the Jimmy Butler Trade in Hindsight

[ATRAIN53]

proving everyone wrong seems to be what fuels Jimmy.

The bottom line is our GM traded a 2 way player, 3 time All Star at age 27
because they didn't like Jimmy being Jimmy.

It was like a marriage gone bad and now you're watching your ex enjoy success while we just linger....


He's trying to make his case for the HOF, he's got the $$ and the endorsements.
He's gotten his team to the edge of the mountain.
He knows that until he pushes them over it, he's not gonna be listed as an elite NBA player.

We should be seeing absolute peak Butler the next few weeks.
I'm enjoying it.

Can't wait to see how Bos tried to adjust to him tonight.
I hope Smart plays soon, the battle between him and Jimmy would be great.

Smart is similar to Jimmy. He's a defensive specialist and very vocal.
BOS double down on his leadership and gave him his $$ last year.

Jimmy and Smart have been going at it for years, even back when the Bulls and BOS squared off in the post season.
I want some Smart vs Butler.

[Mech Engineer]

For many of us, the mistake of trading Butler is not hindsight at all. We were 100% sure that he was the right piece to keep and build around. And, for those who claim that GarPax would have screwed it up anyways, that's BS. GarPax were on thin legs by that time and if they had done a poor job of building around Butler, they would have been fired by Michael in a year or two. Remember, Micheal Reinsdorf was just trying to take charge around the Butler trade time and Paxson was the de-facto big decision maker(because of Jerry's trust and age).

Would Butler have caused some drama? Definitely. But, nothing like what happened with Ron Artest/Indiana Pacers or Kyrie/Nets etc... The difference between Minnesota and Chicago to Butler was obvious. He had a special love for Chicago not only because of the franchise reputation but also because he was drafted here. Minnesota is not in the same tier as Chicago. They are more like Sacramento/Memphis etc.. IMO, there are a few tiers at how NBA players look at teams. Lakers, Celtics and maybe a couple of more teams like the Heat are in the first tier because of their history. The Bulls, 76ers, Rockets etc.. are in the second tier where they have a good to great reputation for most players.

And, not to mention, even if his teams were a first round flame-out(they would have probably won against a 1st seed, Boston with a semi-decent PG before Rondo went down), he would have attracted a superstar friend to Chicago in a trade or FA. GarPax were not creative in trades. But, they would have signed off on a deal to get a superstar if somebody like Kyrie had said...I want to be traded to Chicago.

And, on top of it, there was time. It was not like Butler was 32 at that time. He was 27 and he had less mileage on his legs. A big deal would not have killed the Bulls anyways as the salary cap kept expanding.

It was one of the most egregious mistakes made by the Bulls in trading Butler. Overall, it was just pure bad luck for the Bulls that Paxson was not relieved of his duties earlier after the Thibs era. They also should have been cleaned out when Thibs was fired. Unfortunately, many of us were correct in 2 things...Hoiberg's offense was hocus-pocus/vaporware plus his hiring was a disaster and Butler trade was a big mistake. These 2 things have set back the Bulls for 6-8 years at the minimum.

[SfBull]

^^^ Hoiberg ffs. IIRC, a large narrative among fans and media was that the team with Jimmy was destined to be mediocre, not a high ceiling. But the truth was that our minds were poisoned by an incompetent FO and coaching staff to believe it. They were the ceiling problem, and our imaginations were limited by THEM. Not Jimmy.

As a consequence, Jimmy took a lot of negativity he never deserved. Remember all that stuff? Jimmy was too uncompromising, can’t deal with mediocrity, and softness. And that was supposed to be a problem. In Chicago of all places, we should have known better.

Jimmy wouldn´t tolerate that defensive softness played by the Bulls in the first round.

