How good can Ayo be? Ayo Thread

[gobullschi]

Zach is the one who should go.

I think we're going to see a hard Ewing theory with Zach in knee recovery. I think Zach has played a part in Vuc's ineffectiveness. I think Zach genuinely is unselfish, but his IQ and feel just aren't good enough to fit in with other good players. Compare how you feel when Ayo is dribbling the ball vs when Zach is dribbling. Aside from his awful handle and the possibility he'll simply lose the ball or get stripped, he takes terrible shots and stops the ball more than anyone on the team. His role right now should be Klay Thompson, but he feels the need to try to play like Demar. He takes terrible, out of rhythm shots (almost exclusively). I think he is self conscious about the pecking order and one of the affects is making Vuc uncomfortable.

I think you take Zach's 40 million a year and split it between Ayo and Coby. Start Ayo in Zach's place, Lonzo becomes a wing and Ayo runs point. Coby and Caruso off the bench. The only 2 bad defenders on the whole team would be DD and Vuc (idk how Coby became a good defender but he did.)

Ayo/Coby
Lonzo/Caruso
Demar/Tbj
Pat/DJJ
Vuc/Bradley

This team without Zach plays better defense and better offense imo. I've seen enough from Ayo, I think he's the starting PG and captain of the team until he retires. Zach has a surgically repaired knee, slow reactions, short arms, low adaptability, and no handles.

I'm aware this will never happen, but I wish it would.

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet. He's an excellent top tier scorer.... And not much else. I was hoping he'd take a step forward into become a bonafide star but instead we're still seeing the same bad habits. In fact it seems like he's more willing to take the bad shots now that he has a star rep.

He can still be a very valuable piece. The scorer that puts contenders over the top in talent. But he's not the main piece that makes a contender. I'd be fine with him on a value contract (as he is now) but I'm very hesitant to lock up massive cap space on him.

Now Zach is still young and is a hard worker but the mental aspect of it is very very hard to develop. DeMar is an excellent example. It's taken DD years to develop into a positive player (DD on the raptors is what Lavine is right now) and even then he's reverting back to bad habits when the going gets tough

[RagingBull316]

Zach is the one who should go.

I think we're going to see a hard Ewing theory with Zach in knee recovery. I think Zach has played a part in Vuc's ineffectiveness. I think Zach genuinely is unselfish, but his IQ and feel just aren't good enough to fit in with other good players. Compare how you feel when Ayo is dribbling the ball vs when Zach is dribbling. Aside from his awful handle and the possibility he'll simply lose the ball or get stripped, he takes terrible shots and stops the ball more than anyone on the team. His role right now should be Klay Thompson, but he feels the need to try to play like Demar. He takes terrible, out of rhythm shots (almost exclusively). I think he is self conscious about the pecking order and one of the affects is making Vuc uncomfortable.

I think you take Zach's 40 million a year and split it between Ayo and Coby. Start Ayo in Zach's place, Lonzo becomes a wing and Ayo runs point. Coby and Caruso off the bench. The only 2 bad defenders on the whole team would be DD and Vuc (idk how Coby became a good defender but he did.)

Ayo/Coby
Lonzo/Caruso
Demar/Tbj
Pat/DJJ
Vuc/Bradley

This team without Zach plays better defense and better offense imo. I've seen enough from Ayo, I think he's the starting PG and captain of the team until he retires. Zach has a surgically repaired knee, slow reactions, short arms, low adaptability, and no handles.

I'm aware this will never happen, but I wish it would.

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet. He's an excellent top tier scorer.... And not much else. I was hoping he'd take a step forward into become a bonafide star but instead we're still seeing the same bad habits. In fact it seems like he's more willing to take the bad shots now that he has a star rep.

He can still be a very valuable piece. The scorer that puts contenders over the top in talent. But he's not the main piece that makes a contender. I'd be fine with him on a value contract (as he is now) but I'm very hesitant to lock up massive cap space on him.

Now Zach is still young and is a hard worker but the mental aspect of it is very very hard to develop. DeMar is an excellent example. It's taken DD years to develop into a positive player (DD on the raptors is what Lavine is right now) and even then he's reverting back to bad habits when the going gets tough

You are coming around to Zach not deserving the Max? You have been trashing Zach for the past few years. How can you be coming around to it?

Hillarious the Zach hate comes after a 3 game losing streak, in which he hasn't played in a majority of the last 2 games.

