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Lonzo Ball discussion thread

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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#61 » by logical_art » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:53 pm

His defense is a little better than I thought. His offense a little worse.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#62 » by sco » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:51 pm

Saw this: https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/11/10/22772119/lonzo-ball-wouldve-been-a-perfect-dallas-maverick

He’s a shot-creator that doesn’t need to have the ball in his hands. When he gets the ball, he moves it quickly. Of all guards who get more than 70 touches per game, Ball averages the fewest seconds per touch and the fewest dribbles per touch. He’s the exact opposite of a black hole on offense.


Dallas has a problem in the backcourt right now. Either they start Jalen Brunson, leaving the Mavs’ bench powerless, or they bring Brunson off the bench, leaving the starting unit without a true secondary creator. Being able to start the game with a guy like Lonzo playing next to Luka would’ve allowed the Mavs to use Brunson effortlessly off the bench — the role that’s best suited for him. But alas.

Maybe White/Marko/Matt T. for Kleber helps us both?
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#63 » by Dan Z » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:16 pm

sco wrote:Saw this: https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/11/10/22772119/lonzo-ball-wouldve-been-a-perfect-dallas-maverick

He’s a shot-creator that doesn’t need to have the ball in his hands. When he gets the ball, he moves it quickly. Of all guards who get more than 70 touches per game, Ball averages the fewest seconds per touch and the fewest dribbles per touch. He’s the exact opposite of a black hole on offense.


Dallas has a problem in the backcourt right now. Either they start Jalen Brunson, leaving the Mavs’ bench powerless, or they bring Brunson off the bench, leaving the starting unit without a true secondary creator. Being able to start the game with a guy like Lonzo playing next to Luka would’ve allowed the Mavs to use Brunson effortlessly off the bench — the role that’s best suited for him. But alas.

Maybe White/Marko/Matt T. for Kleber helps us both?


Kleber seems like a decent player, but for now I'd rather wait and see what White can bring to this team (when he comes back).
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#64 » by sco » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:08 pm

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/lakers-roots-bulls-bond-lonzo-ball-appreciates-journey
I definitely thought we paid full price for him (over-pay if there's a penalty, but I'll be optimistic we don't lose a 1st). His 3-D game has been super valuable. If he can figure out how to score in the paint, we'll have another allstar on the roster.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#65 » by Hold That » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:17 pm

sco wrote:https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/lakers-roots-bulls-bond-lonzo-ball-appreciates-journey
I definitely thought we paid full price for him (over-pay if there's a penalty, but I'll be optimistic we don't lose a 1st). His 3-D game has been super valuable. If he can figure out how to score in the paint, we'll have another allstar on the roster.

He basically got the same “prove it” deal Zach got from the Bulls before proving he’s max worthy. I think he was another reasonable signing and is in the same position Zach was when we got him from Minnesota.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#66 » by kodo » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:28 pm



The main thing I got from this is that there were other teams very seriously wanting Lonzo, and it was a smart move for AK to tamper and sign him ASAP.

If we lose a 1st rounder, that might still be an OK price to pay for him. The package we sent out (Sato, Temple) for him was pure garbage, and he was Restricted.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#67 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:55 am

Hold That wrote:
sco wrote:https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/lakers-roots-bulls-bond-lonzo-ball-appreciates-journey
I definitely thought we paid full price for him (over-pay if there's a penalty, but I'll be optimistic we don't lose a 1st). His 3-D game has been super valuable. If he can figure out how to score in the paint, we'll have another allstar on the roster.

He basically got the same “prove it” deal Zach got from the Bulls before proving he’s max worthy. I think he was another reasonable signing and is in the same position Zach was when we got him from Minnesota.



And Zach improved year after year at similar ages. So there is reason to believe it’s a good gamble. Make a player prove it and grow. Many thought Zach wasn’t worth the matching at the time. Time will tell but you have to make calculated gambles to ever win. At the very least we got a 3D player which we needed. He is also a big Sato upgrade. Sooooooo. Not every signing is a no brainer I mean you are fighting 29 other teams for the chance to get those guys.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#68 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:07 am

Hold That wrote:
sco wrote:https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/lakers-roots-bulls-bond-lonzo-ball-appreciates-journey
I definitely thought we paid full price for him (over-pay if there's a penalty, but I'll be optimistic we don't lose a 1st). His 3-D game has been super valuable. If he can figure out how to score in the paint, we'll have another allstar on the roster.

He basically got the same “prove it” deal Zach got from the Bulls before proving he’s max worthy. I think he was another reasonable signing and is in the same position Zach was when we got him from Minnesota.

While he's a solid player, I think it's a safe bet that he won't reach anywhere near the same heights Zach has on his prove-it deal.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#69 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:08 am

I've been harping on it a lot lately, but is Zo the worst finisher amongst starting PGs? He's got to be up there.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#70 » by Bulls Lifer » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:19 am

....
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#71 » by kodo » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:54 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:I've been harping on it a lot lately, but is Zo the worst finisher amongst starting PGs? He's got to be up there.