[SfBull]

Honestly it’s hard to fully blame GarPax for the situation. Jimmy Butler is great, better than Derozan but not by orders of magnitude, the latter showing he is a stellar and respected teammate and presence who can also go long stretches looking completely dominant. Our return wasn’t bad, recency bias has us judging an injured Lavine, and Jimmy can also be difficult and shut out his teammates as seen on the Sixers, TWolves, and even dressing by himself in Chicago and distancing himself from respected guys like Rose and Noah. It’s certainly not the franchise ending disaster some make it out to be. There are pluses and minuses.

This is the same old mistake imo. If anything should be apparent by now, the Bulls Sixers and Wolves were the problems

There’s nothing much wrong with this current DDR team either. But they did quit when they got hurt, got one dimensional and thats irrelevant to Jimmy anyway

I disagree as you won´t find any playoff team who have played so bad defense like the Bulls against the Bucks.It´s only a matter of watching other teams playing ,guys fighting for rebounds ,blocking shots,,playing playoff level defense.The Bulls treated their playoff series like ending regular season games.

[kulaz3000]

I know these hindsight discussions are fun, but man, I find it so pointless.

I'll put it this way, I was in support of moving him, but I wasn't entirely happy with the deal and the players we got in return. I think we could have and should have waited for more, but that's not the point. My main point is, he was always a really good player, when he was with us, but he has already improved immensely since, but that said, he had to go to a franchise, a really good franchise with a system which has been working for them for decades, and he fit perfectly - we didn't have that, and we probably still don't, because we are still in the infancy of rebuilding our franchise culture from the ground up.

Even if he had stayed, the reality is, we would not be where the Heat are, because our organisation was a mess. Remember he basically played for two other teams until he landed on the Heat, so it's like we were the only team trying to integrate or keep Butler happy. It takes a franchise like the Heat, Spurs who have solid framework of what they are about, and a culture which has been sustained for decades which can work with, and build around a player like Butler.

So no, even in hindsight, I still stand by the fact that it was time to trade him, I just wished that we would have got a better package for him. This failure is more on the management at the time, than anything else. And like I said, even if we had kept him, and he continued to evolve as a player, I just have zero confidence that we would have been able to build a team correctly around him, because our organisation culture was a mess.

[SfBull]

I know these hindsight discussions are fun, but man, I find it so pointless.

I'll put it this way, I was in support of moving him, but I wasn't entirely happy with the deal and the players we got in return. I think we could have and should have waited for more, but that's not the point. My main point is, he was always a really good player, when he was with us, but he has already improved immensely since, but that said, he had to go to a franchise, a really good franchise with a system which has been working for them for decades, and he fit perfectly - we didn't have that, and we probably still don't, because we are still in the infancy of rebuilding our franchise culture from the ground up.

Even if he had stayed, the reality is, we would not be where the Heat are, because our organisation was a mess. Remember he basically played for two other teams until he landed on the Heat, so it's like we were the only team trying to integrate or keep Butler happy. It takes a franchise like the Heat, Spurs who have solid framework of what they are about, and a culture which has been sustained for decades which can work with, and build around a player like Butler.

So no, even in hindsight, I still stand by the fact that it was time to trade him, I just wished that we would have got a better package for him. This failure is more on the management at the time, than anything else. And like I said, even if we had kept him, and he continued to evolve as a player, I just have zero confidence that we would have been able to build a team correctly around him, because our organisation culture was a mess.

it follows we couldn´t win Butler´s trade with such a weak FO running the Bulls,couldn´t get a better package,couldn´t be able to get good players for building around Jimmy if he had stayed.Maybe Ak could have made a better work on that situation.

[fleet]

I know these hindsight discussions are fun, but man, I find it so pointless.

I'll put it this way, I was in support of moving him, but I wasn't entirely happy with the deal and the players we got in return. I think we could have and should have waited for more, but that's not the point. My main point is, he was always a really good player, when he was with us, but he has already improved immensely since, but that said, he had to go to a franchise, a really good franchise with a system which has been working for them for decades, and he fit perfectly - we didn't have that, and we probably still don't, because we are still in the infancy of rebuilding our franchise culture from the ground up.

