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Lonzo Ball discussion thread

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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#41 » by GoBlue72391 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:41 am

HomoSapien wrote:Lonzo talked about how he wanted to play in Chicago because we sold him on the idea of being able to play like a more traditional PG. Now he's averaging a career-low in assists and his usage is also near a career low. We're winning and he seems to be a pretty unselfish guy, but wonder if that's something that eventually becomes a thing.

If he wants to be a traditional PG and increase his APG he's going to have to develop into more of a scoring threat so he can actually be effective in the P&R, break down defenses, and draw defenders away from his teammates. Until he does that, this is the player he is, so he really can't get upset about not fulfilling that traditional PG role.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#42 » by jordanwilliams6 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:22 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
jordanwilliams6 wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:he’s a fine role player, but christ, can you imagine what a disaster this contract would have been if we didn’t lock down derozan

Agreed. We're probably sitting below 0.500 without DDR and we'd be having all kinds of issues.

He's going to be a very solid player on a very good team IMO. He just doesn't have the ability to be a third option due to his inability to create his own shot. Lonzo's value will always be his shooting, defense and intangibles he brings to a squad.


Did anyone ever expect him to be a 3rd option? I definitely didn’t. I think once he gets better in half court he score a bit more than he does right now though.

He signed before we acquired DDR so there's every chance Lonzo thought he would see a significant increase in usage and take more shots. I think it's pretty clear had that happened that we wouldn't be very good.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#43 » by HomoSapien » Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:32 am

jordanwilliams6 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
jordanwilliams6 wrote:Agreed. We're probably sitting below 0.500 without DDR and we'd be having all kinds of issues.

He's going to be a very solid player on a very good team IMO. He just doesn't have the ability to be a third option due to his inability to create his own shot. Lonzo's value will always be his shooting, defense and intangibles he brings to a squad.


Did anyone ever expect him to be a 3rd option? I definitely didn’t. I think once he gets better in half court he score a bit more than he does right now though.

He signed before we acquired DDR so there's every chance Lonzo thought he would see a significant increase in usage and take more shots. I think it's pretty clear had that happened that we wouldn't be very good.


I never really thought he'd be a third option, even if he was technically part of the "big 3". Someone like Coby or Rose (if we had gone that route) would have always been ahead of him as a scorer. WIthout DDR, Vuc we're probably playing a little slower and pounding the post with Vuc.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#44 » by sco » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:54 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:The majority of this board seemed to share the strange belief that Lonzo is a complete, all-around PG and floor general despite the stats, analytics, and film making it clear that he is not that player at all. He is good at what he does, but the fact is he doesn't do a whole lot, and we should have known and expected that when we signed him.

Pros:
- Fantastic transition playmaker with impeccable vision and instincts
- Very versatile and disruptive defender that can switch and guard multiple positions
- Good 3-point shooter on spot-up/catch-and-shoot opportunities
- Good rebounder for a PG
- Reasonably athletic

Cons:
- Scoring is mostly limited to spot-up threes and transition baskets
- Very poor finisher and because of that is not a consistent threat to drive, cut, or get to the FT line
- His halfcourt playmaking, especially in the P&R, is limited due to his inability to be a consistent scoring threat
- Due to his lack of scoring ability and limited halfcourt playmaking, his teammates receive more attention from opposing defenses
- Doesn't seem to be consistently capable of making use of his significant size advantage against most opposing PGs

With the exception of his defense, which has been better than I expected, Lonzo is exactly the player I thought he was. Ricky Rubio is closer to this board's vision of who they thought/hoped Lonzo is. I think the disconnect between what Lonzo is and what many thought/hoped he was is mostly due to our complete lack of good PG play over the last several years combined with the amount of hype Lonzo and his family have received since before he even entered the league, most of it undeserved.

He has a grand total of 6 FT attempts this season (0.6 per game) and is shooting under 50% on lay-ups (7 of 15). He can't consistently penetrate and break down the defense which significantly limits his halfcourt playmaking ability and he's not a threat as a scorer in the P&R, so defenders will typically ignore him and focus on the roll man, which limits makes things harder on his teammates.

At the time, I believed we overpaid for him and I still believe that. Not significantly, and I doubt his contract will have any negative effects on us now or in the future, but to me he seems like more of a $15-18M player rather than a $20M+ player. Unless significant changes to his game are made, he's never going to be a consistent halfcourt playmaker, finisher, or scoring threat, so we shouldn't expect that of him.