I'd say I am surprised, but I actually expect it with some of the posters here, it's almost comical.

[Wingy]

It's still baffling that they gave trash ass Simonovic a 3 year deal but Ayo a 2 year deal. That's an absolute killer... Another team is definitely going to give him a 20m per year contract offer, and the Bulls will be in a bad spot because our ownership group is a bunch of cheap ****.

Luckily for us, other GMs aren’t from Chicago and aren’t Bulls fans. Ayo has been absolutely terrific relative to expectations, but he’s no $20MM player.

[step]

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet.

I think you are confused between a max contract and a supermax. The latter Zach can't qualify for.

[DuckIII]

Zach is the one who should go.

I think we're going to see a hard Ewing theory with Zach in knee recovery. I think Zach has played a part in Vuc's ineffectiveness. I think Zach genuinely is unselfish, but his IQ and feel just aren't good enough to fit in with other good players. Compare how you feel when Ayo is dribbling the ball vs when Zach is dribbling. Aside from his awful handle and the possibility he'll simply lose the ball or get stripped, he takes terrible shots and stops the ball more than anyone on the team. His role right now should be Klay Thompson, but he feels the need to try to play like Demar. He takes terrible, out of rhythm shots (almost exclusively). I think he is self conscious about the pecking order and one of the affects is making Vuc uncomfortable.

I think you take Zach's 40 million a year and split it between Ayo and Coby. Start Ayo in Zach's place, Lonzo becomes a wing and Ayo runs point. Coby and Caruso off the bench. The only 2 bad defenders on the whole team would be DD and Vuc (idk how Coby became a good defender but he did.)

Ayo/Coby
Lonzo/Caruso
Demar/Tbj
Pat/DJJ
Vuc/Bradley

This team without Zach plays better defense and better offense imo. I've seen enough from Ayo, I think he's the starting PG and captain of the team until he retires. Zach has a surgically repaired knee, slow reactions, short arms, low adaptability, and no handles.

I'm aware this will never happen, but I wish it would.

I shouldn’t happen because it is ridiculous.

Which part? Playing two Ayos - one at point guard and one at wing - along with Zo? Zach having Klay Thompson handles? Or just letting Zach walk, adding no one and nothing in return, and giving his $ to Coby and Ayo? Or making Ayo the team captain and point guard until he retires?

All sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[DuckIII]

It's still baffling that they gave trash ass Simonovic a 3 year deal but Ayo a 2 year deal. That's an absolute killer... Another team is definitely going to give him a 20m per year contract offer, and the Bulls will be in a bad spot because our ownership group is a bunch of cheap ****.

Luckily for us, other GMs aren’t from Chicago and aren’t Bulls fans. Ayo has been absolutely terrific relative to expectations, but he’s no $20MM player.

There’s no way he’ll even have the opportunity to earn that type of contract on this team, with this roster, in 2 years. The only way I could imagine that happening is if he ends up surpassing everyone on the bench, end up being a major minute 6th man, and comes close to carrying the Bulls in multiple games of a playoff series. Which, to put it mildly, is not likely.

I do worry about the organization not prioritizing him highly enough and letting him walk, though. It’s a concern.

[meekrab]

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet.

I think you are confused between a max contract and a supermax. The latter Zach can't qualify for.

He can, if he's voted to an All-NBA team this year he's eligible for the 35% max. (Or DPotY or MVP, but those won't happen unless something really strange happens in the 2nd half.)

[NecessaryEvil]

Zach is the one who should go.

I think we're going to see a hard Ewing theory with Zach in knee recovery. I think Zach has played a part in Vuc's ineffectiveness. I think Zach genuinely is unselfish, but his IQ and feel just aren't good enough to fit in with other good players. Compare how you feel when Ayo is dribbling the ball vs when Zach is dribbling. Aside from his awful handle and the possibility he'll simply lose the ball or get stripped, he takes terrible shots and stops the ball more than anyone on the team. His role right now should be Klay Thompson, but he feels the need to try to play like Demar. He takes terrible, out of rhythm shots (almost exclusively). I think he is self conscious about the pecking order and one of the affects is making Vuc uncomfortable.

I think you take Zach's 40 million a year and split it between Ayo and Coby. Start Ayo in Zach's place, Lonzo becomes a wing and Ayo runs point. Coby and Caruso off the bench. The only 2 bad defenders on the whole team would be DD and Vuc (idk how Coby became a good defender but he did.)

