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Defense... is this issue overblown?

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ShootersShoot
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#81 » by ShootersShoot » Wed Sep 8, 2021 7:09 pm

DWhiteMamba wrote:It's not about adding up guys who can hit a 3; it's about asking how many will be on the court at any given time, and how many of them can hit a shot if they're not WIIDDE open. Vuc and Ball can only hit wide open 3s; in Ball's case because he can't create separation and has a low release on his weird form. So for them to GET open, there has to be something creating those overlaps, otherwise they're not as helpful. Because your starting line-up will have DDR in it, there's one guy they can always sag off. The only guy who is a wetter from 3 in the starters is Lavine. Williams is a big question mark about how well he can shoot still. DDR also occupies the same space Vuc uses, which is why Thad couldn't start last year. If you were starting Coby White and DDR was 6th man I'd feel alot better about your spacing.


You don't think DD and Lavine can help create three point shots for spot up shooters? I feel like that is one of DD's strengths.
I also think Coby is underrated from three. The last 30 games he played, he shot 38% on over 6 attempts. As for the thad young comparison, DD is a MUCH better creator and shooter than him despite not having three point range. Why would he have an issue surrounded by multiple high volume, high percentage three point shooters as opposed to say, him guarding big wings? I certainly dont consider spacing a weakness of the team. IMO at WORST, they will be an average three point shooting team.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#82 » by Wingy » Wed Sep 8, 2021 7:16 pm

I'm going to guess...maybe a little? I think it's a valid concern, but I've thought of it this way.

Can DD/Zach/Vuc (or some combo) focus in and play better defense in spots? It's possible their mental lapses, and shortcomings bite us in key moments, but the alternative is also possible. They could lock in, and play a big defensive possession or two when it matters (e.g. - see Kevin Love on Steph Curry. Gimpy, but still...Steph Curry).

I don't see players of the opposite skillset being able to rise to the occasion as easily. Think Ben Simmons. Superb defender, but does anyone trust that a guy like that can suddenly grow his offensive skillset, and confidence at any given key moment in time?

In the absence of two-way stars, I'll take our guys' defensive limitations in today's game over the other side of the coin.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#83 » by DWhiteMamba » Wed Sep 8, 2021 9:04 pm

ShootersShoot wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:It's not about adding up guys who can hit a 3; it's about asking how many will be on the court at any given time, and how many of them can hit a shot if they're not WIIDDE open. Vuc and Ball can only hit wide open 3s; in Ball's case because he can't create separation and has a low release on his weird form. So for them to GET open, there has to be something creating those overlaps, otherwise they're not as helpful. Because your starting line-up will have DDR in it, there's one guy they can always sag off. The only guy who is a wetter from 3 in the starters is Lavine. Williams is a big question mark about how well he can shoot still. DDR also occupies the same space Vuc uses, which is why Thad couldn't start last year. If you were starting Coby White and DDR was 6th man I'd feel alot better about your spacing.


You don't think DD and Lavine can help create three point shots for spot up shooters? I feel like that is one of DD's strengths.
I also think Coby is underrated from three. The last 30 games he played, he shot 38% on over 6 attempts. As for the thad young comparison, DD is a MUCH better creator and shooter than him despite not having three point range. Why would he have an issue surrounded by multiple high volume, high percentage three point shooters as opposed to say, him guarding big wings? I certainly dont consider spacing a weakness of the team. IMO at WORST, they will be an average three point shooting team.


Certainly DDR create open shots... when he has the ball in his spots, which are mostly in the low-post/high-post area, where he likes to live. So the place Vuc wants to be, and Lavine wants to get to sometimes, but now when they do they run into DeSlowzen. So as long as the guys around DDR are mostly there to space him, he'll be fine. When someone else has the ball? He's mostly useless. Other teams will not guard him and he will not shoot, and if he does he will start to lose confidence before long. By getting him you're creating an obstacle on O.

Who is the prototype for DDR in today's league? Who plays like him and is an impact player? I can't think of anyone.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#84 » by ShootersShoot » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:31 pm

DWhiteMamba wrote:
ShootersShoot wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:It's not about adding up guys who can hit a 3; it's about asking how many will be on the court at any given time, and how many of them can hit a shot if they're not WIIDDE open. Vuc and Ball can only hit wide open 3s; in Ball's case because he can't create separation and has a low release on his weird form. So for them to GET open, there has to be something creating those overlaps, otherwise they're not as helpful. Because your starting line-up will have DDR in it, there's one guy they can always sag off. The only guy who is a wetter from 3 in the starters is Lavine. Williams is a big question mark about how well he can shoot still. DDR also occupies the same space Vuc uses, which is why Thad couldn't start last year. If you were starting Coby White and DDR was 6th man I'd feel alot better about your spacing.


You don't think DD and Lavine can help create three point shots for spot up shooters? I feel like that is one of DD's strengths.
I also think Coby is underrated from three. The last 30 games he played, he shot 38% on over 6 attempts. As for the thad young comparison, DD is a MUCH better creator and shooter than him despite not having three point range. Why would he have an issue surrounded by multiple high volume, high percentage three point shooters as opposed to say, him guarding big wings? I certainly dont consider spacing a weakness of the team. IMO at WORST, they will be an average three point shooting team.


