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Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games)

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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#241 » by dougthonus » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:29 pm

coldfish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.


I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.


Based on all the news and discussion in the game, it seems Carter and LaVine are still quite close and doesn't seem like a guy that had attitude problems.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#242 » by coldfish » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:46 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.


I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.


Based on all the news and discussion in the game, it seems Carter and LaVine are still quite close and doesn't seem like a guy that had attitude problems.


Ugh

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

That was just the tip of the iceberg. This wasn't just some happy one off. He was passive aggressively bitching about Markkanen publicly. He would clearly mope on the floor when things didn't go his way and it was discussed here at length.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#243 » by dougthonus » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:49 pm

coldfish wrote:Ugh

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

That was just the tip of the iceberg. This wasn't just some happy one off. He was passive aggressively bitching about Markkanen publicly. He would clearly mope on the floor when things didn't go his way and it was discussed here at length.


The tip of the iceberg? He asked if he can play powerforward but said he's going to try and make it work where he is? The fact that he thought he should be used differently the basketball court, will talk to the coach about it, but will try to make it work is not a bad attitude.

If he was a bad attitude in the locker room, its unlikely he'd have a good relationship with Zach and stay in touch with him after getting traded.

It's fine, I don't really care to get into a protracted debate about it. Just saying, he was apparently good friends with Zach, the idea that we needed him off the team explicitly doesn't seem overly likely based on that.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#244 » by sco » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:15 pm

dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Got pretty outplayed by the Rockets centers be it Wood or Sengun while on the floor. Did some things that looked okay, had the same problems as earlier in the year, just couldn't finish his looks.

Sure, but both of those guys are pretty capable perimeter and at the rim scorers. Vuc's gonna struggle most nights against those sorts of match-ups.


Is Wendel Carter Jr, the guy we traded to get Vuc (along with 2 1sts) also the type of guy that Vuc is going to struggle with?

At least we got the win.

Not sure how much (if at all) that his COVID is a factor, but another game another domination by the opposing center.

I have to admit that I am surprised that WCJ has found his 3pt range in such a big way, which has really opened up his game. Would I have done the trade knowing this now...of course not. I really like Wagner as a glue guy.

That said, I think our big 3 are still trying to find their fit with one another. All 3 are passing up good shots for themselves that they should be taking...especially Vuc. IMO, in his case he still lacks confidence. If we didn't do the trade, we'd still have needed another scorer to be a viable team (that's not to say we wouldn't have the $ to get one), but neither Wagner nor Carter are scorers.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#245 » by dougthonus » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:56 pm

sco wrote:That said, I think our big 3 are still trying to find their fit with one another. All 3 are passing up good shots for themselves that they should be taking...especially Vuc. IMO, in his case he still lacks confidence.


I agree completely that the big three have not really found their groove together yet. DeMar/Zach occasionally busted out a sick pick and roll together, both have worked the pick and roll okay with Vuc at times, but that play isn't super effective right now because Vuc hasn't been able to take care of his scoring responsibilities in it even if the play has yielded good looks.

If we didn't do the trade, we'd still have needed another scorer to be a viable team (that's not to say we wouldn't have the $ to get one), but neither Wagner nor Carter are scorers.


If Vuc doesn't get himself back to his typical numbers, then he isn't filling that role either. His present 13.8 points on 14.3 shots is not filling that void at all.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#246 » by sco » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:50 pm

dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:That said, I think our big 3 are still trying to find their fit with one another. All 3 are passing up good shots for themselves that they should be taking...especially Vuc. IMO, in his case he still lacks confidence.


I agree completely that the big three have not really found their groove together yet. DeMar/Zach occasionally busted out a sick pick and roll together, both have worked the pick and roll okay with Vuc at times, but that play isn't super effective right now because Vuc hasn't been able to take care of his scoring responsibilities in it even if the play has yielded good looks.

If we didn't do the trade, we'd still have needed another scorer to be a viable team (that's not to say we wouldn't have the $ to get one), but neither Wagner nor Carter are scorers.


If Vuc doesn't get himself back to his typical numbers, then he isn't filling that role either. His present 13.8 points on 14.3 shots is not filling that void at all.