Ayo/Coby
Lonzo/Caruso
Demar/Tbj
Pat/DJJ
Vuc/Bradley

This team without Zach plays better defense and better offense imo. I've seen enough from Ayo, I think he's the starting PG and captain of the team until he retires. Zach has a surgically repaired knee, slow reactions, short arms, low adaptability, and no handles.

I'm aware this will never happen, but I wish it would.

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet. He's an excellent top tier scorer.... And not much else. I was hoping he'd take a step forward into become a bonafide star but instead we're still seeing the same bad habits. In fact it seems like he's more willing to take the bad shots now that he has a star rep.

He can still be a very valuable piece. The scorer that puts contenders over the top in talent. But he's not the main piece that makes a contender. I'd be fine with him on a value contract (as he is now) but I'm very hesitant to lock up massive cap space on him.

Now Zach is still young and is a hard worker but the mental aspect of it is very very hard to develop. DeMar is an excellent example. It's taken DD years to develop into a positive player (DD on the raptors is what Lavine is right now) and even then he's reverting back to bad habits when the going gets tough

[Wingy]

It's still baffling that they gave trash ass Simonovic a 3 year deal but Ayo a 2 year deal. That's an absolute killer... Another team is definitely going to give him a 20m per year contract offer, and the Bulls will be in a bad spot because our ownership group is a bunch of cheap ****.

Luckily for us, other GMs aren’t from Chicago and aren’t Bulls fans. Ayo has been absolutely terrific relative to expectations, but he’s no $20MM player.

There’s no way he’ll even have the opportunity to earn that type of contract on this team, with this roster, in 2 years. The only way I could imagine that happening is if he ends up surpassing everyone on the bench, end up being a major minute 6th man, and comes close to carrying the Bulls in multiple games of a playoff series. Which, to put it mildly, is not likely.

I do worry about the organization not prioritizing him highly enough and letting him walk, though. It’s a concern.

I gotta believe both sides will want to figure it out. Back to Bulls2021’s original point, has it ever been confirmed this was the Bulls choice?

I wouldn’t be surprised if it came from Ayo and his representation. Basically knowing he was a first round talent, and betting on himself in order to get paid earlier.

[PaKii94]

Zach is the one who should go.

I think we're going to see a hard Ewing theory with Zach in knee recovery. I think Zach has played a part in Vuc's ineffectiveness. I think Zach genuinely is unselfish, but his IQ and feel just aren't good enough to fit in with other good players. Compare how you feel when Ayo is dribbling the ball vs when Zach is dribbling. Aside from his awful handle and the possibility he'll simply lose the ball or get stripped, he takes terrible shots and stops the ball more than anyone on the team. His role right now should be Klay Thompson, but he feels the need to try to play like Demar. He takes terrible, out of rhythm shots (almost exclusively). I think he is self conscious about the pecking order and one of the affects is making Vuc uncomfortable.

I think you take Zach's 40 million a year and split it between Ayo and Coby. Start Ayo in Zach's place, Lonzo becomes a wing and Ayo runs point. Coby and Caruso off the bench. The only 2 bad defenders on the whole team would be DD and Vuc (idk how Coby became a good defender but he did.)

Ayo/Coby
Lonzo/Caruso
Demar/Tbj
Pat/DJJ
Vuc/Bradley

This team without Zach plays better defense and better offense imo. I've seen enough from Ayo, I think he's the starting PG and captain of the team until he retires. Zach has a surgically repaired knee, slow reactions, short arms, low adaptability, and no handles.

I'm aware this will never happen, but I wish it would.

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet. He's an excellent top tier scorer.... And not much else. I was hoping he'd take a step forward into become a bonafide star but instead we're still seeing the same bad habits. In fact it seems like he's more willing to take the bad shots now that he has a star rep.

He can still be a very valuable piece. The scorer that puts contenders over the top in talent. But he's not the main piece that makes a contender. I'd be fine with him on a value contract (as he is now) but I'm very hesitant to lock up massive cap space on him.

Now Zach is still young and is a hard worker but the mental aspect of it is very very hard to develop. DeMar is an excellent example. It's taken DD years to develop into a positive player (DD on the raptors is what Lavine is right now) and even then he's reverting back to bad habits when the going gets tough

You are coming around to Zach not deserving the Max? You have been trashing Zach for the past few years. How can you be coming around to it?

Hillarious the Zach hate comes after a 3 game losing streak, in which he hasn't played in a majority of the last 2 games.

