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The Bulls path to becoming a top tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements

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Most feasible, yet unlikely player development this season

Zach becomes an top-tier defensive player (on top of keeping his offensive level flat from last year)
3
6%
Pat becomes a 14 ppg 8 rb 1 bk guy
31
57%
Lonzo becomes a 16 ppg 8 ast guy
17
31%
Coby gets his FG% up to 48% buy learning to shoot floaters
3
6%
 
Total votes: 54

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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#41 » by Just_Bullz » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:39 am

Definitely need at least 2 players to grow into NBA all defensive team level in order to be top tier.

With talents surrounding him, I reckon Zach can work on his defense. The other I hope will be PWill and/or Alize.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#42 » by NecessaryEvil » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:06 pm

Pat is the key. If and when he blossoms, this team will go up another notch. a Kawhi-lite type player but at PF? He's pretty much the future. Not saying he'd be anywhere near as good but he obviously patterns his game around Kawhi. I predict his breakout for the following season though.

First time in a while we've had so many young talents with potential. Let's see how well this coaching staff can develop.


Ayo Dosunmu
Patrick Williams
Tony Bradley
Alize Johnson
Marko Simonovic
Troy Brown Jr.
Coby White


Ayo & Alize will be nice sparks for this team off the bench.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#43 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:48 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:Pat is the key. If and when he blossoms, this team will go up another notch. a Kawhi-lite type player but at PF? He's pretty much the future. Not saying he'd be anywhere near as good but he obviously patterns his game around Kawhi. I predict his breakout for the following season though.

First time in a while we've had so many young talents with potential. Let's see how well this coaching staff can develop.


Ayo Dosunmu
Patrick Williams
Tony Bradley
Alize Johnson
Marko Simonovic
Troy Brown Jr.
Coby White


Ayo & Alize will be nice sparks for this team off the bench.



If patty poop can copy Kawhi’s game as much as Kobe copied MJ’s the Bulls will be a ok. Leonard’s defensive intuition though is so good as is his offensive and that is hard to just get. Pat has to try to position himself defensively like Kawhi.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#44 » by sco » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:32 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:Pat is the key. If and when he blossoms, this team will go up another notch. a Kawhi-lite type player but at PF? He's pretty much the future. Not saying he'd be anywhere near as good but he obviously patterns his game around Kawhi. I predict his breakout for the following season though.

First time in a while we've had so many young talents with potential. Let's see how well this coaching staff can develop.


Ayo Dosunmu
Patrick Williams
Tony Bradley
Alize Johnson
Marko Simonovic
Troy Brown Jr.
Coby White


Ayo & Alize will be nice sparks for this team off the bench.



If patty poop can copy Kawhi’s game as much as Kobe copied MJ’s the Bulls will be a ok. Leonard’s defensive intuition though is so good as is his offensive and that is hard to just get. Pat has to try to position himself defensively like Kawhi.

Yeah, I get it with the whole "reminds me of Kawhi" thing, but sometimes the thing that walks like a duck and talks like a duck is just a weird old lady with a speach impediment. Lauri was the next Dirk too!
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Re: The Bulls path to better than 8th seed via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#45 » by dice » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:20 pm

MrSparkle wrote:It's all about the x-factor breakout player: Lonzo, Pat, Troy - one, some or all 3. Could be low-impact disappointments, or game-changers. I have a decent feeling about all 3, though I'm willing to be patient with them- particularly Pat. Troy is in a prove-it-or-lose-it contract situation, so he's got the highest pressure to perform. Really, most reasonable hope is marginal improvements in % and efficiency from all 3, not so much scoring averages. It'd obviously be pretty cool if Lonzo or Pat started playing like top picks, but I don't expect it. Derrick Jones, Bradley, Alize and Stanley also are in this realm of mystery ceiling, though definitely as role-players (PJ Tucker or Ariza realm).