He is what he is, which is a good role player with significant limitations. He's basically a 3&D PG, and that's not a bad thing.

I like your post, it raises some good questions.

His low assist number is of concern to me too. That said, I see a few of items that are impacting it. First, Vuc's terrible shooting % has to be impact assist numbers, as he is probably our most assisted player. I think losing Pat, who would also be a guy who is heavily assisted on his shots, hurts too, as Green gets most of his shots off of RB's and TO's. Also, DD's dribble-heavy scoring game, takes away assists.

I am also surprised by Ball's amazingly bad inside-the-arc shooting. Adding to that, he seems unable to easily dunk. Not being able to score in the paint makes him less effective as a playmaker in the half court because teams don't need to rotate to stop his penetration, which may the main headwind to his half-court playmaking.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#45 » by TheAlanParsons » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:21 pm

Reminds of Ricky Rubio to be honest.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#46 » by Sprewell4Three » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:46 pm

If he developed into an andre miller type point guard in the half court would do him wonders. He's 6'6 but never utilizes his size on offense. Today's players are so fixated on being like Steph Curry and popping 3's that they neglet utilizing their physical gifts.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#47 » by nanokooshball » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:50 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
nanokooshball wrote:
madvillian wrote:
Yea I can see that. Similar impact defensively, not great in the half court. Lonzo is certainly the better transition player and neither guy is that good at running a half court offense. Kirk had more scoring volume but it wasn't that efficient. Thankfully Lonzo has more scorers around him than Kirk did.


I think Lonzo's defense is tiers greater thanHinrich. Hinrich was a great individual defender and knew where to be and where to help. However, Lonzo is EVERYWHERE. He literally is our version of Draymond. Kirk's ceiling was maybe a 2nd team all defense guard; Lonzo is in conversation of top 5 DPOY candidate.

Kirk, I would say had a little bit better handle and could get to the rim a bit better. Had a much better mid range shot and cross over mid range shot. But, I think Lonzo in general runs the offense better, sees things 2-3 steps ahead of things and makes the smart hockey pass. Whereas Hinrich would generally run in circles and hold onto the ball way longer without any real clear goal.

Are we forgetting the defense Kirk played on prime D Wade in the playoffs. Lonzo's defense has been pretty great so far, but I would stop short of saying he's tiers greater than Kirk on that side of the ball. Maybe eventually, but I would need to see him do it consistently for years and in the playoffs against the game's best.


I definitely do remember his defense against Wade. Which made him a great isolation defender and capable all defensive 2nd team. Kirk was one of the best one on one defenders at the 1 and 2. The difference is Lonzo is equivalant of a one on one defender, but can defend 1-3, some 4s, but also disrupts the whole offense. He has a knack of known when to be to create deflections and steals as well as rebounding. Kirk didn't really alter your whole defensive system, whereas it seems like ours focuses on Lonzo and point of attack w Caruso
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#48 » by LateNight » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:07 pm

He is who he is - I’m pretty happy with his play at this point. Yes there are offensive limitations, but I think the defense makes up for that
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#49 » by bad knees » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:00 am

He is who I thought he was, except that he has been better as an on-ball defender than I anticipated (based on the analyses of his play with NOP). He is a good fit with LaVine, which makes him valuable to the Bulls. He was very smart to sign with us because Zach (and now DDR) cover up his weaknesses. I am very happy that his talk about wanting to be a "traditional PG" appears to have been just that - talk. He seems to realize that his limited role with the Bulls is best for him, and if he tried to do more, it would be ugly. Also, recall that the last year of his four-year contract is a Player Option. Unless something goes really wrong, he is likely to opt out so he can sign another big, multi-year contract at the age of 26. So in practical reality, his contract is 3/58.6. That seems like a better deal for us than 4/80. Maybe when his three years are up, Ayo is ready to be PG next to Zach.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#50 » by Repeat 3-peat » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:27 am

On offense he's been what I expected, more of a 3&D wing in the half court than a true point guard but Ball is shooting 40% from three, and I think he can still do more on offense. All and all, he's been a great fit with both Zach and DDR. It's his defense that has been making me more excited that he is here. He has been a good defender in years past but Ball went to another level on that end this season. I believe Ball is on his way to being selected on the all defensive team and Imo at this early point of the season it's a snub if he's not on the 1st team.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#51 » by panthermark » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:30 am

He has great vision and is an excellent passer.
He is not a great playmaker.