I expect that Vuc's offense will improve to maybe 16 points on 13 shots per game. It's trending in that direction. It is hard for teams to get 3 guys scoring at decent levels with decent efficiency. If somehow, they can also get Coby scoring in 12-14ppg level, it would be amazing (and very rare).
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#247 » by MrSparkle » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:39 pm

Still think the system is the biggest shock to Vuc’s game. He’s not getting 28% usage anymore (more usage equals more shooting comfort, for most players anyway), and he’s tasked with a lot of defensive and rebounding responsibility (and high expectations), compounded with Pat’s injury. His FT% is significantly down (62% vs. ballpark 84% the prior 2 seasons). That’s not something that usually trends down for an aging player, so I still hope it’s just a matter of getting comfortable.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#248 » by kodo » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:39 pm

I don't think it's as simple as we would just rather rewind the Vuc trade. Without the Vuc trade, we may not go after Lonzo / get a worse Lonzo IMO because Vuc's role in Chicago is to start the offense in the half court while Lonzo takes his preferred role as a shooter. We either go after a more standard PG to run the offense (Dennis Schroder), or Lonzo tries to run the half court offense and looks like he did in New Orleans and doesn't become the sniper he is in Chicago. And expending that much energy on offense he isn't going to be as good on defense.

Assuming we do get Lonzo anyway, without anyone to run the half court we perhaps don't trade Thad Young for Derozan. Derozan also said the primary guy recruiting him was Vucevic. Without Vuc there's a solid chance that Derozan isn't in Chicago and we go for someone else.

The team could look significantly different without Vuc, as AK clearly had a plan in mind and there really aren't good alternatives. Jokic isn't attainable.

I'm more interested why a 31 year old veteran is having his worse statistical year since 2012. Covid is probably a contributing factor. But he shot 87% from the FT line last season, this season he's shooting 62%. Last night he went 1 for 5 from the FT line and celebrated when 1 finally went down. He shoots FTs worse than Ben Simmons now? Something is going on.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#249 » by MrSparkle » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:57 pm

kodo wrote:I don't think it's as simple as we would just rather rewind the Vuc trade. Without the Vuc trade, we may not go after Lonzo / get a worse Lonzo IMO because Vuc's role in Chicago is to start the offense in the half court while Lonzo takes his preferred role as a shooter. We either go after a more standard PG to run the offense (Dennis Schroder), or Lonzo tries to run the half court offense and looks like he did in New Orleans and doesn't become the sniper he is in Chicago. And expending that much energy on offense he isn't going to be as good on defense.

Assuming we do get Lonzo anyway, without anyone to run the half court we perhaps don't trade Thad Young for Derozan. Derozan also said the primary guy recruiting him was Vucevic. Without Vuc there's a solid chance that Derozan isn't in Chicago and we go for someone else.

The team could look significantly different without Vuc, as AK clearly had a plan in mind and there really aren't good alternatives. Jokic isn't attainable.

I'm more interested why a 31 year old veteran is having his worse statistical year since 2012. Covid is probably a contributing factor. But he shot 87% from the FT line last season, this season he's shooting 62%. Last night he went 1 for 5 from the FT line and celebrated when 1 finally went down. He shoots FTs worse than Ben Simmons now? Something is going on.


Yeah - very bizarre. He’s struggled insanely with his shooting touch. He was absolutely automatic in last season, and even prior years watching the occasional Orlando playoff game.

Wouldn’t be the first time a talented shooter came to Chicago and got irrationally cold: McDermott, Korver, Niko, Coby.

Thank goodness Lonzo, Zach and Demar are confident.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#250 » by sco » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:00 pm

kodo wrote:I don't think it's as simple as we would just rather rewind the Vuc trade. Without the Vuc trade, we may not go after Lonzo / get a worse Lonzo IMO because Vuc's role in Chicago is to start the offense in the half court while Lonzo takes his preferred role as a shooter. We either go after a more standard PG to run the offense (Dennis Schroder), or Lonzo tries to run the half court offense and looks like he did in New Orleans and doesn't become the sniper he is in Chicago. And expending that much energy on offense he isn't going to be as good on defense.

Assuming we do get Lonzo anyway, without anyone to run the half court we perhaps don't trade Thad Young for Derozan. Derozan also said the primary guy recruiting him was Vucevic. Without Vuc there's a solid chance that Derozan isn't in Chicago and we go for someone else.

The team could look significantly different without Vuc, as AK clearly had a plan in mind and there really aren't good alternatives. Jokic isn't attainable.

I'm more interested why a 31 year old veteran is having his worse statistical year since 2012. Covid is probably a contributing factor. But he shot 87% from the FT line last season, this season he's shooting 62%. Last night he went 1 for 5 from the FT line and celebrated when 1 finally went down. He shoots FTs worse than Ben Simmons now? Something is going on.

My thinking is that we would have gotten Ball, with or without Vuc. Derozan is an interesting question. I'm pretty sure we would have nabbed him with the $ we were offering anyway.

The question is who we could have gotten with the trade assets we gave up for Vuc, if not Vuc. The obvious one is Simmons. That said, I'm not sure Simmons is a great fit with DD and Ball.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#251 » by MrSparkle » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:08 pm

My concern with not getting Vuc (and likely Demar), is that Lonzo and Zach on their own don’t do much for us. Would kind of remind me of a young Arenas/Beal or CJ/Lillard squad; good backcourt and nothing much else but replaceable players and projects.