Certainly DDR create open shots... when he has the ball in his spots, which are mostly in the low-post/high-post area, where he likes to live. So the place Vuc wants to be, and Lavine wants to get to sometimes, but now when they do they run into DeSlowzen. So as long as the guys around DDR are mostly there to space him, he'll be fine. When someone else has the ball? He's mostly useless. Other teams will not guard him and he will not shoot, and if he does he will start to lose confidence before long. By getting him you're creating an obstacle on O.

Who is the prototype for DDR in today's league? Who plays like him and is an impact player? I can't think of anyone.


Well, Vuc likes to spot up for three as well, so its not like he will always be in the low/high post. DD is about as flawed a "star" player one can find, I don't disagree with that. You said the bulls have spot up shooters and no one is going to sag off DD which is true. However, DD's going to have the ball in his hands, he's not always going to play off ball. When Lavine sits, DD's going to be more of a primary ball handler as well. DD when he doesnt have the ball in the half court will be a concern, no doubt. I think surrounding DD with good three point shooters is about as ideal a fit as you can find, despite his glaring weaknesses. I just don't think overall team spacing is an issue for the bulls. It may not be a strength of the team per se, but its not something I would view as a concern or weakness that can be exploited consistently. DD having to guard the likes of Tatum, Middleton, Butler etc however, I feel can be exploited more often than his lack of spacing.

As for what players stylistically resemble DD and impacts winning..not many if at all. Dwade played somewhat similarly on offense but of course DD aint no Dwade. I do think DD can be successful/impactful as a third option, instead of a first or second like he's been his entire career. But yea, given his glaring weaknesses on both ends, it will always be difficult if virtually impossible to build a legit contender around him, and I don't think the bulls are anywhere near a legit contender.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#85 » by DWhiteMamba » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:50 pm

D.Wade shot the 3 sometimes, and in his prime got to the rim at will. Any other comparisons?
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#86 » by ShootersShoot » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:54 pm

DWhiteMamba wrote:D.Wade shot the 3 sometimes, and in his prime got to the rim at will. Any other comparisons?


Like I said, not many if at all..but the discussion wasn't "is DD an impactful player?" It was, "are the bulls a poor spacing team?"
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#87 » by DWhiteMamba » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:55 pm

ShootersShoot wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:D.Wade shot the 3 sometimes, and in his prime got to the rim at will. Any other comparisons?


Like I said, not many if at all..but the discussion wasn't "is DD an impactful player?" It was, "are the bulls a poor spacing team?"

Some people think the two questions are related :wink:
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#88 » by ShootersShoot » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:57 pm

DWhiteMamba wrote:
ShootersShoot wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:D.Wade shot the 3 sometimes, and in his prime got to the rim at will. Any other comparisons?


Like I said, not many if at all..but the discussion wasn't "is DD an impactful player?" It was, "are the bulls a poor spacing team?"

Some people think the two questions are related :wink:


Well then take it up with those people. I think that based on what DD does as a player and the teammates he has around him, that the bulls' spacing is not a concern. If you disagree that is fine, we can just revisit this point some time mid season once we have actual tangible data if we so desire. At this point I can be wrong since we havent seen this group play together yet. 8-)

FWIW
Dwade age 24-31: 2.1 3PA, 28.9%
DDerozan age 24-31: 1.7 3PA, 29.2%
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#89 » by DWhiteMamba » Wed Sep 8, 2021 11:26 pm

Wade also played in an era where the 3 was much less important for the most part of his career, and as I emphasised he could get to the basket at will. Wade was good defensively too, and was a much better player. If this was 2008 I'd care alot less about DDR being unable to hit a 3.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#90 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:33 am

DWhiteMamba wrote:Wade also played in an era where the 3 was much less important for the most part of his career, and as I emphasised he could get to the basket at will. Wade was good defensively too, and was a much better player. If this was 2008 I'd care alot less about DDR being unable to hit a 3.



DDR would be much more valuable if he played D and shot more 3's, no doubt about that. that being said, there was no mystery of what he was to the Bulls FO and you assume that they are schemed to work with those limitations and take advantage of what he does do well. Will it work out? Who knows but he has skill set that is usable if properly instituted I think the looks the Bulls throw out there this year will be very head scratching at times and may absolutely fail, but they will be interesting.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#91 » by DWhiteMamba » Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:57 am

I think if he's your 6th man you will love having him.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#92 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:10 am

bueller wrote:We arguably have up to 10 above average defenders.

Lonzo Ball
Patrick Williams
Alex Caruso
Javonte Green
Troy Brown Jr.
Derrick Jones Jr.
Tony Bradley
Ayo Dosunmu
Stanley Johnson
Alize Johnson
You can add Lavine to that list

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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#93 » by Stratmaster » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:15 am

kodo wrote:
sco wrote:
dice wrote:when is the last time there was a team as functionally height-deficient as the bulls?