I'd say I am surprised, but I actually expect it with some of the posters here, it's almost comical.

Supermax (which imo he was on track for). Max is fair value for him just for the raw scoring production. And Zach for sure deserved my criticism over the years. Just because he has improved immensely from the beginning doesn't mean previous criticism is invalidated. And just because he has improved to be a good player and an elite scorer doesn't mean I want to overcommit with super star money. That's a dead end.

First year he was an inefficient chucker but he got a pass since it was injury recovery on a tanking team.

Second year here he was an efficient scorer but a ball hog, bad defender, and bad basketball player. He was pretty much a turnover waiting to happen with any sort of pressure. He was pretty much the bad version of Coby with more scoring talent.

Boylen year he improved as a basketball player but still had problems in pressure situations. This was pretty much when he became a net neutral player minus crunch time situations.

Last year was the biggest leap to actual star value/positive player. He learned how to run a pick and roll. But it wasn't super star status. I remember specifically ONE game (against Dallas) where he played at a super star level on all facets of the game. I wasn't critical for him during this year.

This year is imo a step back because he hasn't taken a step forward. The scoring is still elite but I don't see him taking the step as a leader which is the next step in his game. He just has more talent around him to mask that. That's why DeMar easily took over the 1a role. And as OP said, I do think Zach's shot selection has gotten worse from last year. He might be trying to emulate DD but the mid range isn't his game

That's why I don't want him at the super max. I wanted to see the progression this year but hasn't happened Max is fine, and if you had cared to notice, no where did I say I want him gone anymore....

I've given him props many a times for his elite level scoring. It's the other deficiencies I want to see him improve in. The reason I'm so critical for him is A) I know he has the talent to be that type of player (super star) and B) he has a proven work ethic. I've said it from the beginning (even when I wanted him gone). Zach can compete for an MVP if he can get the mental aspect of the game developed. I don't want to overpay him before it happens though. Because if he doesn't take the next step that hampers the team.

[GimmeDat]

I like Ayo heaps. What a pick. But even that 21 and 10 game was not a function of any advanced creation or reads. He has been incredible at playing his role, making the right read, and executing based on what is asked of him, but I still don't see any advanced ability on the ball to be hyping him up to the extent that I think some people may be doing.

How on earth we're in 2022 and talking about trading Zach to start a 2nd round pick rookie is completely beyond me. This is a classic case of looking at the new shiny toy with rose coloured glasses.

[Wingy]

Zach is the one who should go.

I think we're going to see a hard Ewing theory with Zach in knee recovery. I think Zach has played a part in Vuc's ineffectiveness. I think Zach genuinely is unselfish, but his IQ and feel just aren't good enough to fit in with other good players. Compare how you feel when Ayo is dribbling the ball vs when Zach is dribbling. Aside from his awful handle and the possibility he'll simply lose the ball or get stripped, he takes terrible shots and stops the ball more than anyone on the team. His role right now should be Klay Thompson, but he feels the need to try to play like Demar. He takes terrible, out of rhythm shots (almost exclusively). I think he is self conscious about the pecking order and one of the affects is making Vuc uncomfortable.

I think you take Zach's 40 million a year and split it between Ayo and Coby. Start Ayo in Zach's place, Lonzo becomes a wing and Ayo runs point. Coby and Caruso off the bench. The only 2 bad defenders on the whole team would be DD and Vuc (idk how Coby became a good defender but he did.)

Ayo/Coby
Lonzo/Caruso
Demar/Tbj
Pat/DJJ
Vuc/Bradley

This team without Zach plays better defense and better offense imo. I've seen enough from Ayo, I think he's the starting PG and captain of the team until he retires. Zach has a surgically repaired knee, slow reactions, short arms, low adaptability, and no handles.

I'm aware this will never happen, but I wish it would.

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet. He's an excellent top tier scorer.... And not much else. I was hoping he'd take a step forward into become a bonafide star but instead we're still seeing the same bad habits. In fact it seems like he's more willing to take the bad shots now that he has a star rep.

He can still be a very valuable piece. The scorer that puts contenders over the top in talent. But he's not the main piece that makes a contender. I'd be fine with him on a value contract (as he is now) but I'm very hesitant to lock up massive cap space on him.

