » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:31 pm

MrSparkle wrote:IMO , Donovan was forced to go BIG after the trade deadline, and he didn't like it (nor did we)... and he's planning on playing wings at PF and guards at SF, just like he did in OKC and first half of the Bulls season. It may not take us that far, but the up-tempo pace is going to be better for Lonzo and LaVine. Also fits in line with what Artunas said last year ("fast, fun offense with a lot of passing").

Gallinari was Billy's full-time PF, and 210-pounder SFs Dort & Bazeley spotted. I think Pat will be a 80%+ PF, with DeRozan and Troy spotting. I expect we'll see 3-man combos of Lonzo-Caruso-Coby-Ayo, along with Zach at SF with the subs.

I expect a lot of staggering, with Zach and DeRozan swapping in-out into bench units. Caruso for Pat or DeRozan will probably be the first sub, bringing in a very short line-up.

I don't know why people think in terms of hockey subs, as in a 10-man rotation. I fore-see 4 bench guys playing in the 15-22 mpg range (Caruso, Troy, Coby, Bradley), with Marko, Ayo and Green sitting on ice until injuries or very poor performance (blowouts).

Don't forget blowouts in our favor. :wink:
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Re: Rotations 

Post#13 » by MrSparkle » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:43 pm

sco wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:IMO , Donovan was forced to go BIG after the trade deadline, and he didn't like it (nor did we)... and he's planning on playing wings at PF and guards at SF, just like he did in OKC and first half of the Bulls season. It may not take us that far, but the up-tempo pace is going to be better for Lonzo and LaVine. Also fits in line with what Artunas said last year ("fast, fun offense with a lot of passing").

Gallinari was Billy's full-time PF, and 210-pounder SFs Dort & Bazeley spotted. I think Pat will be a 80%+ PF, with DeRozan and Troy spotting. I expect we'll see 3-man combos of Lonzo-Caruso-Coby-Ayo, along with Zach at SF with the subs.

I expect a lot of staggering, with Zach and DeRozan swapping in-out into bench units. Caruso for Pat or DeRozan will probably be the first sub, bringing in a very short line-up.

I don't know why people think in terms of hockey subs, as in a 10-man rotation. I fore-see 4 bench guys playing in the 15-22 mpg range (Caruso, Troy, Coby, Bradley), with Marko, Ayo and Green sitting on ice until injuries or very poor performance (blowouts).

Don't forget blowouts in our favor. :wink:


Hopefully. Though I never expect a Chicago team to make anything easy. :lol: But I do think the Vegas odds are way too low.
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Re: Pat at 5? 

Post#14 » by WindyCityBorn » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:42 am

SaNdMiRkS wrote:I think he'll be able to get some (very) limited run there eventually, but that's way way down the road

He's still growing, mind you, and is on pace to reach 6'9/6'10 by age 21-22

Right now, he is best suited to playing the 4, and you hope that he ultimately winds up as a career SF. That's far from a guarantee, though. His handles are still really bad

I honestly like the C rotation of Vooch/Bradley/Marko. Marko is a good bit faster & quicker than was initially advertised


He will get there on the handle as long he puts the work in. Bulls seem to have him being a primary facilitator as a role down the line.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#15 » by sco » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:44 pm

Assuming Coby out for a while (it's the Bulls), I can see rotations like:

Ball, Zach, DDR, Pat, Vuc

Then sub out Ball, DDR, Pat and go Caruso, Zach, TBJ, AJ, Vuc - Without Coby, I see a 3 guard rotation with Ball, Zack and Caruso.

Then sub out Zach, TBJ and Vuc and go Caruso, Ball, DDR, Pat, Bradley - I'd like to see how the offense goes with Ball and Pat playing bigger roles against opposing benches, and DDR being the focal point in the half court with Caruso, Ball and Pat providing some spacing and defense.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#16 » by Grodoboldo » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:53 pm

sco wrote:Assuming Coby out for a while (it's the Bulls), I can see rotations like:

Ball, Zach, DDR, Pat, Vuc

Then sub out Ball, DDR, Pat and go Caruso, Zach, TBJ, AJ, Vuc - Without Coby, I see a 3 guard rotation with Ball, Zack and Caruso.

