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Coby White discussion thread

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Coby White discussion thread 

Post#1 » by sco » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:07 pm

I thought Coby deserved his own thread to discuss his future with the Bulls.

My current thoughts:

He showed flashes his rookie year, and I thought it was the right thing to do to give him a good hard look at PG last season (since that was, IMO, the main reason he was drafted). He has a good reputation as a high BBIQ guy with a good work ethic. That said, for most of last season he looked really bad at PG on both ends of the court. On offense, he was running a high TO rate, never really showed anything special by way of vision or passing, and his shooting percentages remained low. On defense, while he seems to put forth a good effort, he seems to lack the footspeed/length to guard opposing PG's and may have led the league in fouling 3pt shooters. The one part of his game that seemed to many as his strength was as a catch-and-shoot 3pt guy.

So we come into this season with Coby injured (shoulder - likely out until at least Nov). Which, coupled with his last season performance, makes him essentially untradeable until the trade deadline, at the earlies. Assuming he gets healthy early enough, this season will be his best chance to shine as a 6th man, with out 2nd unit being defensively capable and in need of scoring. Maybe the dual scoring/distributing responsibilities were holding him back as a pure scorer.

In terms of trading him at the deadline, I'm currently of the mind that getting a 1st round non-lotto pick would be fine with me. Now I could be swayed by a huge jump in efficiency from him. I'll add that my desire to trade him is more centered around my view that 6th men are seemingly easy to find in FA for between the Min and MLE, and less that Coby is a "bust" at age 21.

Discuss!
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#2 » by meekrab » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:08 pm

He's a small shooting guard, I predict he looks a lot better next to Caruso this season than LaVine last year.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#3 » by IliketheBullsNBearstoo » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:13 pm

meekrab wrote:He's a small shooting guard, I predict he looks a lot better next to Caruso this season than LaVine last year.


Small in what way? Short arms?
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#4 » by MGB » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:16 pm

Good thread and smart topic. I do think he will look better next to Caruso as that fits. With that said I don't necessarily think investing in him long term if we are going to have Ball, Lavine and Caruso makes sense. Those 3 could easily give us almost all the 96 guards minutes. Coby will be a solid player in this league and if used as a prime Lou Williams (albeit taller) on a contender I think it works. IF we can get a 15-20ish 1st rd pick along with an expiring veteran for him I think that will be a smart move. Using pick on a solid two way wing fits this roster moving forward much better.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#5 » by FriedRise » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:45 pm

Will be interesting to see what kind of lineups BD will use, but you want Coby as your shooter/scorer. So pairing him up with Lonzo or DDR where they can do most of the primary ball handling duties is the way to go (and Caruso for defense). There's a good reason why his play really picked up after the Vooch trade last year and when Zach was out, where he was able to play with a playmaking 5 and be a catch and shoot/scoring threat.

Coby's also getting a bit underrated around here. He may not be the PG answer we've been looking for (yet anyway), but we really need his scoring with the type of non-scorer bench players we have - especially if Lauri ends up being gone. In a bench role, his weak defense also won't be as costly compared to playing 31mpg defending the other team's PG superstars.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#6 » by Ben Wilson25 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:57 pm

He was a lottery pick so naturally there were high hopes but I don’t get the sentiment that he doesn’t look like a star so he’s worthless and we need to get rid of him. I think if he had the same start to his career somewhere else where we didn’t get to see his warts and growing pains nightly we’d be psyched if he was signed as a free agent on his current deal. He’s young, cheap, a good teammate and has shown extended flashes of being a good scorer. That Vinnie Johnson role is valuable on any team. Let’s see what he looks like with a defined role on a roster that makes sense. I don’t see the downside of keeping him and I think he’s still got upside to mine. This is why you invest in player development infrastructure.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#7 » by ChettheJet » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:15 pm

From being a rookie coming off the bench on a bad team he looked better at the end of the season than he did at the start. Starting at PG for his second season. trying to learn the PG position, and playing on a bad team with just about everybody injured at some point and even Zach out for COVID restrictions, a roster shake up at the deadline, he averaged 15 points and 4.5 assists. While he didn't turn into a great PG he obviously improved from the beginning of the season to the end. And remember he did that with no formal training camp and very few full team practices due to COVID.