Now Zach is still young and is a hard worker but the mental aspect of it is very very hard to develop. DeMar is an excellent example. It's taken DD years to develop into a positive player (DD on the raptors is what Lavine is right now) and even then he's reverting back to bad habits when the going gets tough

I think there’s a lot of hyperbole there, and I max him w/o hesitation.

There are also a lot of hard truths as well. I love/hate Zach’s game. He drives me crazy honestly...because I see everything he needs to be a superstar, but not nearly enough of the mental fortitude and discipline to get there, and play that way. Tough jumper, or athletic drive. That’s what he brings for the most part. The fact he makes so many of those is the tantalizing part. He’s so talented and gifted, and skilled, it leaves you wanting more.

I think he could develop a devastating post game a la MJ/Kobe. He also has enough size/strength/shooting ability that if he ever slowed down and probed the middle, he could pick teams apart because he’d always draw a crowd, or could just turn and shoot over most defenders.

But the athletic attacks have worked his whole life, and even now in the NBA. So change is going to be hard, if not impossible. I think he needs to see playoff failure to have a chance to grow in the types of areas I described. How could he be anything but irrationally confident? I think playoff humblings are the only thing that will force evolution from Zach. Unfortunately, it has taken him this long to get there, so his growth curve has been hindered by the crap rosters he has been on.

[DuckIII]

I like Ayo heaps. What a pick. But even that 21 and 10 game was not a function of any advanced creation or reads. He has been incredible at playing his role, making the right read, and executing based on what is asked of him, but I still don't see any advanced ability on the ball to be hyping him up to the extent that I think some people may be doing.

How on earth we're in 2022 and talking about trading Zach to start a 2nd round pick rookie is completely beyond me. This is a classic case of looking at the new shiny toy with rose coloured glasses.

So you don’t think we should blow it up and start over by rebuilding around Ayo?

[FriedRise]

I wouldn’t have guessed that one 20pt game is all it takes to ship Zach out of Chicago and crown Coby and Ayo as our backcourt of the future.

Is tanking back on the menu boys?

[GimmeDat]

I like Ayo heaps. What a pick. But even that 21 and 10 game was not a function of any advanced creation or reads. He has been incredible at playing his role, making the right read, and executing based on what is asked of him, but I still don't see any advanced ability on the ball to be hyping him up to the extent that I think some people may be doing.

How on earth we're in 2022 and talking about trading Zach to start a 2nd round pick rookie is completely beyond me. This is a classic case of looking at the new shiny toy with rose coloured glasses.

So you don’t think we should blow it up and start over by rebuilding around Ayo?

I mean, this is the best we've been in a decade, so nows the perfect time to blow it up and rebuild, I guess

[WindyCityBorn]

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet.

I think you are confused between a max contract and a supermax. The latter Zach can't qualify for.

He will qualify if he makes All-NBA which he has a pretty good shot at this season.

[step]

People will give you sh*t for this take but I'm coming around to Zach doesn't deserve the supermax yet.

I think you are confused between a max contract and a supermax. The latter Zach can't qualify for.

He will qualify if he makes All-NBA which he has a pretty good shot at this season.

My mistake, I automatically wrote it off because he was drafted by the T-Wolves. He can qualify for a DVE. Eeek.

[ThreeMileAllan]

Dude had a great statline tonight.... I'm starting to worry about paying him down the road

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[sco]

Dude had a great statline tonight.... I'm starting to worry about paying him down the road

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

He's under contract for next season. Vuc's contract will be off the books after next season. If Ayo somehow improves off of this level by then, you gotta pay him.

I came into the season thinking he was another Dotson, just overrated due to homerdome. I have been more than pleasantly surprised. I really love Ball and Caruso, but I'm struggling in seeing much, if any, drop-off to Ayo at PG.

I'll be optimistic we have the "problem" of 5 very good guards, and I'm curious how we handle light of us having 2 or 3 just average front court guys. Luckily, Ball and Ayo are capable of playing minutes at SF. Ball and DD can take a few minutes at the 4, if needed.

[dice]

It's still baffling that they gave trash ass Simonovic a 3 year deal but Ayo a 2 year deal. That's an absolute killer... Another team is definitely going to give him a 20m per year contract offer, and the Bulls will be in a bad spot because our ownership group is a bunch of cheap ****.

Luckily for us, other GMs aren’t from Chicago and aren’t Bulls fans. Ayo has been absolutely terrific relative to expectations, but he’s no $20MM player.

based on the last couple of games he absolutely is. and he has the distinct potential to be

coby needs to be shopped. both for the present and the future