Even if he had stayed, the reality is, we would not be where the Heat are, because our organisation was a mess. Remember he basically played for two other teams until he landed on the Heat, so it's like we were the only team trying to integrate or keep Butler happy. It takes a franchise like the Heat, Spurs who have solid framework of what they are about, and a culture which has been sustained for decades which can work with, and build around a player like Butler.

So no, even in hindsight, I still stand by the fact that it was time to trade him, I just wished that we would have got a better package for him. This failure is more on the management at the time, than anything else. And like I said, even if we had kept him, and he continued to evolve as a player, I just have zero confidence that we would have been able to build a team correctly around him, because our organisation culture was a mess.

Just want to push back on the highlight portion, which often gets mentioned. If people want to opine that his winning game marinated in some ways since he left the Bulls, I won’t argue, thats a fair subjective opinion. Especially in Miami. But his PER numbers when he left the Bulls (to keep it simple) were built up to about a 25 PER before he went to Minny. He has only surpassed that once a couple years ago. He was already this beast in Chicago.

[sco]

Posted this elsewhere, but same point is true here:

After watching the Heat getting crushed and ESPN afterwards, I wanted to point out just how big of a difference having a couple of key guys gimpy/out has on the play of another team. We talk about Jimmy vs. Zach, but seeing the similar impact on Jimmy's play not having his knees at 100% is almost exactly the same as Zach. So maybe we aren't as far away from contending as many here would suggest.

[Ice Man]

Posted this elsewhere, but same point is true here:

After watching the Heat getting crushed and ESPN afterwards, I wanted to point out just how big of a difference having a couple of key guys gimpy/out has on the play of another team. We talk about Jimmy vs. Zach, but seeing the similar impact on Jimmy's play not having his knees at 100% is almost exactly the same as Zach. So maybe we aren't as far away from contending as many here would suggest.

For sure about Zach. If healthy, he will score playoff points, same as Booker, Mitchell, Murray, or Beal. I'm not that makes us a contender, given how brutal the defenses of contending teams usually are, but that's for a different conversation. At any rate, I am not down on Zach at all for his performance in this year's playoff. The guy actually did pretty well, given his bum knee.

[Jcool0]

Posted this elsewhere, but same point is true here:

After watching the Heat getting crushed and ESPN afterwards, I wanted to point out just how big of a difference having a couple of key guys gimpy/out has on the play of another team. We talk about Jimmy vs. Zach, but seeing the similar impact on Jimmy's play not having his knees at 100% is almost exactly the same as Zach. So maybe we aren't as far away from contending as many here would suggest.

For sure about Zach. If healthy, he will score playoff points, same as Booker, Mitchell, Murray, or Beal. I'm not that makes us a contender, given how brutal the defenses of contending teams usually are, but that's for a different conversation. At any rate, I am not down on Zach at all for his performance in this year's playoff. The guy actually did pretty well, given his bum knee.

Given how a healthy Bulls team played, they were contenders. You would of had Caruso and Ball making All Defensive teams and DeMar and Zach making All NBA teams. Cant name many teams that can pull that off.

[HomoSapien]

I just want to say **** GarPax for not understanding how special Butler was and never trying to build a team around him. And to all that keep saying it was impossible to do what Miami did, I want to remind them that it wasn't. I was able to sit behind my computer and make these calls, I don't want to hear how there's some unmatched genius that we couldn't have replicated.

On keeping Butler:

For me a big factor in this debate on whether or not to keep Jimmy Butler is Lebron James' age. He's 32. He's going to be a big impact player until he retires, but you have to imagine that with the type of mileage he has on his body he's going to start wearing down in the not so distant future.

No one else in the East looks unbeatable or even incredibly long-lasting. The Raptors are always going to remain strong, but we've had their number and Lowry is 30.

For that reason, it makes sense to keep Butler as he alone gives us a shot to be competitive in the East for at least the next four years and that time frame may allow us to take advantage of a weak and aging Eastern Conference.