Maybe some basketball experts are dissatisfied with him and think somebody better is just going to fall into the Bulls' lap so he needs to start packing but I don't want to quit on a #7 pick still on his rookie contract who has improved in each of his 2 years. I have never heard anyone claim he's lazy or a lousy teammate so given the chance he figures to improve his game going into his third season with a team that is leaps and bounds improved over what started last season. With a full training camp, if he's healthy, practices during the season.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#8 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:21 pm

IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
meekrab wrote:He's a small shooting guard, I predict he looks a lot better next to Caruso this season than LaVine last year.


Small in what way? Short arms?


He isn’t short but yes he is small. The wing span and the way he plays. I think Anthony Edward’s is listed at the same height but he seems much bigger and more of a prototype 2 guard. White plays small on the court which is fine but he isn’t a prototype SG. He is definition of tweener in my book.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#9 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:23 pm

Ben Wilson25 wrote:He was a lottery pick so naturally there were high hopes but I don’t get the sentiment that he doesn’t look like a star so he’s worthless and we need to get rid of him. I think if he had the same start to his career somewhere else where we didn’t get to see his warts and growing pains nightly we’d be psyched if he was signed as a free agent on his current deal. He’s young, cheap, a good teammate and has shown extended flashes of being a good scorer. That Vinnie Johnson role is valuable on any team. Let’s see what he looks like with a defined role on a roster that makes sense. I don’t see the downside of keeping him and I think he’s still got upside to mine. This is why you invest in player development infrastructure.



I think the other important thing is now on this team he can find a role, he doesn’t need to be a star to be productive. I think most everyone sees him having, Reggie Jackson/Lou Williams/ Jamal Crawford type impact. That’s good to have and honestly a great career especially in Crawford’s case. He isn’t your best player but far from worthless.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#10 » by kodo » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:26 pm

When he was our starting PG I wanted to claw my eyes out, but I'd still rather keep him as a SG off the bench than trade him right now because I think his general value is worthless. Maybe we get a 2nd rounder back.

The list of guys making 2.4+ 3s per game on at least 35% efficiency and 4 assists per game under the age of 24 are
- Coby (20)
- Tatum (22)
- Luka (21)
- Lonzo (23)

Utah could also be an argument that the 6th man gunner off the bench is more important than a true PF, which is the only position we'd trade Coby for. Clarkson is their 2nd leading scorer; Georges Niang is the first true PF on their depth chart. Their entire PF rotation is a Walmart special: Ersan Ilyasova, Juwan Morgan, Jarrel Brantley. All minimum contract guys.

Coby projects to be a bench player for a long time, but nowadays where 3P shooting is everything, having a strong bench 3 shooter might be a key role.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#11 » by sco » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:30 pm

kodo wrote:When he was our starting PG I wanted to claw my eyes out, but I'd still rather keep him as a SG off the bench than trade him right now because I think his general value is worthless. Maybe we get a 2nd rounder back.

The list of guys making 2.4+ 3s per game on at least 35% efficiency and 4 assists per game under the age of 24 are
- Coby (20)
- Tatum (22)
- Luka (21)
- Lonzo (23)

Utah could also be an argument that the 6th man gunner off the bench is more important than a true PF, which is the only position we'd trade Coby for. Clarkson is their 2nd leading scorer; Georges Niang is the first true PF on their depth chart. Their entire PF rotation is a Walmart special: Ersan Ilyasova, Juwan Morgan, Jarrel Brantley. All minimum contract guys.

I get your point, but the 4 assts were more a function of his role as "pg", and not something I'd expect to continue with him as a SG.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#12 » by meekrab » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:37 pm

IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
meekrab wrote:He's a small shooting guard, I predict he looks a lot better next to Caruso this season than LaVine last year.


Small in what way? Short arms?