I think they have decent height everywhere except PF. And Lauri taught us that PF height <> rim protection.

I think you're right.
Looking up average player height by position from 2019/20,

PG: 6' 2.5" (Lonzo 6' 6" from NBA.com, I thought he was 6' 4")
SG: 6' 4.4" (Lavine 6' 5")
SF: 6' 6.4" (Derozan 6' 6")
PF: 6' 8.2" (Williams 6' 7")
C: 6' 10.6" (Vucevic 6' 11")

We're 1" short on PF, average at SF, and slightly above average elsewhere. And to do the Tyrus thing, I thought Williams looked 6' 8" this summer. But I don't think height matters anywhere other than Center, personally. I'll take Draymond on defense or Zion on offense at PF any day.

The PF slot has been shrinking rapidly, in 2015 the average PF was 6' 9" 242 lbs. In 19/20 it was 6' 8.2" 231 lbs. Center OTOH has gone down only 0.3" in that time span.
What is your source for that.

The PF position has shrunk 1 inch over 10 years.

It has shrunk less than any other position on the court in that time.

What are the numbers for the other positions since 2015?

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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#94 » by Dez » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:32 am

DWhiteMamba wrote:I think if he's your 6th man you will love having him.


Again he'll be good as a starter because has good players around him.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#95 » by bueller » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:39 pm

If I'm arguing that defense will be an issue, we lost our best defenders in Thad, Temple, and Theis. Sad!

Counterpoints:

We added Caruso, Lonzo, Derrick Jones Jr., and Tony Bradley, and will have a full season of Troy Brown Jr.

And as someone mentioned above, Zach has been improving on defense every year, and PAW figures to take a step up on defense.

And Donovan has a track record of putting together good team defenses.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#96 » by FriedRise » Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:11 am

Since we're talking defense...

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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#97 » by NecessaryEvil » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:49 pm

I'd say defensively, we're going to go up a couple notches with this bunch


Ball or Caruso
Zach or Ayo
TBJ or DJJ
Pat or Alize or Stanley Johnson
Bradley


We have capable defenders everywhere now ....

I think we're going to be the most improved team in the NBA.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#98 » by TeamMan » Fri Oct 8, 2021 6:09 am

After watching the Cavs game, I decided to go back and find this thread again.

The reason is because of an observation that I made about the team as a whole...

The Bulls players have really, really quick hands.

It's an intangible that you can't quantify. So, no one could have projected what was going to happen.

Over the past years, I remember hearing Stacy King pound it into the ground, "You've got to get to the 50/50 balls."

And I also remember a quote from Bill Cartwright when he talked about 50/50 balls - he said, "We got all of them!"

With 50/50 balls, there is a fraction of a second where the ball just seems to be hanging in the air, and during the Cavs game, it seemed like (every time) one of the Bulls players (with lightening quickness) reached out and snatched the ball out of the air.

And the player who surprised me most was Vuc. With centers we tend to think about rim-protection. But, when a player goes 1-on-1 against him (not only other centers), Vuc has a real knack of getting his hands on the ball and slapping it away (often to another Bulls player.)

I went back and checked the stats against the Cavs and they had 20 TOs, but 13 of those TOs were Bulls steals. And that does not include the effect from getting most of the 50/50 balls.

So, the Bulls quick hands is something that I'll be watching as the season goes on. My fear is that the refs will start to call fouls in those situations. But I've also seen that, even if the a player is fouled, when it happens super quick, the refs will miss it. So, that'll also be something to keep and eye on.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#99 » by RSP83 » Fri Oct 8, 2021 6:26 am

Defensively I don't think we should be looking to reach Thibs Bulls level. That team was built with Defense as THE foundation. That Thibs team success relied a lot on the ability to keep defensive execution at near perfect level. This BD team is quite the opposite, the success will depend more on offensive execution, and the defense is the means to generate even more buckets. So watch out for forcing more turnovers and better TO-to-point conversion ratio.
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Re: Defense... is this issue overblown? 

Post#100 » by wickywack » Fri Oct 8, 2021 12:53 pm

ShootersShoot wrote:
DWhiteMamba wrote:
ShootersShoot wrote:
Like I said, not many if at all..but the discussion wasn't "is DD an impactful player?" It was, "are the bulls a poor spacing team?"

Some people think the two questions are related :wink:


Well then take it up with those people. I think that based on what DD does as a player and the teammates he has around him, that the bulls' spacing is not a concern. If you disagree that is fine, we can just revisit this point some time mid season once we have actual tangible data if we so desire. At this point I can be wrong since we havent seen this group play together yet. 8-)

FWIW
Dwade age 24-31: 2.1 3PA, 28.9%
DDerozan age 24-31: 1.7 3PA, 29.2%


On the offensive side, at least, Jimmy Butler isn't that different, and the Heat got in a finals run with him:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=butleji01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2021

Obviously, they're not in the same class on defense, but I'm not too worried about DeRozan's offense.

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