Image ImageImage Image

Defense... is this issue overblown?

Moderators: HomoSapien, GimmeDat, Michael Jackson, Payt10, dougthonus, kulaz3000, Tommy Udo 6 , Ice Man, DASMACKDOWN, fleet, coldfish, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper

GoBlue72391
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,842
And1: 2,201
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#121 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat Oct 9, 2021 4:13 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:You think it's good now? Just wait until Patrick Williams comes back ......

Are we still pretending like he's some kind of stopper/defensive prodigy? If he can give us half the defense Green has so far I will be pleasantly surprised.
gardenofsound
Starter
Posts: 2,165
And1: 1,345
Joined: Aug 25, 2010
   

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#122 » by gardenofsound » Sat Oct 9, 2021 4:58 pm

Yeah, honestly don't crown PW yet. All he's shown so far is potential/flashes and that he can say the right things.

He isn't a good defender yet. The hope is that he really puts it together on that end and can be a true 3/D player this year with flashes of playmaking and scoring.
NecessaryEvil
General Manager
Posts: 7,768
And1: 5,651
Joined: Jun 12, 2014
 

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#123 » by NecessaryEvil » Sat Oct 9, 2021 5:28 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:You think it's good now? Just wait until Patrick Williams comes back ......

Are we still pretending like he's some kind of stopper/defensive prodigy? If he can give us half the defense Green has so far I will be pleasantly surprised.


:lol:

So, you don't believe Patrick Williams is a good defensive player?





I guess you must of forgotten how disruptive this kid was as a 19 year old last season. This guy is going to be absolutely swarming within this defense.
User avatar
TyrusRose2425
Head Coach
Posts: 6,185
And1: 4,070
Joined: May 23, 2008
     

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#124 » by TyrusRose2425 » Sat Oct 9, 2021 5:48 pm

Overall we knew what we were doing though. It’s not like we were targeting a bunch of PF’s, struck out, and became forced to roll with this. I doubt AK and Donovan built this knowing we would be huge defensive liabilities. I’m pretty sure we will be fine, worst case.
GoBlue72391
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,842
And1: 2,201
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#125 » by GoBlue72391 » Sat Oct 9, 2021 6:42 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:You think it's good now? Just wait until Patrick Williams comes back ......

Are we still pretending like he's some kind of stopper/defensive prodigy? If he can give us half the defense Green has so far I will be pleasantly surprised.


:lol:

So, you don't believe Patrick Williams is a good defensive player?





I guess you must of forgotten how disruptive this kid was as a 19 year old last season. This guy is going to be absolutely swarming within this defense.

No, I don't. I think he's roughly an average to slightly above-average defender with the potential to be a very good defender down the line. And I don't think that is in any way a controversial opinion.
User avatar
DASMACKDOWN
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 26,391
And1: 11,806
Joined: Nov 01, 2001
Location: Cookin' with Derrick Rose

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#126 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sat Oct 9, 2021 7:55 pm

I sort of feel we are arguing for Keith Bogans over Korver here.

Don't over analyze it. Patrick Williams is the answer.
User avatar
Salo23
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,478
And1: 326
Joined: Jul 09, 2001

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#127 » by Salo23 » Sat Oct 9, 2021 8:18 pm

TyrusRose2425 wrote:Overall we knew what we were doing though. It’s not like we were targeting a bunch of PF’s, struck out, and became forced to roll with this. I doubt AK and Donovan built this knowing we would be huge defensive liabilities. I’m pretty sure we will be fine, worst case.

For the most part, yes. However we did target both Milsap and Aldridge, and lost out on both to the Nets.

As a result the Nets had to waive Alize Johnson which so far looks like a great pickup for us anyway, two years non-guaranteed for minimum salary.
We are missing a lot of layups right now as a team, and that is on me... It’s my job to make sure we’re ready to make our layups." - Thibodeau.
User avatar
TyrusRose2425
Head Coach
Posts: 6,185
And1: 4,070
Joined: May 23, 2008
     

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#128 » by TyrusRose2425 » Sat Oct 9, 2021 9:26 pm

Salo23 wrote:
TyrusRose2425 wrote:Overall we knew what we were doing though. It’s not like we were targeting a bunch of PF’s, struck out, and became forced to roll with this. I doubt AK and Donovan built this knowing we would be huge defensive liabilities. I’m pretty sure we will be fine, worst case.

For the most part, yes. However we did target both Milsap and Aldridge, and lost out on both to the Nets.

As a result the Nets had to waive Alize Johnson which so far looks like a great pickup for us anyway, two years non-guaranteed for minimum salary.

I think Aldridge was for backup C spot and Millsap maybe as well. At best it was as a backup and like you said we got Alize Johnson instead. Point being, we had every intention of being undersized at the 4 or we would have actually attempted to keep Theis and wouldn't have signed both Lonzo and DeRozan to big deals on top of Caruso being MLE.
NecessaryEvil
General Manager
Posts: 7,768
And1: 5,651
Joined: Jun 12, 2014
 

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#129 » by NecessaryEvil » Sat Oct 9, 2021 10:25 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:Are we still pretending like he's some kind of stopper/defensive prodigy? If he can give us half the defense Green has so far I will be pleasantly surprised.


:lol:

So, you don't believe Patrick Williams is a good defensive player?





I guess you must of forgotten how disruptive this kid was as a 19 year old last season. This guy is going to be absolutely swarming within this defense.