I like the over-the-top additions - Vuc triggered the domino. After all that, clearly still not enough to dominate the weaker (at top) NBA. It is very hard to go from bottom dwellers to top-5 NBA squad, without a superstar. Lebron and Durant hacked the NBA with their FA hopping. But in general, look at LAC’s cost of getting PG13, and LAL’s cost for Davis.

Phoenix and Atlanta drafted pretty well over a 5-year timespan (though both ironically could’ve largely had their stacked situations with Luka on-board). GarPax drafted and traded poorly for 7 years. After AKME joined… We were in position to start drafting well for 3-5 years. Just didn’t seem like a plausible plan for Chicago- Kings/Wolves territory.

Wendell and Franz will have to make unbelievable jumps in their games to make me regret the whole timeline. Anything could happen; certainly in their favor that both have played well on two-ends. But there’s a difference between ‘solid’/promising tank-job players and very good 1st option for a fringe playoff team.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#252 » by FriedRise » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:28 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
kodo wrote:I don't think it's as simple as we would just rather rewind the Vuc trade. Without the Vuc trade, we may not go after Lonzo / get a worse Lonzo IMO because Vuc's role in Chicago is to start the offense in the half court while Lonzo takes his preferred role as a shooter. We either go after a more standard PG to run the offense (Dennis Schroder), or Lonzo tries to run the half court offense and looks like he did in New Orleans and doesn't become the sniper he is in Chicago. And expending that much energy on offense he isn't going to be as good on defense.

Assuming we do get Lonzo anyway, without anyone to run the half court we perhaps don't trade Thad Young for Derozan. Derozan also said the primary guy recruiting him was Vucevic. Without Vuc there's a solid chance that Derozan isn't in Chicago and we go for someone else.

The team could look significantly different without Vuc, as AK clearly had a plan in mind and there really aren't good alternatives. Jokic isn't attainable.

I'm more interested why a 31 year old veteran is having his worse statistical year since 2012. Covid is probably a contributing factor. But he shot 87% from the FT line last season, this season he's shooting 62%. Last night he went 1 for 5 from the FT line and celebrated when 1 finally went down. He shoots FTs worse than Ben Simmons now? Something is going on.


Yeah - very bizarre. He’s struggled insanely with his shooting touch. He was absolutely automatic in last season, and even prior years watching the occasional Orlando playoff game.

Wouldn’t be the first time a talented shooter came to Chicago and got irrationally cold: McDermott, Korver, Niko, Coby.

Thank goodness Lonzo, Zach and Demar are confident.


I think he’s used to being a finisher/scorer. When that’s all you need to do, the game becomes much simpler (his Orlando role, post-trade/no practice Bulls role).

This year he’s needed to be a playmaker like Thadgic was so his role has significantly been expanded. A lot more thinking involved where he now has to survey the floor, read the defense (and not just his defender), and make the right decision rather than just simply getting to his spots and finishing plays.

He’s doing all of that really well as evidenced by what we looked like when he was out, but something has to give; his scoring had to take a back seat - and hopefully just for now.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#253 » by dougthonus » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:56 pm

sco wrote:I expect that Vuc's offense will improve to maybe 16 points on 13 shots per game. It's trending in that direction. It is hard for teams to get 3 guys scoring at decent levels with decent efficiency. If somehow, they can also get Coby scoring in 12-14ppg level, it would be amazing (and very rare).


I don't care much about the PPG at all really.

I want him to score efficiently on all the open looks that he gets. 38%+ from 3, dominate mismatches in the post when they occur, beat up on weak centers. If he averaged 16-17 but had a TS% of 60% that's about what I think he should do. If he could average 15 with a TS% of 55% it'd still probably be pretty pedestrian and wouldn't change my mind about this deal being a mistake, but I'd take it relative to what he's giving you now and it would help the team considerably.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#254 » by Axl Rose » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:11 pm

Carter needed to be traded, even with a new coach he was still stuck in the mud here.

I'm actually happy that has been able to shake the Boylen stink off.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#255 » by logical_art » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:21 am

Vuc doesn't appear to be a winning basketball player. You can't be a lazy, slow footed and soft defender at the C position and play big minutes. Vuc is all of that.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#256 » by chefo » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:52 am

Watching Vuc this year is like some "Twilight Zone" episode where the Bulls' starting C enters a warp in the time-space continuum where a repeating loop occurs that makes them all suck really bad. Vuc this year is as bad or worse than WCJ was last year, having the exact--and I mean exact--same issues--can't buy a bucket, rebounds well, not much of a difference on D.

