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Defense... is this issue overblown?

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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#61 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Sep 2, 2021 10:34 pm

gardenofsound wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Regarding Wendell, here's a reminder of the centers that murdered us this year:

Thomas Bryant - 28 points on 10/11 shooting
Richaun Holmes - 24 points on 10/11 shooting
Christian Wood - 30 points on 11/16 shooting
Daniel Theis - 19 points on 8/12 shooting
Enes Kanter - 22 points on 9/13 shooting
Nikola Vucevic - 43 points and 19 rebounds
Joel Embiid - 50 points and 17 rebounds
Marvin Bagley - 26 points and 11 rebounds
DeAndre Ayton - 22 points on 10/17 shooting
Nikola Jokic - 39 points and 14 rebounds 17/28 from the field
Tony Bradley - 14 points on 7/7 shooting in 22 minutes.
Dwight Howard - 18 and 12 on 8/12 shooting in 24 minutes (same game as Bradley)
Moses Brown - 20 points and 16 rebounds
Jakob Poeltl - 20 points and 16 on 9/11 shooting
Nikola Jokic - 34, 15, and 9 on 14/23 shooting
Rudy Gobert - 21 points, 10 rebounds, 9 blocks, 9/11 shooting
Jarrett Allen - 19 points on 9/12 shooting



Funny that 3 guys on that list end up being Carter replacements. Was that a career game for Vuc? Prior to the Vuc trade it was painful watching our interior D. Of our #7 pics WCJ was my least favorite at the time and still today. Not saying he can’t find a serviceable groove with the Magic or somewhere else but I always hated that pick personally.


I disliked all of them, but was honestly so unsure of what we were going to get in the Butler trade that I had no specific expectations on the 2017 #7.

But Carter... yeah... I wanted MPJ once he dropped to (and past 7).
Coby... I wanted Reddish.


I don’t mind Coby really, but I too would prefer Reddish. I get way MPJ wasn’t chosen it was super high risk, luck worked out in his case but the medical were apparently ugly. Maybe AK purposely ruined his medicals so he would drop to Denver and be a steal. I am in no way seriously suggesting that.

I didn’t like WCJ face, head, game or fake tough guy attitude. I hated his foot speed and in the end of his tenure with the Bulls felt horrible for him watching him play and just seeing how destroyed his confidence was. I can usually shine a turd up in my mind a little, I just never saw anything I liked about WCJ. I also liked Mo Bamba better but as we can tell that was just as poor of a choice. I always liked SGA and part of that is so superficial in that I liked his name. Personally I think at 7 I would have gone with Sexton. I guess I’m like everyone else and I don’t get excited about big men anymore unless they are Zion.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#62 » by erlim » Fri Sep 3, 2021 9:41 am

I hope we just have an occam’s razor situation and our guys with defensively average to below average reputations are able to just become a bit more applied and efficient on the defensive side of the ball now that they are supported by talented teammates don’t have to just be workaholic magicians to make the offense function.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#63 » by RebuildaBulls » Fri Sep 3, 2021 11:15 pm

Defense isnt as big as a deal as it used to be because of the rules. If Bulls can stick around where they are or improve some its enough only if their offense clicks. Would say though they needed Milsap, they need another big body who kicks ass
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#64 » by DWhiteMamba » Sat Sep 4, 2021 8:59 am

I'm more worried about your spacing then your D
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#65 » by coldfish » Sat Sep 4, 2021 9:26 am

DWhiteMamba wrote:I'm more worried about your spacing then your D


Lavine, Caruso, Ball, Williams, Vucevic and White are all average to good 3p shooters. That's almost all of the rotation players. The only bad shooters in the rotation will be DDR and some of the deep bench guys like Bradley, Brown Jr., Jones Jr., etc.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#66 » by DWhiteMamba » Sat Sep 4, 2021 9:49 am

It's not about adding up guys who can hit a 3; it's about asking how many will be on the court at any given time, and how many of them can hit a shot if they're not WIIDDE open. Vuc and Ball can only hit wide open 3s; in Ball's case because he can't create separation and has a low release on his weird form. So for them to GET open, there has to be something creating those overlaps, otherwise they're not as helpful. Because your starting line-up will have DDR in it, there's one guy they can always sag off. The only guy who is a wetter from 3 in the starters is Lavine. Williams is a big question mark about how well he can shoot still. DDR also occupies the same space Vuc uses, which is why Thad couldn't start last year. If you were starting Coby White and DDR was 6th man I'd feel alot better about your spacing.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#67 » by Dez » Sat Sep 4, 2021 10:11 am