Rest of the crew has a predictable floor and ceiling. You hope the stars play efficient offense together, the defensive guys shoot some solid percentages, and the 3rd stringers can hang... but you also can't reasonably expect them to play far beyond their means (incl. Zach's defense, Coby's FG% or adding a floater).

But 8th seed is such a low bar. I'm willing to choke on my cake if this team ends lower than 6th seed. I stand by circumstantial factors causing the post-deadline team to suck (inc. the embarrassing loss to the WCJ Magic)... and every problem that existed with this team last year (both iterations) has been addressed two-fold. IMO the pessimists will be eating crow as this team rolls with a .750 record into December (boosted by a very easy schedule the first month).

For the record, I don't think we'll be parading in Grant Park. Just plain facts: the East isn't very good, the Bulls have a strong depth chart, and zero weaknesses (just some short-comings, i.e. DeRozan/Vuc defense, Lonzo's dribble/bucket creation, Pat's aggressiveness, etc.). But I don't see any bad players who Donovan's going to HAVE to play (and get killed); like the dilemmas he had with having to run Gafford as starting C, Lauri at SF, closing with Valentine as primary ballhandler, running Coby at the point for 35 mpg, having Pat play a full-time role, etc.

I see a 2-4 seed on paper. Willing to gamble on one of those x-factors raising their percentages and defensive impacts. Not willing to gamble on Zach becoming a defensive freak, Pat/Lonzo jumping their PPG averages, or Coby adding a floater.

huh? the bulls have an absolutely horrible depth chart and very obvious defensive deficiencies
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Re: The Bulls path to better than 8th seed via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#46 » by dice » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:22 pm

SalmonsSuperfan wrote:
jsleesl28 wrote:
SalmonsSuperfan wrote:we were almost the 8th seed last season for what it's worth


off topic but your salmons jab step gif is awesome. lol

i love it, someone on this forum made it years and years ago.

now anyone who didn't know john salmons and his game would think it was harden...even with your username
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#47 » by dice » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:25 pm

coldfish wrote:Boston has a terrible roster and just finished a season at 0.500. Most pundits put them above Chicago.

well they did just add schroeder
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#48 » by dice » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:27 pm

coldfish wrote:Could go anywhere, I'll put it here. If a team put together 3 players who did this last year:

SG 27.4p 5.0r 4.9a 63.4%ts
SF 21.6p 4.2r 6.9a 59.1%ts
C 23.4p 11.7r 3.8a 56.0%ts

They would be talked about as a contender, not a potential #8 seed.

sure, if you leave out the rest of the roster and those players' reputations for mediocre defense
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#49 » by coldfish » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:40 pm

dice wrote:
coldfish wrote:Could go anywhere, I'll put it here. If a team put together 3 players who did this last year:

SG 27.4p 5.0r 4.9a 63.4%ts
SF 21.6p 4.2r 6.9a 59.1%ts
C 23.4p 11.7r 3.8a 56.0%ts

They would be talked about as a contender, not a potential #8 seed.

sure, if you leave out the rest of the roster and those players' reputations for mediocre defense


Unlike Trae Young or James Harden, those bastions of defensive wizardry.

The rest of the Bulls roster really isn't bad. Tankers would be happy to just have a recent 20 year old #4 pick. Then you have Ball and Caruso. Overall, I would take Chicago's depth over a lot of teams considered to be among the top.