The problem is not the FO chose Vuc, per say. Vuc from any of the last 5 years makes this team incredibly dangerous. The problem is, based on 25 odd games, the FO last year gave up on WCJ, Lauri and Gafford.

* Gafford is arguably one of the best and most productive backup bigs in the entire NBA ever since he got traded. Given that we're rolling with a 6'7 stick of a man as the backup "C", and Bradley is just a big meh, it sure would have helped to have Daniel still in a Bulls jersey.

* WCJ is the same player he was on the Bulls, except he obviously spent the summer shooting rather than pouting and it shows. He still doesn't move the needle on D that much, and that's with playing next to Bamba, but at least he's a serviceable player now that he remembered he doesn't need to have a heart attack when left open 15 feet and out.

* Lauri started the year in some alternate reality where he played stellar D at the 3, but couldn't buy a bucket to save his life... but, over the last 4, he's averaging 19/8 (sound familiar?) and he's still not shooting great, while their big lineup, when playing together, seems to give all kinds of teams problems on O.

Here's the worst part--all three of these guys are immensely better fit for the D (organized chaos) the Bulls try to play than a slow-footed guy like Vuc.

Man, watching Vuc struggle as bad as he is struggling, missing 3 foot bunnies over guys half a foot shorter than him, unable to buy a bucket from deep, hesitating to pull the trigger when wide open... I've watched plenty of Vuc in Orlando, and he's just not the same player. I don't ever recall him hesitating on pulling the trigger--if anything, he was often accused of having blinders and bombing away too much.

It would really suck if Vuc for whatever reason turns into a 15/10/3 guy on 55% TS because he did cost WCJ, 2 1sts and Lauri indirectly (I think it's pretty obvious that the FO decided they'd only pay one tall Euro dude and Vuc was a proven 24/10 guy coming in) and so Lauri did not fit the picture of what they were trying to build, it seemed.

But darn... if WCJ, Gafford and Lauri continue on their most recent trends, and Vuc does NOT revert to his old self, that whole sequence may turn out to be one colossal F@k up on the FO's part.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#257 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:11 am

chefo wrote:
But darn... if WCJ, Gafford and Lauri continue on their most recent trends, and Vuc does NOT revert to his old self, that whole sequence may turn out to be one colossal F@k up on the FO's part.


In a vaccum sure. But thats not the reality though. The guys you are talking about got paid 40/50/67m

So its not reality really. No way we would have had Caruso, Demar and Zo while also still having those guys.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#258 » by Jcool0 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:14 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
chefo wrote:
But darn... if WCJ, Gafford and Lauri continue on their most recent trends, and Vuc does NOT revert to his old self, that whole sequence may turn out to be one colossal F@k up on the FO's part.


In a vaccum sure. But thats not the reality though. The guys you are talking about got paid 40/50/67m

So its not reality really. No way we would have had Caruso, Demar and Zo while also still having those guys.


I can imagine just how unreadable this board would be right now if we had payed Gafford, WCJ and Lauri....
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#259 » by Just_Bullz » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:21 am

Other than Joakim and Gasol, which big has been doing us proud in recent years? Can't win all battles folks.
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Re: Vuc in Health and Safety Protocol (Shams: Will be out 10 days/6 games) 

Post#260 » by chefo » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:34 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
chefo wrote:
But darn... if WCJ, Gafford and Lauri continue on their most recent trends, and Vuc does NOT revert to his old self, that whole sequence may turn out to be one colossal F@k up on the FO's part.


In a vaccum sure. But thats not the reality though. The guys you are talking about got paid 40/50/67m

So its not reality really. No way we would have had Caruso, Demar and Zo while also still having those guys.


I mean, over time, sure, valid point. But Vuc and TBJ make what? 30M this year. Add DJJ at 10, and that's 40. Yeah, I know it's ST money versus LT money, but if Lauri puts up 18/8 on a season, or WCJ 13/10 on 40% shooting from 3, or Gafford has a 21 PER in 20 min/game, each of these guys are net positive assets that will likely return something of value, if $ gets tight. So, sure you can have 2/3 or even 3/3 and still have Caruso, Ball and DD.

I don't care for the Bulls in 2024, or about the luxury tax when on a normal season with fans in the stands they make north of $100M from operations. This year, with 20/20 hindsight of course, last year's moves look like complete disasters. AKME seem to have caught the 'rookie' trader bug of doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff and see if anything sticks. They may have redeemed themselves with the Ball, Caruso, and DD signings (remains to be seen), but last year's flurry of trades actually seem to have made the team worse off. Of course they had no idea that a creature like this year's Vuc even existed, but still...

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