DWhiteMamba wrote:It's not about adding up guys who can hit a 3; it's about asking how many will be on the court at any given time, and how many of them can hit a shot if they're not WIIDDE open. Vuc and Ball can only hit wide open 3s; in Ball's case because he can't create separation and has a low release on his weird form. So for them to GET open, there has to be something creating those overlaps, otherwise they're not as helpful. Because your starting line-up will have DDR in it, there's one guy they can always sag off. The only guy who is a wetter from 3 in the starters is Lavine. Williams is a big question mark about how well he can shoot still. DDR also occupies the same space Vuc uses, which is why Thad couldn't start last year. If you were starting Coby White and DDR was 6th man I'd feel alot better about your spacing.


Our spacing is fine, that's not an issue in the least.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#68 » by Grodoboldo » Sat Sep 4, 2021 11:27 pm

This thread by Kris (to which both Danny and the other guy responded afterwards) is very good.

Read on Twitter


@klahoops: I’ve been following @DannyLeroux for years and respect his work a lot, so it pains me to have to make this thread, but the RealGM over/under podcast with @AmericanNumbers about the Bulls had some misinformation that needs to be corrected. Going quote by quote here:

The whole thread can be found in this link: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1434263066653253632.html

Spoiler:
I’ve been following @DannyLeroux for years and respect his work a lot, so it pains me to have to make this thread, but the RealGM over/under podcast with @AmericanNumbers about the Bulls had some misinformation that needs to be corrected. Going quote by quote here:
1. “The Bulls do not have much in the way of defensive talent, and the talent they have isn’t going to play.” Chicago only has 2 detrimental defenders: DeMar DeRozan and Coby White, and the latter was playing different roles defensively last year (starting POA vs bench help).
Zach LaVine rated as slightly below average (44th percentile D-EPM) despite playing most his minutes with Coby. He had a positive net rating when playing with any of Thad, Theis, Brown, Temple, Sato. He’s not a plus defender yet (or ever?) but he’s no longer an active detriment.
Vucevic finished 45th percentile and has always been underrated as an interior defender, even if he offers little rim protection. He’s not a sieve. The rest: Caruso, Ball, Williams, Brown, Bradley, Jones, and Green all project as good to elite (in Caruso’s case) defenders.
In the current projected rotation, then, only one “bad” defender is going to be consistently getting 20+ mins a night: DeRozan. It’s fair to be concerned about the defense, but the idea that team does not have good defenders and/or they won’t be playing much is misleading.
2. “Should DeMar ever get touches in the last 2 mins? No. There’s no justification for having the ball in DeMar DeRozan’s hands at the end of the game.” The guest said this one, and I’d like to offer some justification. Because it’s quite the opposite.
DeRozan was the 2nd most efficient PnR scorer (1.104 PPP) in the entire league this year, behind Kawhi (1.149 PPP). He’s also been the #1 most efficient isolation scorer in the league the last two years. He’s also 90th percentile in TOV% and 99th in shooting fouls drawn.
One of the Bulls’ biggest weaknesses last season was late-game turnovers, poor clutch efficiency, and failure to draw fouls, with LaVine the only viable option. Not only is DeMar the player on the Bulls who should get lots of touches in the clutch, he should be for most teams.
3. “Functionally there is no offensive value in having DeMar DeRozan on the court.” Another one from the guest. Here we go: DeMar was 25th in the league in VORP, 20th in WS, 26th in WS/48, 11th in OWS, 23rd in PER, with a 59.1 TS% despite taking only 1.2 3s per game.
Maybe they meant Bulls-specific, though? The Spurs had the 24th best 3-pt% shooting as a team last year. Bulls were 13th. DeMar has more space to operate in PnR and better partners for it than ever before in his career. Other Bulls starters 3-pt%: 37.8, 41.9, 39.1, 40.0.
The Bulls also specifically need a reliable half-court creator. DeMar is 96th percentile is AST:USG, has a 32 AST%, a .478 FTr, and a 3.5 AST/TOV ratio. The idea that this player, who is elite at the Bulls’ biggest weaknesses, has no offensive value is just silly.
This ended up being a fairly productive conversation/debate, and I appreciate Danny and Arturo for engaging with the points I laid out.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#69 » by dice » Sun Sep 5, 2021 12:02 am

when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#70 » by sco » Sun Sep 5, 2021 1:25 pm

dice wrote:when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?