Just a quick exercise, someone post the 5th through 7th men on the top teams in the east. Its not an impressive list.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#50 » by dice » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:01 am

coldfish wrote:
dice wrote:
coldfish wrote:Could go anywhere, I'll put it here. If a team put together 3 players who did this last year:

SG 27.4p 5.0r 4.9a 63.4%ts
SF 21.6p 4.2r 6.9a 59.1%ts
C 23.4p 11.7r 3.8a 56.0%ts

They would be talked about as a contender, not a potential #8 seed.

sure, if you leave out the rest of the roster and those players' reputations for mediocre defense


Unlike Trae Young or James Harden, those bastions of defensive wizardry.

my point exactly. the hawks are a much deeper team. they're not a poor man's "big 3" like the bulls. and the nets have a very real "big 3"

The rest of the Bulls roster really isn't bad. Tankers would be happy to just have a recent 20 year old #4 pick.

that's a pretty interesting comment given that there's a poll currently up where there is wide consensus that the best way for the bulls to scratch contention would be for our 20 year old #4 pick to take a big leap

Then you have Ball and Caruso. Overall, I would take Chicago's depth over a lot of teams considered to be among the top.

there's no shortage of bulls who can play the guard position. that's not the issue. the issue is that there's exactly one proven big man on the roster. and he ain't exactly a defensive anchor

Just a quick exercise, someone post the 5th through 7th men on the top teams in the east. Its not an impressive list.

comparing 5th through 7th men is only a partial gauge of depth. but not only are the bulls relatively unproven 5-7 (williams, caruso, white), but the cupboard is virtually bare beyond that. it'd be one thing if the top 4 were perennial all-stars or if there was a real superstar or two on the roster. but there ain't

"nba hell" is the perennial churn of wishful thinking ("if player X and player Y really make a jump and the players who are doing well now continue to, maybe we're on to something!"). i hope that we're not on the cusp of 5-6 years of that, but it sure looks that way to me at the moment
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#51 » by coldfish » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:19 am

dice wrote:
coldfish wrote:
dice wrote:sure, if you leave out the rest of the roster and those players' reputations for mediocre defense


Unlike Trae Young or James Harden, those bastions of defensive wizardry.

my point exactly. the hawks are a much deeper team. they're not a poor man's "big 3" like the bulls. and the nets have a very real "big 3"

The rest of the Bulls roster really isn't bad. Tankers would be happy to just have a recent 20 year old #4 pick.

that's a pretty interesting comment given that there's a poll currently up where there is wide consensus that the best way for the bulls to scratch contention would be for our 20 year old #4 pick to take a big leap

Then you have Ball and Caruso. Overall, I would take Chicago's depth over a lot of teams considered to be among the top.

there's no shortage of bulls who can play the guard position. that's not the issue. the issue is that there's exactly one proven big man on the roster. and he ain't exactly a defensive anchor

Just a quick exercise, someone post the 5th through 7th men on the top teams in the east. Its not an impressive list.

comparing 5th through 7th men is only a partial gauge of depth. but not only are the bulls relatively unproven 5-7 (williams, caruso, white), but the cupboard is virtually bare beyond that. it'd be one thing if the top 4 were perennial all-stars or if there was a real superstar or two on the roster. but there ain't

"nba hell" is the perennial churn of wishful thinking ("if player X and player Y really make a jump and the players who are doing well now continue to, maybe we're on to something!"). i hope that we're not on the cusp of 5-6 years of that, but it sure looks that way to me at the moment

Random comments:
- "nba hell" to me is forever tanking, churning through disappointing picks on your way to 25 win seasons. Statistically, a mediocre team is more likely to become a contender than a bad one.
- tankers would have said that the hawks were in their version of nba hell and never would have built around trae young, until they would
- feel free to go down any top team's depth list. Its not good. Whatever arbitrary line you want to draw for where depth matters, Chicago isn't going to look bad in comparison to other teams.
- Who is Miami's second quality big man? Who Philadelphia's (you aren't going to say SF Tobias Harris are you?) Boston?
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#52 » by MGB8 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:03 am

Cold makes a good point.

Look at the Nets - Kyrie and Harden are poor defensively, Harris passable, Jeff Green passable, Durant good, Griffin passable, Jordan was less than passable, Brown good…. didn’t have trouble wrecking teams… Aldridge is good but no longer great, Mills passable…

N the West, the Nuggets without best perimeter defender Murray were still strong despite Jokic being passable, Porter and Barton poor, only Gordon and Green very good and god, respectively. Dallas has two good defenders in DFS and Kleber… and everyone else pretty much meh or worse.

