Image ImageImage Image

Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games)

Moderators: HomoSapien, GimmeDat, Michael Jackson, Payt10, dougthonus, kulaz3000, Tommy Udo 6 , Ice Man, DASMACKDOWN, fleet, coldfish, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper

User avatar
Jvaughn
RealGM
Posts: 26,088
And1: 3,414
Joined: May 18, 2009
   

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#201 » by Jvaughn » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:51 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:Need him back asap because Bradley is just a step up above Felicio. Pretty useless.


What happened to the people that wanted to start Bradley over Vuc? :crazy:

I think Bradley is one of those guys who is pretty good coming off the bench, but for whatever reason is totally in over his head as a starter. He's looked like two totally different players: Bench Bradley and Starter Bradley. He's a guy who can contribute in a 10-15 minute role but gets exposed as a starter. Same for Green, though to a lesser extent.


Yeah, it seems like they play very anxious and nervous when they start, but when they know their time is limited and they need to give energy, they play more free.
spearsy23 wrote:Kobe is a low percentage chucker just like Jennings, he's just better at it.


teamCHItown wrote:Now we have threads on what violent felons think of our Bulls. Great. Next up, OJ Simpson's take on a possible Taj Gibson extension.
meekrab
Head Coach
Posts: 7,328
And1: 4,749
Joined: Dec 15, 2014

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#202 » by meekrab » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:05 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
What happened to the people that wanted to start Bradley over Vuc? :crazy:

I think Bradley is one of those guys who is pretty good coming off the bench, but for whatever reason is totally in over his head as a starter. He's looked like two totally different players: Bench Bradley and Starter Bradley. He's a guy who can contribute in a 10-15 minute role but gets exposed as a starter. Same for Green, though to a lesser extent.


Yeah, it seems like they play very anxious and nervous when they start, but when they know their time is limited and they need to give energy, they play more free.

Funny enough, his stats say the opposite, though he still doesn't play "starter's minutes" even as a starter and it's only 15 games.

Image
GoBlue72391
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,834
And1: 2,198
Joined: Oct 26, 2009
     

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#203 » by GoBlue72391 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:46 pm

meekrab wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:I think Bradley is one of those guys who is pretty good coming off the bench, but for whatever reason is totally in over his head as a starter. He's looked like two totally different players: Bench Bradley and Starter Bradley. He's a guy who can contribute in a 10-15 minute role but gets exposed as a starter. Same for Green, though to a lesser extent.


Yeah, it seems like they play very anxious and nervous when they start, but when they know their time is limited and they need to give energy, they play more free.

Funny enough, his stats say the opposite, though he still doesn't play "starter's minutes" even as a starter and it's only 15 games.

Image

Actually if you use per 36-minute stats to make up for the difference in playing time between starting (21.5 MPG) and coming off the bench (10 MPG), he's actually been much better coming off the bench as opposed to starting. Keep in mind, these numbers are only for this season, not his career.

Per 36 stats as a starter
PPG: 7.9
RPG: 9.6
APG: 0.8
SPG: 0.4
BPG: 0.8
TS%: 48

Per 36 stats as a reserve
PPG: 8.1
RPG: 13.9
APG: 1.3
SPG: 0
BPG: 3.6
TS%: 50

So as you can see, he's been better in literally every category coming off the bench than he has starting (except for SPG).
sco
RealGM
Posts: 18,761
And1: 5,641
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#204 » by sco » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:17 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
meekrab wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
Yeah, it seems like they play very anxious and nervous when they start, but when they know their time is limited and they need to give energy, they play more free.

Funny enough, his stats say the opposite, though he still doesn't play "starter's minutes" even as a starter and it's only 15 games.

Image

Actually if you use per 36-minute stats to make up for the difference in playing time between starting (21.5 MPG) and coming off the bench (10 MPG), he's actually been much better coming off the bench as opposed to starting. Keep in mind, these numbers are only for this season, not his career.

Per 36 stats as a starter
PPG: 7.9
RPG: 9.6
APG: 0.8
SPG: 0.4
BPG: 0.8
TS%: 48

Per 36 stats as a reserve
PPG: 8.1
RPG: 13.9
APG: 1.3
SPG: 0
BPG: 3.6
TS%: 50

So as you can see, he's been better in literally every category coming off the bench than he has starting (except for SPG).

If you factor in the level of competition (bench vs. starter), that would seem to account for the difference...i.e. he's about the same.
:clap:
dabig3
Pro Prospect
Posts: 873
And1: 86
Joined: Jul 05, 2006
     

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#205 » by dabig3 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:52 pm

It's also a different system when it's the bench mob vs the starters. Bradley cannot and should never play Vuc's role. But he's a great hustle guy and a solid enough defending big man off the bench that can give you 12-18 minutes of solid production.