He has lower shoulders, so while he's listed at the same height as Zach he plays several inches shorter.

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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#13 » by IliketheBullsNBearstoo » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:41 pm

meekrab wrote:
IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
meekrab wrote:He's a small shooting guard, I predict he looks a lot better next to Caruso this season than LaVine last year.


Small in what way? Short arms?

He has lower shoulders, so while he's listed at the same height as Zach he plays several inches shorter.

Image


Ok gotcha, we just have different opinions on what a small SG is. When I label someone a small SG I'm thinking Seth Curry.

But wait til we see the preseason pics of him after hitting the weights.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#14 » by kulaz3000 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:50 pm

So we are playing the plays taller, players bigger game here, are we? It's no wonder Kirk seemed like a 7 footer to me.
Why so serious?
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#15 » by Ben Wilson25 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:59 pm

Despite the upside I could still see him being moved next year because he doesn't neatly fit the player type AKME seems to be targeting; a long multi positional 2 way player. OTOH Caruso seems to have been brought in primarily as a gritty backcourt defender so they aren't totally against semi-specialists. Coby could be the other side of the Caruso coin. The other strike against him may also be that he's potentially the only disposable asset we have that could fetch a future FRP that unlocks our flexibility to trade our own upcoming FRPs.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#16 » by IamSam » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:04 pm

https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

Wow, I didn't know of the term "ape indices". The discussion about players height sent me down this rabbit-hole. :lol:
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#17 » by IliketheBullsNBearstoo » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:16 pm

Well at least he doesn't have a negative ape index I guess.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#18 » by coldfish » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:19 pm

Ben Wilson25 wrote:Despite the upside I could still see him being moved next year because he doesn't neatly fit the player type AKME seems to be targeting; a long multi positional 2 way player. OTOH Caruso seems to have been brought in primarily as a gritty backcourt defender so they aren't totally against semi-specialists. Coby could be the other side of the Caruso coin. The other strike against him may also be that he's potentially the only disposable asset we have that could fetch a future FRP that unlocks our flexibility to trade our own upcoming FRPs.


I wouldn't underrate Caruso's catch and shoot ability.

In general, AK seems to be going after jack of all trades / multi skilled players over specialists.

Even then, I'm not sure what Coby is a specialist at. He isn't a super efficient shooter and outside of rebounding-for-a-guard, I'm not sure he does anything else well.

IMO, Coby isn't going to be a Bull for his second contract.

Edit add, as a spot up shooter:
Coby 1.06ppp
Caruso 1.11ppp
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#19 » by 1985Bear » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:16 pm

I have him in the Ben Gordon role. Good scorer off the bench and when hot, a Great scorer. He can run fast breaks with Lonzo and is a reliable 3 point shooter. Works hard and NBA players like him. No reason to keep trying to find his replacement, he is just fine where he is for a couple more long playoff runs.


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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#20 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:11 pm

sco wrote:
kodo wrote:When he was our starting PG I wanted to claw my eyes out, but I'd still rather keep him as a SG off the bench than trade him right now because I think his general value is worthless. Maybe we get a 2nd rounder back.

The list of guys making 2.4+ 3s per game on at least 35% efficiency and 4 assists per game under the age of 24 are
- Coby (20)
- Tatum (22)
- Luka (21)
- Lonzo (23)

Utah could also be an argument that the 6th man gunner off the bench is more important than a true PF, which is the only position we'd trade Coby for. Clarkson is their 2nd leading scorer; Georges Niang is the first true PF on their depth chart. Their entire PF rotation is a Walmart special: Ersan Ilyasova, Juwan Morgan, Jarrel Brantley. All minimum contract guys.

I get your point, but the 4 assts were more a function of his role as "pg", and not something I'd expect to continue with him as a SG.


If this offense works out, he could still get 4 asst a game because he will be around more capable scorers. I know theoretically in this situation he is coming in as a microwave scorer but if the stagger the offense he should always be with at least 1-2 other scorers on the floor. His assists will come easier than last year they will be more natural in the frame of the offense (if it works out)

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