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Coby White discussion thread

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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#341 » by Madd Squabbles » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:54 pm

dougthonus wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.


I mean lots of people didn't like Coby White prior to this year. I don't think you should accuse anyone who is skeptical of him of being fair weather.

I would trade Coby + Pat + TBj (salary filler) + Portland pick for Harrison Barnes, Jerami Grant, Christian Wood, or Pascal Siakam if the other team would take take it. I'm not sure it's enough for any of those teams would do that trade though and Coby coming out like hot garbage through three games probably makes it less likely rather than more. If Coby has turned it around by the trade deadline then there may be a chance there.

Otherwise, if you're getting a lesser player than one of those guys, I'm just riding with what we have and hoping they develop. Getting someone of lower caliber doesn't really do much for us, but I think we're close enough to do a consolidate assets trade if one exists.


Detroit would be all over that trade.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#342 » by MrSparkle » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:09 pm

coldfish wrote:Relevant here: Ayo is shooting 43% on 3p on 4.3 attempts per 36.

Coby White is at 35% for his career on 7.8 per 36.

No one in their right mind would just turn the offense over to Ayo for extended periods of time every game. That said, if you did he would likely have a handful of big nights.

I really have to wonder how Coby works ahead of Ayo in the rotation. Ayo is worlds better on defense.


Well, the short answer is there's no chance Coby beats Ayo in the rotation, unless Ayo hits a massive rookie wall. The difference between shooting and defensive specialists; the latter is far less likely to have a bad day at the office.

Billy has basically kept an 8-man rotation with the 9th mystery slot open for match-ups and trials; toss-up between playing small (Troy, Coby) or big (Alize, Bradley).

Ayo and DJJ have somewhat cemented themselves in the rotation, unless they stop bringing energy, I doubt they're DNP'd. Along with Javonte, they're not high minute guys anyway, just a dependable 10-20 mpg of athletic energy - also they work with pretty much any line-ups.

When Vuc is back, it'll be interesting to see if Coby gets anything besides garbage time. Right now, micro ball has kept Bradley/Alize sitting and DJJ playing. If DJJ slides into PF minutes alongside Vuc, Coby might be competing with Matt Thomas for shots at the end of blowouts. It's probably important for him to get going in the next game or two.

On the total flip side, the Coby/Vuc PnR was looking OK in April. That might be Coby's best look. Really just getting the sense he's gonna be a pump-and-dump though. Even if he goes into a 30-pt. hot streak, I agree his defensive awareness and track record of shooting inconsistency puts him more in Lauri territory than a guy we consider extending next year.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#343 » by TheFinishSniper » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:55 pm

There is no way Bulls even propose extension to Coby White. Nor should Coby expect one if he is still on roster. I still agree on Bulls policy of not extending players on rookie deal if they are anything short of above starter level player.

This is why I was against extending Lauri for anything more at the best MLE because extending guys on rookie deal costs too much. You end up paying for potential instead production. Also paying players on guaranteed long term deals which dont get better offseason to offseason is huge red flag. That's easily dead waste money in cap space and hard to move on. For example Felicio.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#344 » by dice » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:31 am

MrSparkle wrote:
coldfish wrote:Relevant here: Ayo is shooting 43% on 3p on 4.3 attempts per 36.

Coby White is at 35% for his career on 7.8 per 36.

No one in their right mind would just turn the offense over to Ayo for extended periods of time every game. That said, if you did he would likely have a handful of big nights.

I really have to wonder how Coby works ahead of Ayo in the rotation. Ayo is worlds better on defense.


Well, the short answer is there's no chance Coby beats Ayo in the rotation, unless Ayo hits a massive rookie wall. The difference between shooting and defensive specialists; the latter is far less likely to have a bad day at the office.

i agree with most of what you said, but let's not pretend that ayo has been tearing it up. his hustle makes him easy to root for and he is clearly not intimidated by the competition, but he's not good enough defensively to be a defensive specialist and the jury is obviously still out on his offensive ability. i do think that coby will have to take ayo's minutes rather than the other way around
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#345 » by PaKii94 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 am

This was the guy bulls gave #2 touches to last year :lol: :x :oops: :banghead:
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#346 » by MrSparkle » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:36 am

PaKii94 wrote:This was the guy bulls gave #2 touches to last year :lol: :x :oops: :banghead:


Well that's what bad teams with top-10 picks tend to do.

That considered, I thought he was alright until that trade deadline came by and he seemed to sink to the pits. We were 14-16 after 30 games, and that was with good old Lauri playing in less than half of those (mostly losses when Lauri played, btw). Coby was scoring and spacing the floor pretty reliably; Zach and Thad were playing out their mind. There wasn't much more help on that roster. He declined hard when he went to the bench.