Then sub out Zach, TBJ and Vuc and go Caruso, Ball, DDR, Pat, Bradley - I'd like to see how the offense goes with Ball and Pat playing bigger roles against opposing benches, and DDR being the focal point in the half court with Caruso, Ball and Pat providing some spacing and defense.


DDR is our best ball handler in terms of creating for others, so I think that he'll play in some lineups where he'll be the lone starter. That won't be good for his +/- numbers, so expect the haters to come in hot.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#17 » by sco » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:43 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:
sco wrote:Assuming Coby out for a while (it's the Bulls), I can see rotations like:

Ball, Zach, DDR, Pat, Vuc

Then sub out Ball, DDR, Pat and go Caruso, Zach, TBJ, AJ, Vuc - Without Coby, I see a 3 guard rotation with Ball, Zack and Caruso.

Then sub out Zach, TBJ and Vuc and go Caruso, Ball, DDR, Pat, Bradley - I'd like to see how the offense goes with Ball and Pat playing bigger roles against opposing benches, and DDR being the focal point in the half court with Caruso, Ball and Pat providing some spacing and defense.


DDR is our best ball handler in terms of creating for others, so I think that he'll play in some lineups where he'll be the lone starter. That won't be good for his +/- numbers, so expect the haters to come in hot.

From a scoring perspective, I like the idea of having either 2 of our big 3 on the floor or 1 of our big 3 plus Ball and Pat. Defensively, I like the idea of having Pat and Ball largely stick with DDR to provide both floor spacing and defensive cover (and give those two more offensive responsibility for development).
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Re: Rotations 

Post#18 » by coldfish » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:17 pm

The players are so interchangeable that I have difficulty writing down all of the permutations.

The Bulls have a lot of guys who can create their own shot and many who can hit an open jumper. While I agree that DDR should be running the second unit, I'm not particularly worried about how a Caruso / White / TBJ / DDR / Bradley team will look going up against reserves and that's 4 bench guys + DDR.

IMO, depth is a strong suit of this team.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#19 » by Grodoboldo » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:42 pm

sco wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
sco wrote:Assuming Coby out for a while (it's the Bulls), I can see rotations like:

Ball, Zach, DDR, Pat, Vuc

Then sub out Ball, DDR, Pat and go Caruso, Zach, TBJ, AJ, Vuc - Without Coby, I see a 3 guard rotation with Ball, Zack and Caruso.

Then sub out Zach, TBJ and Vuc and go Caruso, Ball, DDR, Pat, Bradley - I'd like to see how the offense goes with Ball and Pat playing bigger roles against opposing benches, and DDR being the focal point in the half court with Caruso, Ball and Pat providing some spacing and defense.


DDR is our best ball handler in terms of creating for others, so I think that he'll play in some lineups where he'll be the lone starter. That won't be good for his +/- numbers, so expect the haters to come in hot.

From a scoring perspective, I like the idea of having either 2 of our big 3 on the floor or 1 of our big 3 plus Ball and Pat. Defensively, I like the idea of having Pat and Ball largely stick with DDR to provide both floor spacing and defensive cover (and give those two more offensive responsibility for development).


I agree, 2 out of our big 3 on the floor should be achievable most of the time, but we're bound to have some scattered minutes with only one of them playing. When that happens, I think DDR should be the guy. And yes, Ball and Pat are ideal partners in those lineups due to their 3&D profile.
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Re: Rotations 

Post#20 » by brentmoney » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:45 pm

coldfish wrote:The players are so interchangeable that I have difficulty writing down all of the permutations.

The Bulls have a lot of guys who can create their own shot and many who can hit an open jumper. While I agree that DDR should be running the second unit, I'm not particularly worried about how a Caruso / White / TBJ / DDR / Bradley team will look going up against reserves and that's 4 bench guys + DDR.

IMO, depth is a strong suit of this team.


yeah, as much as I've hand wringed about rim protection this team is pretty damn versatile.

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