Miami had two very good defenders in Butler and Bam, declining defenders in Ariza and Iggy, and then poor to passable guys.

Yeah, the Bucks, Suns, Clipps, Sixers, Celtics are deep with defenders, the Jazz less so, but, otoh, the Lakers swapped out their best perimeter defenders, KCP and Caruso, for more shooting.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#53 » by NecessaryEvil » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:26 am

sco wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:Pat is the key. If and when he blossoms, this team will go up another notch. a Kawhi-lite type player but at PF? He's pretty much the future. Not saying he'd be anywhere near as good but he obviously patterns his game around Kawhi. I predict his breakout for the following season though.

First time in a while we've had so many young talents with potential. Let's see how well this coaching staff can develop.


Ayo Dosunmu
Patrick Williams
Tony Bradley
Alize Johnson
Marko Simonovic
Troy Brown Jr.
Coby White


Ayo & Alize will be nice sparks for this team off the bench.



If patty poop can copy Kawhi’s game as much as Kobe copied MJ’s the Bulls will be a ok. Leonard’s defensive intuition though is so good as is his offensive and that is hard to just get. Pat has to try to position himself defensively like Kawhi.

Yeah, I get it with the whole "reminds me of Kawhi" thing, but sometimes the thing that walks like a duck and talks like a duck is just a weird old lady with a speach impediment. Lauri was the next Dirk too!



I almost forgot about Lonzo, he’s still pretty young. What if he blossoms in Chicago?

But with Pat, last season he got rave reviews from everyone from Kawhi and PG13 to Lebron

I think he’ll be pretty good. Hopefully it happens this season but I think by yr three we’ll know who Patrick Williams is. BTW my good friend in real estate sold Pat his first property in Chicago.

I’ve been connected with a few people from the Bulls for quite a bit now, Mo Cheeks walks past my business pretty regularly ( I used to pick his brain that season before CP3 showed up, he thought it would be a hellish season ). He’s cool as hell, as well as his son.

I also know a person that works in the FO but again I try not to bother and pick said persons brain about deals much. I’m trying to position myself. Informational tidbits are cool, long lasting relationships are even better
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#54 » by dice » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:50 am

coldfish wrote:
dice wrote:
coldfish wrote:
Unlike Trae Young or James Harden, those bastions of defensive wizardry.

my point exactly. the hawks are a much deeper team. they're not a poor man's "big 3" like the bulls. and the nets have a very real "big 3"

The rest of the Bulls roster really isn't bad. Tankers would be happy to just have a recent 20 year old #4 pick.

that's a pretty interesting comment given that there's a poll currently up where there is wide consensus that the best way for the bulls to scratch contention would be for our 20 year old #4 pick to take a big leap

Then you have Ball and Caruso. Overall, I would take Chicago's depth over a lot of teams considered to be among the top.

there's no shortage of bulls who can play the guard position. that's not the issue. the issue is that there's exactly one proven big man on the roster. and he ain't exactly a defensive anchor

Just a quick exercise, someone post the 5th through 7th men on the top teams in the east. Its not an impressive list.

comparing 5th through 7th men is only a partial gauge of depth. but not only are the bulls relatively unproven 5-7 (williams, caruso, white), but the cupboard is virtually bare beyond that. it'd be one thing if the top 4 were perennial all-stars or if there was a real superstar or two on the roster. but there ain't

"nba hell" is the perennial churn of wishful thinking ("if player X and player Y really make a jump and the players who are doing well now continue to, maybe we're on to something!"). i hope that we're not on the cusp of 5-6 years of that, but it sure looks that way to me at the moment

Random comments:
- "nba hell" to me is forever tanking, churning through disappointing picks on your way to 25 win seasons.