He is who he is. Luckily, DD and Zach naturally take on some of the playmaking role.
For as many guards as this team has, there really isn't a halfcourt "playmaking" PG on the roster. Maybe Ayo grows into one? Ball, Caruso, and Coby are not that type of PG.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#52 » by BullChit » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:35 am

Ball is as advertised on offense however defense is where he has blown me away.

Look I think the Bulls fandom is split into two camps of the kind of PG play we need/would like.

Personally with Zach, DeMar and Vuc it would be a detriment to have a Rubio style PG with the ball in his hands. I honestly think Lonzo caps out offensively giving 14-16ppg with 7 or so assist (once Vuc starts hitting his shots) with a huge huge impact on D.

Just a note about the 4th quarter against Brooklyn when the starters came back in and we all collectively crapped ourselves it was Ball who pushed the ball in the half court and kept the momentum going.

His first play was a drive that drew 3 defenders and kick to an open Vuc.
He also had the drive for the corner kick out to Ayo for 3
And also his quick trigger 3 over a closing out Durant to really sink the dagger.

Lonzo is to me exactly what this team needs in a PG the same way the Bulls Point guards during the dynasty were exactly what they needed to be.

(not equating this team to the Dynasty team just talking about the idea of ideal fit on the roster)
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#53 » by kodo » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:27 am

He just threw a pass that will probably be shown in years to come on "best assists in the NBA" comps.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#54 » by The 6ft Hurdle » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:52 am

I'm as shocked anyone at his defensive prowess; wasn't known for that, either in HS or college.

His defense combined with his touchdown passes and oops have injected such a punch in our game --- they really drum up the momentum --- key to breaking games open.

His half-court offense however, when nothing in particular is going right, he's overly deferential to the point of predictability. Too many times when he's just handing it off to Zach or Demar. Also, I honestly don't know how he's averaged 11 ppg this season --- seems like he has the potential do so much more.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#55 » by t-time » Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:10 am

I think he has been fantastic. His IQ is off the charts. He does all of the little things on the court that you don’t see show up on the box score.

He and AC have helped changed the identity of the team on the defensive end. Lonzo can legit guard 1-4 and hold his own against most guys.

We have two star players that like to create their own shots. He is unselfish and defers to them when required.

He could pound the ball more and fish for assists but that is not his game.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#56 » by imagge » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:18 pm

Lonzo comp has always been Jason Kidd not Chris Paul. The 2 are completely different hall of fame PGs…..Zo is showing the same JKidd game of pushing pace, throwing lobs and just running the offense in the half court without dominating the ball. Oh by the way JKidd was an excellent defender….sounds like Lonzo trajectory this is a winning PG in the NBA in any era

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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#57 » by HoopsterJones » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:10 pm

Lonzo’s playing the perfect role right now for the Bulls opposite Vuc, Zach, and DDR.

1. Taking the toughest defensive assignments
2. Rotating and doubling on help defense
3. Stretching the floor by nailing 3’s at a high clip
4. Get the ball up the court in transition
5. Playing the PG role without always needing the ball in his hands
6. Moving without the ball
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#58 » by The Explorer » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:33 pm

I won't mention the positives as that's already been thoroughly discussed.
I will say though that I'm surprised how bad he has been inside the arc. Shooting around 40% on 2 pointers. Last night he got blocked around 3 times going to the rim, showing no vision of guys closing in on him, nor any creativity around the rim. In a tight playoff series against great defenses like the Bucks or Heat, that could be exposed. As a scorer, he's basically like Duncan Robinson, feast or famine from distance.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#59 » by jump » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:37 pm

If he can improve his mid range game by learning from DDR, he will be fantastic. As for now, I'm totally happy he's on our team.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#60 » by bledredwine » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm

DuckIII wrote:He’s Draymond Green at point guard. His positive impact on the game is massive relative to his statistical output. I agree that he is what I thought he was: pretty close to a perfect point guard to play next to Lavine.

Hugely successful signing so far.


This.

At the beginning of the year, I told my friends I thought we'd be top 10 in defense and they probably thought that I was nuts.
But Lonzo is a smart, high-impact player. That sort of vet-like intelligence always helps a team grab wins.
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