I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#71 » by Almost Retired » Sun Sep 5, 2021 1:48 pm

sco wrote:
dice wrote:when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?

I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.


Indeed. And at POA, which was one of our biggest defensive problems last year, we added Lonzo and Caruso. Both are long for the position. Zach has decent height. Our bench wings are long enough and they have defensive tenacity. We're OK at the "5". We could use a tall "4" to round out the rotation. That's it. We have youth. We have veterans. We have length. We have mostly 2 way players now. Our collective BBIQ probably doubled over this past terrific off season. We might be height challenged covering 2 guys...Durant and Giannis. Otherwise, we're fine.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#72 » by dabig3 » Sun Sep 5, 2021 3:44 pm

Almost Retired wrote:
sco wrote:
dice wrote:when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?

I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.


Indeed. And at POA, which was one of our biggest defensive problems last year, we added Lonzo and Caruso. Both are long for the position. Zach has decent height. Our bench wings are long enough and they have defensive tenacity. We're OK at the "5". We could use a tall "4" to round out the rotation. That's it. We have youth. We have veterans. We have length. We have mostly 2 way players now. Our collective BBIQ probably doubled over this past terrific off season. We might be height challenged covering 2 guys...Durant and Giannis. Otherwise, we're fine.


I really hope Ayo gets some decent burn this season with a focus, for now, on defense. A 6'5 guard with a 6'10 wingspan and high bbiq on the perimeter will be fun.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#73 » by sco » Sun Sep 5, 2021 5:45 pm

dabig3 wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:
sco wrote:I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.


Indeed. And at POA, which was one of our biggest defensive problems last year, we added Lonzo and Caruso. Both are long for the position. Zach has decent height. Our bench wings are long enough and they have defensive tenacity. We're OK at the "5". We could use a tall "4" to round out the rotation. That's it. We have youth. We have veterans. We have length. We have mostly 2 way players now. Our collective BBIQ probably doubled over this past terrific off season. We might be height challenged covering 2 guys...Durant and Giannis. Otherwise, we're fine.


I really hope Ayo gets some decent burn this season with a focus, for now, on defense. A 6'5 guard with a 6'10 wingspan and high bbiq on the perimeter will be fun.

I don't. Not that I don't think he has potential, but if Ayo plays much, if at all, it means we are dealing with injuries. I do hope he gets a lot of burn in g-league to work on his shooting. Right now, IMO, he brings nothing that TBJ doesn't already bring, but I'll be optimistic he can develop into a decent offensive player.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#74 » by dabig3 » Sun Sep 5, 2021 6:13 pm

sco wrote:
dabig3 wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:
Indeed. And at POA, which was one of our biggest defensive problems last year, we added Lonzo and Caruso. Both are long for the position. Zach has decent height. Our bench wings are long enough and they have defensive tenacity. We're OK at the "5". We could use a tall "4" to round out the rotation. That's it. We have youth. We have veterans. We have length. We have mostly 2 way players now. Our collective BBIQ probably doubled over this past terrific off season. We might be height challenged covering 2 guys...Durant and Giannis. Otherwise, we're fine.


I really hope Ayo gets some decent burn this season with a focus, for now, on defense. A 6'5 guard with a 6'10 wingspan and high bbiq on the perimeter will be fun.

I don't. Not that I don't think he has potential, but if Ayo plays much, if at all, it means we are dealing with injuries. I do hope he gets a lot of burn in g-league to work on his shooting. Right now, IMO, he brings nothing that TBJ doesn't already bring, but I'll be optimistic he can develop into a decent offensive player.


Well Coby is out for little bit of time so we're bound to see some Ayo for a little at the start. He'll be in the rotation somewhere.

And speaking of guys like Coby and TBJ - I'm not sure if these guys will even be on the team after the trade deadline, and that's regardless of Ayo's development. It's why I'd like to see them try to play Ayo in the back end of the rotation throughout the year.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#75 » by sco » Sun Sep 5, 2021 6:55 pm

dabig3 wrote:
sco wrote:
dabig3 wrote:
I really hope Ayo gets some decent burn this season with a focus, for now, on defense. A 6'5 guard with a 6'10 wingspan and high bbiq on the perimeter will be fun.