Don't think so, he's 61% near the rim, that's close to what Beal is averaging (62%).
Kemba (52%), his brother (57%), Trae (54%) are all worse.

The volume certainly isn't there, but if he was attacking the rim often & successfully he wouldn't be in a Bulls uniform. He'd be on a big contract somewhere.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#72 » by Nucky Thompson » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:17 pm

Elite defense at point guard and 44% from 3? If you told me this before we signed him I would have ran to the bank with that.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#73 » by GoBlue72391 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:17 pm

kodo wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:I've been harping on it a lot lately, but is Zo the worst finisher amongst starting PGs? He's got to be up there.


Don't think so, he's 61% near the rim, that's close to what Beal is averaging (62%).
Kemba (52%), his brother (57%), Trae (54%) are all worse.

The volume certainly isn't there, but if he was attacking the rim often & successfully he wouldn't be in a Bulls uniform. He'd be on a big contract somewhere.

I'm not sure what constitutes at-rim attempts, though it presumably includes dunks. What confuses me is that Zo has 26 lay-up attempts this season, but only 23 at-rim attempts. If you limit it to only lay-ups, Lonzo is at 42% (11-26). Any way you look at it, that is awful. For comparison, Beal is at 54%, Trae 52%, and LaMelo 47%. Of the players you mentioned, only Kemba is worse on layups at 39% (9-23).

I crunched the numbers, and amongst starting PGs Zo is tied for the 4th lowest percentage on lay-up attempts, ahead of Kemba, Jrue Holiday, Killian Hayes, and tied with Kevin Porter Jr. For at-rim percentage, Zo ranks middle of the pack at 15th. Keep in mind his percentage on these shots is higher than the likes of James Harden, Damian Lillard, and Russell Westbrook and equal with De'Aaron Fox. They're all vastly superior finishers than him, but their percentages are lower due to a combination of much higher volume + a poor start to the season for most of them.

Given that, I think it's fair to say that Zo is among the worst starting PGs at finishing at the rim. Maybe not the worst, but somewhere between 3rd worst and 10th worst depending on much value you put on lay-up attempts compared to at-rim attempts.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#74 » by meekrab » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:25 pm

Read on Twitter


Sizable caveat, given that centers routinely destroy every other position in terms of defensive impact, but that's damn impressive considering two of the three were considered massive defensive liabilities just last season.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#75 » by FriedRise » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:52 pm

I learned something new today. I didn't know TS% can go above 100%.

But here we are

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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#76 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:59 pm

Gonna be interesting to see what happens with that pull up jumper. He's clearly made it a priority to develop it.

On the one hand he'd be so much more efficient if he took it out of his diet entirely.

On the other he's just 24 and I understand wanting to expand his game.

Personally, I'd like to see him learn to aggressively move off ball like the sharpshooter he is. Study Klay tape and emulate it (obv he's not Klay). That skillset is sorely missing from our offense. Throw in some smart cuts to the basket and he could make a meal of those looks alone.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#77 » by Little Nathan » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:20 pm

FriedRise wrote:I learned something new today. I didn't know TS% can go above 100%.

But here we are

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Offensive rating of 153 is pretty solid as well.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#78 » by madvillian » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:25 pm

His jumper is absolutely wet on catch and shoot and even sometimes off the dribble. What insane improvement from when he came into the league, it honestly boggles the mind. If it was that easy every guy with a **** release would fix it in 3-4 years and not only has he improved he's arguably an elite catch and shoot guy now on good volume.
dumbell78 wrote:Random comment....Mikal Bridges stroke is dripping right now in summer league. Carry on.


I'll go ahead and make a sig bet that Mikal is better by RPM this year than Zach.
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#79 » by Bullflip » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:59 pm

madvillian wrote:His jumper is absolutely wet on catch and shoot and even sometimes off the dribble. What insane improvement from when he came into the league, it honestly boggles the mind. If it was that easy every guy with a **** release would fix it in 3-4 years and not only has he improved he's arguably an elite catch and shoot guy now on good volume.



It is definitely clear that Lonzo Ball has worked hard on his jumper. I remember when he first came into league, he was never as good of a shooter as he is now. He is still streaky as hell but much improved. Just shows what a waste of talent Ben Simmons is. If he improved his jump shot like Lonzo, Simmons could easily be one of the top 2-3 guys in league
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Re: Lonzo Ball discussion thread 

Post#80 » by Ice Man » Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:06 pm

Bullflip wrote:\It is definitely clear that Lonzo Ball has worked hard on his jumper.


He has, but he also must have a good deal of innate shooting talent that was hidden behind bad mechanics. Because a lot of NBA guys who can't shoot well spend a whole lot of time trying to fix that problem, but rarely do they do so as successfully as Lonzo has been able to do.

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