No, I don't. I think he's roughly an average to slightly above-average defender with the potential to be a very good defender down the line. And I don't think that is in any way a controversial opinion.



cool
User avatar
tedwilliams1999
Veteran
Posts: 2,566
And1: 1,756
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
     

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#130 » by tedwilliams1999 » Sat Oct 9, 2021 10:48 pm

After thinking about it a bit, I don't think the defensive issues are overblown - it's up to the players to prove the narrative wrong. I like that the perimeter guys have taken on the challenge, knowing each game that they'll be a bit undersized. Playing with a chip on your shoulder is the exact mentality you need to have to become an average to good defensive team - it entirely explains how the Knicks became elite defensive without any specific individual defensive specialists. I hope the frenetic energy is still there when we're playing against teams that are less turnover prone - if so I do think we'll be average or better on that end of the court. If, on the other hand, we become discouraged with a lack of turnovers and blown coverages - there were definitely several of these over the past few games - then I could see the media pundits being right more often than not this season.

The individual personnel we have looks bad on paper, but I think all of us would agree that Vuc and Lavine at this point are more than capable of being perfectly average defenders. Coby and Derozan project to be terribly bad, but it's still entirely possible that we can build an above average defense in spite of them - if anyone can do it, it'll be Donovan.

Patrick Williams is definitely a potential trump card that could raise the defensive ceiling of the team. I also didn't think he was particularly impressive defensively last year, and most of that highlight clip above is him landing in the right place at the right time. More often than not, he was invisible. Hopefully this is mostly from a lack of conditioning and experience, because if he does max out his potential defensively we're going to be a problem.
GoBlue72391
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,842
And1: 2,201
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#131 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:55 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
:lol:

So, you don't believe Patrick Williams is a good defensive player?





I guess you must of forgotten how disruptive this kid was as a 19 year old last season. This guy is going to be absolutely swarming within this defense.

No, I don't. I think he's roughly an average to slightly above-average defender with the potential to be a very good defender down the line. And I don't think that is in any way a controversial opinion.



cool

Excellent rebuttal.
NecessaryEvil
General Manager
Posts: 7,768
And1: 5,651
Joined: Jun 12, 2014
 

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#132 » by NecessaryEvil » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:47 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:No, I don't. I think he's roughly an average to slightly above-average defender with the potential to be a very good defender down the line. And I don't think that is in any way a controversial opinion.



cool

Excellent rebuttal.


Thank you sir 8-)

Enjoy todays game
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 10,647
And1: 6,640
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#133 » by Jcool0 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:05 pm

It was that game against Lebron i think where Williams did okay and everyone just kind of assumed he was going to be the Bulls best defender. But he would get burned a lot on the defensive end. I kept thinking where was this great defender everyone keeps talking about? Still has a ways to go.
NecessaryEvil
General Manager
Posts: 7,768
And1: 5,651
Joined: Jun 12, 2014
 

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#134 » by NecessaryEvil » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:41 pm

Jcool0 wrote:It was that game against Lebron i think where Williams did okay and everyone just kind of assumed he was going to be the Bulls best defender. But he would get burned a lot on the defensive end. I kept thinking where was this great defender everyone keeps talking about? Still has a ways to go.



He was 19, with no training camp and a bench player in college.

I think expecations are too high. Give that kid some time. He'll be absolutely fine.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 18,802
And1: 5,669
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#135 » by sco » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:You think it's good now? Just wait until Patrick Williams comes back ......

Are we still pretending like he's some kind of stopper/defensive prodigy? If he can give us half the defense Green has so far I will be pleasantly surprised.


:lol:

So, you don't believe Patrick Williams is a good defensive player?





I guess you must of forgotten how disruptive this kid was as a 19 year old last season. This guy is going to be absolutely swarming within this defense.

So Pat played 5 good minutes of defense all season? :wink:
:clap:
NecessaryEvil
General Manager
Posts: 7,768
And1: 5,651
Joined: Jun 12, 2014
 

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#136 » by NecessaryEvil » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:02 pm

sco wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:Are we still pretending like he's some kind of stopper/defensive prodigy? If he can give us half the defense Green has so far I will be pleasantly surprised.


:lol:

So, you don't believe Patrick Williams is a good defensive player?





I guess you must of forgotten how disruptive this kid was as a 19 year old last season. This guy is going to be absolutely swarming within this defense.

So Pat played 5 good minutes of defense all season? :wink:



Image
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,546
And1: 531
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#137 » by TeamMan » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:55 am

TeamMan wrote:
BullChit wrote:
TeamMan wrote:...Pelicans had 18 TOs, but 14 were Bulls steals.

This could be a fun stat to keep track of as the season goes on...


I nominate you to keep track of it brother.....

OK - will see how it looks by the end of preseason...

Opponent TOs: 38
Bulls Steals: 27
Percentage: 71%


Easy stat to follow...

Cavs game 2 update...

Opponent TOs: 38+16=54
Bulls Steals: 27+10=37
Percentage: 69%
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 54,441
And1: 26,690
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#138 » by coldfish » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:46 am

Bulls had a D rating under 100 last night, which is still elite. The reason the game was close was bad offense by Chicago.
RSP83
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,230
And1: 2,219
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
       

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#139 » by RSP83 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:13 pm

DELETED. Wrong thread.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 51,265
And1: 11,274
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#140 » by dougthonus » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:26 pm

Worth noting Williams had a positive DRPM and a near neutral (slightly negative) defensive RAPTOR. I feel like as a rookie often assigned to the opposing teams best player that's actually quite good. I'd say he still projects out as a really good defender in the long run.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter

Return to Chicago Bulls