I had zero problems with feeding Coby, Wendell the ball and big minutes, seeing what they could (and mostly couldn't) do. It was very irritating waiting many years to conclude that Snell, Valentine and Lauri actually sucked.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#347 » by Bulls2021 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:54 am

ChettheJet wrote:Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

Looks like we found Coby's realgm account.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#348 » by ChiCitySPORTS#1 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:25 am

Coby is the best creator and scorer off the bench. We need him to figure it out. Last year Coby off the bench would be insane.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#349 » by pipfan » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:14 am

This is why I want to add a real 4 (Grant or Barnes are perfect fits)
In the rotation, they can play with bench units some, to add scoring. White would be part of those deals
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#350 » by fleet » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:21 am

Game shape is one thing. Coby actually looks 5-10 lbs overweight. It could be that I just have never seen him surrounded on such a lean and mean team before? :dontknow: The word the comes to mind as far as the visual impression is sluggish.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#351 » by fleet » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:33 am

dice wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
coldfish wrote:Relevant here: Ayo is shooting 43% on 3p on 4.3 attempts per 36.

Coby White is at 35% for his career on 7.8 per 36.

No one in their right mind would just turn the offense over to Ayo for extended periods of time every game. That said, if you did he would likely have a handful of big nights.

I really have to wonder how Coby works ahead of Ayo in the rotation. Ayo is worlds better on defense.


Well, the short answer is there's no chance Coby beats Ayo in the rotation, unless Ayo hits a massive rookie wall. The difference between shooting and defensive specialists; the latter is far less likely to have a bad day at the office.

i agree with most of what you said, but let's not pretend that ayo has been tearing it up. his hustle makes him easy to root for and he is clearly not intimidated by the competition, but he's not good enough defensively to be a defensive specialist and the jury is obviously still out on his offensive ability. i do think that coby will have to take ayo's minutes rather than the other way around

The following is post of data-less observation, fwiw.

If Vuc never came back, there could become more of a premium on Coby shooting threes. But Coby’s defense is so poor that any team gains will likely wiped out, and Vuc is coming back.

Ayo is a gamer, he has the eye of the tiger. Never really saw that quality from Coby. The ‘it’ factor is real with him. What you predict is possible in a generic situation, for a different ‘veteran’ but the way things are atm, it would surprise me. Depends more on Ayo than Coby. If Ayo maintains the poise and confidence. Brushed on this before, but Ayo is a better fit with the others imo, which should alow him to maintain. I’m actually thinking Ayo more likely can gain minutes the way he plays with just a little more execution, which can come for some rookies.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#352 » by Rowland Garrett » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:38 am

I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#353 » by Jvaughn » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:54 pm

DuckIII wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Welp, still think you play him in small doses. Until we lose a game, I don’t see the problem.


You mean like the Portland game that already happened?

If his negative impact had been completely meaningless all 3 games I don’t think anyone would care all that much. But we lost one and almost lost another.

Him playing right now matters. In a bad way.


Yep, came here to post this. I'm not blaming the whole Portland game on him, but we lost momentum and struggled to score when he was in the court. And coincidentally Portland started clawing back then. He's already contributing to losses and he's not even playing long minutes. If he comes back out and looks like he's been looking, he's unplayable. He'll have to get his rythym back in the G-league. As it stands, we're contenders, but the top of the East is much tougher right now, and we can't afford to lose ground.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#354 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:48 pm

Rowland Garrett wrote:I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#355 » by Jcool0 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:06 pm

coldfish wrote:
Rowland Garrett wrote:I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.


Ive seen things go from Vuc needs to be traded and start Bradley to Vuc is our most important player. Ive also seen people talking about how badly the Bulls need White to now the Bulls need to send him to the G league. When Zach would miss a few shots people were wanting him to have surgery or have BD bench him. This board has most definitely not been "ecstatic" this year. Its more chicken little's.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#356 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:16 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
Rowland Garrett wrote:I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.


Ive seen things go from Vuc needs to be traded and start Bradley to Vuc is our most important player. Ive also seen people talking about how badly the Bulls need White to now the Bulls need to send him to the G league. When Zach would miss a few shots people were wanting him to have surgery or have BD bench him. This board has most definitely not been "ecstatic" this year. Its more chicken little's.


Nah.

The homers on this board just hate it when people discuss what is going on in the present.

Vuc was playing terrible at points early on. Realistically, I can't say that Chicago has missed Vucevic that much because he really was hurting the team on offense frequently. And I'm a huge Vucevic fan, supported the trade and think he will be a long term asset.

Zach did have a few bad games after he had his hand wrapped.