I don't. Not that I don't think he has potential, but if Ayo plays much, if at all, it means we are dealing with injuries. I do hope he gets a lot of burn in g-league to work on his shooting. Right now, IMO, he brings nothing that TBJ doesn't already bring, but I'll be optimistic he can develop into a decent offensive player.


Well Coby is out for little bit of time so we're bound to see some Ayo for a little at the start. He'll be in the rotation somewhere.

And speaking of guys like Coby and TBJ - I'm not sure if these guys will even be on the team after the trade deadline, and that's regardless of Ayo's development. It's why I'd like to see them try to play Ayo in the back end of the rotation throughout the year.

I'm a lot higher on TBJ...think he's a keeper.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#76 » by Grodoboldo » Tue Sep 7, 2021 12:02 pm

A play by play analysis on DDR against the Nuggets on 01/29/21, including both offense and defense.
I tried aggregating the whole thread on a single link using thread reader, but the link didn't support the format used in the videos, so I'll just post the first tweet on the thread.

Read on Twitter


@McDougiee1: Gonna start a thread, looking at DeMar DeRozan against the Nuggets (1/29/21). Things I'm looking for:
How he creates space off the dribble
How he is defensively
What happens when he doesn't have the ball
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#77 » by bueller » Wed Sep 8, 2021 5:42 pm

We arguably have up to 10 above average defenders.

Lonzo Ball
Patrick Williams
Alex Caruso
Javonte Green
Troy Brown Jr.
Derrick Jones Jr.
Tony Bradley
Ayo Dosunmu
Stanley Johnson
Alize Johnson
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#78 » by kodo » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:23 pm

sco wrote:
dice wrote:when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?

I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.

I think you're right.
Looking up average player height by position from 2019/20,

PG: 6' 2.5" (Lonzo 6' 6" from NBA.com, I thought he was 6' 4")
SG: 6' 4.4" (Lavine 6' 5")
SF: 6' 6.4" (Derozan 6' 6")
PF: 6' 8.2" (Williams 6' 7")
C: 6' 10.6" (Vucevic 6' 11")

We're 1" short on PF, average at SF, and slightly above average elsewhere. And to do the Tyrus thing, I thought Williams looked 6' 8" this summer. But I don't think height matters anywhere other than Center, personally. I'll take Draymond on defense or Zion on offense at PF any day.

The PF slot has been shrinking rapidly, in 2015 the average PF was 6' 9" 242 lbs. In 19/20 it was 6' 8.2" 231 lbs. Center OTOH has gone down only 0.3" in that time span.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#79 » by coldfish » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:36 pm

kodo wrote:
sco wrote:
dice wrote:when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?

I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.

I think you're right.
Looking up average player height by position from 2019/20,

PG: 6' 2.5" (Lonzo 6' 6" from NBA.com, I thought he was 6' 4")
SG: 6' 4.4" (Lavine 6' 5")
SF: 6' 6.4" (Derozan 6' 6")
PF: 6' 8.2" (Williams 6' 7")
C: 6' 10.6" (Vucevic 6' 11")

We're 1" short on PF, average at SF, and slightly above average elsewhere. And to do the Tyrus thing, I thought Williams looked 6' 8" this summer. But I don't think height matters anywhere other than Center, personally. I'll take Draymond on defense or Zion on offense at PF any day.

The PF slot has been shrinking rapidly, in 2015 the average PF was 6' 9" 242 lbs. In 19/20 it was 6' 8.2" 231 lbs. Center OTOH has gone down only 0.3" in that time span.


Two things I don't understand:
- Bulls are small
- Bulls have shooting issues

Most of this revolves around one player. Demar for shooting and Pat for height. Height in particular, I suspect the Bulls are going to consistently have a much bigger team out there than they have in the past.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#80 » by FriedRise » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:55 pm

This is an interesting roster make-up for sure. We have our Big 3 who we're going to depend on heavily on the offensive end. But outside of them (and Coby), we have all these 6'6 - 6'8 athletic long defenders. It's quite a 180 from the past few seasons where we were prioritizing offense (shooting) over defense. Both Vooch and Bradley are drop bigs, but we should be able to switch everywhere else.

When all of Zach, DDR, and Vooch are on the floor, the defense can get pretty rough, but that's only gonna be a small portion of the game. For the most part when 1-2 of them are sitting, we're gonna have guys whose bread and butter is defense.

We should be a really good perimeter defensive team with the roster we have, and if we can be mostly average inside, this should end up being an above average defensive team.

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