Too bad the Bulls couldn't land some of the big men FAs like LaMarcus Aldridge, who'd probably be taking these starter minutes right now.
WindyCityBorn
RealGM
Posts: 17,099
And1: 8,886
Joined: Jun 26, 2014
     

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#206 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:55 pm

We need Vuc on Sunday. Period. We don’t lose that game against Portland with him inside.
User avatar
Michael Jackson
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 19,354
And1: 4,700
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#207 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:06 am

dabig3 wrote:It's also a different system when it's the bench mob vs the starters. Bradley cannot and should never play Vuc's role. But he's a great hustle guy and a solid enough defending big man off the bench that can give you 12-18 minutes of solid production.

Too bad the Bulls couldn't land some of the big men FAs like LaMarcus Aldridge, who'd probably be taking these starter minutes right now.



Well they tried but no one outside of the Bulls believed they would be this good. In retrospect guys like Aldridge or Milsap might have signed here if they knew that this team would be this solid. I can't blame them at the moment though.
RagingBull316
Pro Prospect
Posts: 850
And1: 635
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Contact:

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#208 » by RagingBull316 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:15 pm

Anyone else worried that Vuc is going to miss at least another week? Embiid and Markkanen both went into protocol before Vuc and still aren't back yet. The last update I saw on Vuc is that he was still testing positive and hasn't yet moved onto the next step before he can return.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 18,761
And1: 5,641
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#209 » by sco » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:36 pm

RagingBull316 wrote:Anyone else worried that Vuc is going to miss at least another week? Embiid and Markkanen both went into protocol before Vuc and still aren't back yet. The last update I saw on Vuc is that he was still testing positive and hasn't yet moved onto the next step before he can return.

Me too. But I'll be optimistic it's not too long and he comes back healthy.
:clap:
Wingy
RealGM
Posts: 10,173
And1: 1,846
Joined: Feb 15, 2007

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#210 » by Wingy » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:45 pm

Vuc is fine, and covid was just a ruse. He went on a relaxing jump shooting retreat up in the mountains to unplug, and clear his head.
kodo
RealGM
Posts: 15,614
And1: 10,438
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Location: Northshore Burbs

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#211 » by kodo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:52 pm

RagingBull316 wrote:Anyone else worried that Vuc is going to miss at least another week? Embiid and Markkanen both went into protocol before Vuc and still aren't back yet. The last update I saw on Vuc is that he was still testing positive and hasn't yet moved onto the next step before he can return.


Yes. Thybulle is playable now, he missed 15 days. So I don't think Vuc will be out a long period but he may not be there Sunday for us.
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 54,406
And1: 26,587
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#212 » by coldfish » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:21 pm

RagingBull316 wrote:Anyone else worried that Vuc is going to miss at least another week? Embiid and Markkanen both went into protocol before Vuc and still aren't back yet. The last update I saw on Vuc is that he was still testing positive and hasn't yet moved onto the next step before he can return.


Yeah, definitely concerned. His conditioning may be an issue coming back too.
dabig3
Pro Prospect
Posts: 873
And1: 86
Joined: Jul 05, 2006
     

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#213 » by dabig3 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:45 pm

Would've been nice to have him on this B2B seeing as the team has to be already tired of this gauntlet.

But as long as he's ready to go by next Saturday for that Heat game, then it's all good. Teams before that are either trash or struggling, so Bulls should still get by without Vuc for a little bit more.
User avatar
umfan83
RealGM
Posts: 17,673
And1: 1,789
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Summertime Chi
         

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#214 » by umfan83 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:51 pm

dabig3 wrote:Would've been nice to have him on this B2B seeing as the team has to be already tired of this gauntlet.

But as long as he's ready to go by next Saturday for that Heat game, then it's all good. Teams before that are either trash or struggling, so Bulls should still get by without Vuc for a little bit more.


Yeah and the schedule is not getting easier in terms of wear and tear. Bulls have 5 games over the next 7 days.

They will have gone basically a month between having 2 straight off days
RealGM Bulls Board veteran of the following failed epic battles:
-Kobe (2008)
-Amare (2009)
-Bosh (2010 trade deadline and FA)
-LeBron (2010)
-Wade (2010)
-Melo (2014)
sco
RealGM
Posts: 18,761
And1: 5,641
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#215 » by sco » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:13 am

Read on Twitter
:clap:
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 51,227
And1: 11,239
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#216 » by dougthonus » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:24 am

Just to move this to the right thread...

coldfish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.


I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.


Okay. I mean, I don't recall that happening in a way that landed on he has a bad attitude and is selfish. Nor in a few google searches could I find any such thing. I mean I don't want you to waste your time searching over triviality discussions like this either, but I really don't recall anything like that at all.

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.


Nope. The Bulls were on the tank treadmill and had been so for years. The Vucevic move was what got the team off that treadmill which lead to Ball, Caruso and Derozan, all of which had other teams pursuing them.