The homers on this board just project too much effectively automatically creating strawman arguments. For the most part, these homers have been fantastically wrong over the past year as they were the ones defending Lauri, Wendell, etc as AK was figuring out how to dump them. They are functionally broken clocks saying "everything is fine" all of the time and when it turns out they are right, they pat themselves on the back despite their terrible track record.

Side note: The negative nancies (and we know who they are) who think everything is terrible no matter what, have been even MORE wrong.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#357 » by DuckIII » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:38 pm

Rowland Garrett wrote:I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


I’m pretty confident that except for a couple of holdouts who hate everything (and therefore more or less aren’t posting this season) everyone is very happy with AKME.

We’re talking about one minor issue: how best to bring back from injury one bench player of collateral significance.

The NBA equivalent of rich people problems. Literally the solution being discussed is to just not play him for awhile until he’s playing better. That’s a touch of weed eating, not landscaping the whole of Central Park.

And some of that conversation is naturally going to include a discussion of, tactically, whether playing him helps or hurts his trade value. But that’s not the same thing as saying he must be traded (which I don’t see anyone saying but maybe I missed it).
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#358 » by sco » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:58 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Rowland Garrett wrote:I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


I’m pretty confident that except for a couple of holdouts who hate everything (and therefore more or less aren’t posting this season) everyone is very happy with AKME.

We’re talking about one minor issue: how best to bring back from injury one bench player of collateral significance.

The NBA equivalent of rich people problems. Literally the solution being discussed is to just not play him for awhile until he’s playing better. That’s a touch of weed eating, not landscaping the whole of Central Park.

And some of that conversation is naturally going to include a discussion of, tactically, whether playing him helps or hurts his trade value. But that’s not the same thing as saying he must be traded (which I don’t see anyone saying but maybe I missed it).

Well said!

The friction with Coby is between what his is now. A guy whose shot is way off (which is his main value), who is working himself back from an injury that kept him out for a very important stretch of time.

The only baffling part to me is given how obviously far from his peak game he is, why not give him a long stint to work on his conditioning and shooting in the g-league? The only thing that makes some partial sense is that they wanted him to experience his role for a few games to understand what he needs to work on.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#359 » by Jcool0 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:01 pm

coldfish wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.


Ive seen things go from Vuc needs to be traded and start Bradley to Vuc is our most important player. Ive also seen people talking about how badly the Bulls need White to now the Bulls need to send him to the G league. When Zach would miss a few shots people were wanting him to have surgery or have BD bench him. This board has most definitely not been "ecstatic" this year. Its more chicken little's.


Nah.

The homers on this board just hate it when people discuss what is going on in the present.

Vuc was playing terrible at points early on. Realistically, I can't say that Chicago has missed Vucevic that much because he really was hurting the team on offense frequently. And I'm a huge Vucevic fan, supported the trade and think he will be a long term asset.

Zach did have a few bad games after he had his hand wrapped.

The homers on this board just project too much effectively automatically creating strawman arguments. For the most part, these homers have been fantastically wrong over the past year as they were the ones defending Lauri, Wendell, etc as AK was figuring out how to dump them. They are functionally broken clocks saying "everything is fine" all of the time and when it turns out they are right, they pat themselves on the back despite their terrible track record.

Side note: The negative nancies (and we know who they are) who think everything is terrible no matter what, have been even MORE wrong.


IDK if i would call the people who wanted Vuc benched and traded homers. He was not playing terrible. He was shooting terrible. Basketball is more then just putting the ball in the bucket, as you can see with Caruso Lavine was not playing bad for a few games. he has scored 25+ points in pretty much every game this year. People just need to stop living play to play. He is an MVP candidate for a reason. You could also make a case for Lauri and Wendell last year. Sure it got to a point you needed to move on. But its not like it was all projection or hope with them. WCJ is already showing in Orlando what most Bulls fans projected him to be. But even at that projection Vuc is better. So it was a good trade to make. It would be much better if fans could kind of have a smarter take on things but being a fan is emotional so i cant say i 100% blame them for being that way. Just is what it is.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#360 » by Jvaughn » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:30 pm

Rowland Garrett wrote:I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:



I trust AKME and BD as well. Love what they've done so far. And we've seen that they've traded away basically everyone from the previous regime. The only people left are Zach and Coby.

As of now, the only thing they can do is try to get Coby to the point where he gets back into some sort of rythym. I fully expect them to trade him away for a more immediate team need once that happens.

As it's been stated multiple times, Coby at his best is a microwave scorer, which is an important thing to have, but Ayo/Caruso bring so much more to the team then just streaky shooting. They literally beat out Coby in every other facet of basketball. I don't see where he finds minutes, without taking away from Caruso/Ayo minutes. In the end I trust our FO and coaching to handle this correctly.
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