you don't feel compelled to waste your time watch those teams though. and yeah, if you keep whiffing on draft picks you'll forever be bad. i can say that philly fans were all in on "the process" after years of mediocrity. we'll see if bulls fans are all in on artieball after the coming season

Statistically, a mediocre team is more likely to become a contender than a bad one.

certainly not when you trade future assets just to get up to mediocre

- tankers would have said that the hawks were in their version of nba hell and never would have built around trae young, until they would

the hawks are where they are at in no small part because they hit on both trae and john collins. but i'm not bullish on the hawks in the long term because neither collins nor trae has gotten paid yet

feel free to go down any top team's depth list. Its not good. Whatever arbitrary line you want to draw for where depth matters, Chicago isn't going to look bad in comparison to other teams.

i already did it specifically in response to one of your posts with the pacers. the reason that the pacers are considered roughly on par with the bulls is because of their depth

- Who is Miami's second quality big man?

they don't have one anymore. 'cause they traded olynyk mid-season. and then got destroyed on the boards while getting swept by milwaukee in the playoffs

Who Philadelphia's (you aren't going to say SF Tobias Harris are you?)

that's fair. but vucevic is no embiid, who is indeed a defensive anchor

Boston?

weren't you just talking about how overrated boston is? it's not because of smart/brown/tatum
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#55 » by jump » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:35 am

I haven't been as excited about this team sincve Noah stole the ball from Pierce and went full court in 4 steps to slam it home.

I feel the starting lineup is going to prove as good as any in the league. The offensive firepower is frightening and the defense competent. Over the next couple of years, I think what would propel us to a possible conference championship will come through the bench. Someone dominant on the bench offensively, and overall intense defensive performance will be the big changes that take us to the top.

A couple of years from now, we will have to reshuffle as Vuc and DDR probably slip and we look to retool. But to me, the long view looks just as exciting.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#56 » by IamSam » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:06 pm

coldfish wrote:Could go anywhere, I'll put it here. If a team put together 3 players who did this last year:

SG 27.4p 5.0r 4.9a 63.4%ts
SF 21.6p 4.2r 6.9a 59.1%ts
C 23.4p 11.7r 3.8a 56.0%ts

They would be talked about as a contender, not a potential #8 seed. The hate the Bulls are getting everywhere is to the point where its irrational. I get trying to be realistic but people frequently talk about the worst possible case (missing the playoffs) as being the most likely.


I think there will always be those that judge harshly until the team proves themselves; the lack of significant playoff experience for all but one of these players makes it easy for critics to remain pessimistic.

Hopefully this season they can begin to create the kind of team narrative that fans are looking for.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#57 » by ArtMorte » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:31 pm

I still have faith in Coby, the ability is there, just needs to get his decision-making right.
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#58 » by troza » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:56 pm

I do believe that the success of this team is they finding out how to play together. If they do, we will be in for a good ride.

Also... the seeding depends on that for other teams as well. We have some young players who can become better and it doesn't have to be on the numbers but doing what they do better when they have a chance (you know, just one ball to make plays).
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Re: The Bulls path to becoming a tip tier team in the East via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#59 » by d boy gentleman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:52 pm

dice wrote:
coldfish wrote:
dice wrote:

the hawks are where they are at in no small part because they hit on both trae and john collins. but i'm not bullish on the hawks in the long term because neither collins nor trae has gotten paid yet



Trae signed a 200M max extension this past Summer and Collins got 120M over 5 unless you referring to cap hit :dontknow:
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Re: The Bulls path to better than 8th seed via (unlikely) player improvements 

Post#60 » by jsleesl28 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:08 pm

dice wrote:
SalmonsSuperfan wrote:
jsleesl28 wrote:
off topic but your salmons jab step gif is awesome. lol

i love it, someone on this forum made it years and years ago.

now anyone who didn't know john salmons and his game would think it was harden...even with your username


wouldnt be too far off to say that Harden modeled his game on John Salmons.

also his looks.

lol

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