Don't think you needed Vuc to get any of those guys. Ball wanted the Chicago market, the Bulls offered DeRozan something like 70M more than the next best known offer.

I would gladly trade Wendell, Franz Wagner and a late 1st to get off that treadmill.


Sure, so would I if that were true. I don't even remotely believe that this is a reasonable equation you've put together.

That's a strawman. I very specifically said "no one saw him becoming an elite outside shooter". If you did, quote yourself. We both know you didn't. Don't make my point something other than what it was.


If your point is that it was clear Wendell had a good chance to improve a lot, but just not clear he would do so by shooting, then sure I agree.

I believed in Wendell in a general sense because a young guy that was viewed as a good potential two way player that missed multiple off-seasons and tons of time to injury still had a very good chance to improve relative to a normal player at his age. I didn't predict specifically which way that would take place, but it isn't shocking to me that would have improved shooting nor that he improved at all.

I was a Wendell fan early in his career and I saw his potential but it was clear that the tank treadmill was destroying his attitude and derailing his career. As long as he stayed on Chicago in the environment that existed, he was never going to amount to much.


Maybe, maybe not. It's unknowable and unprovable either way. I don't see it that way though. Lots of teams that are bad can get better without shipping out nearly every single player on the roster. They were going to have huge turnover regardless. I don't think keeping WCJ vs Coby, as an example, was going to move the needle on whether the culture got better.

Maybe this is all true. I'm not in the locker room. Maybe Carter was a selfish prick or a mope or a guy whom had a bad vibe or some other thing that required he specifically leave. I've not really seen any indication of that though.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
WindyCityBorn
RealGM
Posts: 17,099
And1: 8,886
Joined: Jun 26, 2014
     

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#217 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:45 am

dougthonus wrote:Just to move this to the right thread...

coldfish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.


I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.


Okay. I mean, I don't recall that happening in a way that landed on he has a bad attitude and is selfish. Nor in a few google searches could I find any such thing. I mean I don't want you to waste your time searching over triviality discussions like this either, but I really don't recall anything like that at all.

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.


Nope. The Bulls were on the tank treadmill and had been so for years. The Vucevic move was what got the team off that treadmill which lead to Ball, Caruso and Derozan, all of which had other teams pursuing them.


Don't think you needed Vuc to get any of those guys. Ball wanted the Chicago market, the Bulls offered DeRozan something like 70M more than the next best known offer.

I would gladly trade Wendell, Franz Wagner and a late 1st to get off that treadmill.


Sure, so would I if that were true. I don't even remotely believe that this is a reasonable equation you've put together.

That's a strawman. I very specifically said "no one saw him becoming an elite outside shooter". If you did, quote yourself. We both know you didn't. Don't make my point something other than what it was.


If your point is that it was clear Wendell had a good chance to improve a lot, but just not clear he would do so by shooting, then sure I agree.

I believed in Wendell in a general sense because a young guy that was viewed as a good potential two way player that missed multiple off-seasons and tons of time to injury still had a very good chance to improve relative to a normal player at his age. I didn't predict specifically which way that would take place, but it isn't shocking to me that would have improved shooting nor that he improved at all.

I was a Wendell fan early in his career and I saw his potential but it was clear that the tank treadmill was destroying his attitude and derailing his career. As long as he stayed on Chicago in the environment that existed, he was never going to amount to much.


Maybe, maybe not. It's unknowable and unprovable either way. I don't see it that way though. Lots of teams that are bad can get better without shipping out nearly every single player on the roster. They were going to have huge turnover regardless. I don't think keeping WCJ vs Coby, as an example, was going to move the needle on whether the culture got better.

Maybe this is all true. I'm not in the locker room. Maybe Carter was a selfish prick or a mope or a guy whom had a bad vibe or some other thing that required he specifically leave. I've not really seen any indication of that though.


I’m lost are you saying you would rather have Carter than Vuc? Because that would be insane for the current makeup of this team.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 51,227
And1: 11,239
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#218 » by dougthonus » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:16 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:I’m lost are you saying you would rather have Carter than Vuc? Because that would be insane for the current makeup of this team.


I said I wouldn't have done this trade (even today). I also realize that's a minority opinion.

As I stated in the other thread, a combination of:
1: Believing in Vuc much less than other people
2: Believing in WCJ much more than other people
3: Being more averse than most towards trading draft picks
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
sco
RealGM
Posts: 18,761
And1: 5,641
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#219 » by sco » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:36 pm

:clap:
jordanwilliams6
Pro Prospect
Posts: 958
And1: 834
Joined: Nov 01, 2018
 

Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#220 » by jordanwilliams6 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:44 pm

I expect Vuc to probably struggle for a few games and be on a reduced minute allocation. Sounds like he had a decent bout of Covid so I expect his conditioning to be well off for a while.

Return to Chicago Bulls