I haven't read through much of this thread, so forgive me if anyone else has pointed this out, but I really wish we had tried to build a Rockets like team around Jimmy Butler this past season. Rather than surrounding Butler with players that fit him, we got stuck with RoLo's longterm contract and stupidly committed two years to Wade and Rondo. Even if we basically came back with the Pau Gasol/Rose team for one more year we'd at least be heading into this off-season with tons of capspace. With the way the off-season has gone, Blake and Lowry would have been legitimate targets and may have been interested in pairing with Butler.

Here's a strategy. Trade Gibson, Wade, Lopez, Mirotic etc for future picks. Make sure not to commit to anyone long-term other than Butler.

Tank WITH Jimmy Butler on your roster, and then trade that top 5 pick plus additional assets for the next Paul George type player that becomes available. Then you've got Butler, other all-star, and tons of cap.

On drafting Bam Adebayo:

What do you all think about Bam Adebayo? I really like the guy. Has an NBA ready body. Can hit the glass hard. Athletic. Great size. Clogs the middle. Sort of reminds me of Dwight Howard.

DraftExpress is saying his wingspan is 7'1.5" and at only 19 he's pretty productive despite still being raw. I didn't watch a ton of college basketball last season, but from what I've seen from him I think he's going to be a high reward player. People are usually down on these big men coming into the draft, but a lot of them have surprised (Drummond, Jordan, Dwight, Whiteside). DraftExpress has him going 31. I predict he'll sneak into the top 18 by the draft.

Glad I'm not the only one. Aside from his body and athleticism, take a look at his foot work. He's not nearly as raw as you'd expect him to be. He has a chance of being special.

On Max freaking Strus:

Real unfortunate. I thought he actually looked pretty promising in the limited minutes we saw him play. Wonder if we'll waive him and sign a new 2-way player? Either way, I hope we give him a look next season. He's got something... like an athletic Korver.

Looks like Bey signed an Exhibit-10 deal with the Rockets. I thought he might have been a candidate for a 2-way spot with us, but no one from our summer league looked all that intriguing. Funny enough, our former 2-way player Max Strus had some impressive moments for Miami last year and got a contract to be on their team. It wouldn't shock me if he proves to be a hidden gem. He really seemed like he had game.

[dukeespn]

"You can't build around Jimmy and when your second best player is Mirotic you should trade him!!"

Also some delusiobal Bulls fans shout out : "You HAVE TO build around LaVine even when your second best player is Thad!!"

Well those LaVine fanboys will never understand that basketball is two-way sports. And they also don't get it that if your two best players are bad defenders you'll never achieve something meaningful in the playoffs. That's it.

[bulls_troy]

The trade was 5 years ago

Let it go

[The Box Office]

I just want to say **** GarPax for not understanding how special Butler was and never trying to build a team around him. And to all that keep saying it was impossible to do what Miami did, I want to remind them that it wasn't. I was able to sit behind my computer and make these calls, I don't want to hear how there's some unmatched genius that we couldn't have replicated.

On keeping Butler:

For me a big factor in this debate on whether or not to keep Jimmy Butler is Lebron James' age. He's 32. He's going to be a big impact player until he retires, but you have to imagine that with the type of mileage he has on his body he's going to start wearing down in the not so distant future.

No one else in the East looks unbeatable or even incredibly long-lasting. The Raptors are always going to remain strong, but we've had their number and Lowry is 30.

For that reason, it makes sense to keep Butler as he alone gives us a shot to be competitive in the East for at least the next four years and that time frame may allow us to take advantage of a weak and aging Eastern Conference.

I haven't read through much of this thread, so forgive me if anyone else has pointed this out, but I really wish we had tried to build a Rockets like team around Jimmy Butler this past season. Rather than surrounding Butler with players that fit him, we got stuck with RoLo's longterm contract and stupidly committed two years to Wade and Rondo. Even if we basically came back with the Pau Gasol/Rose team for one more year we'd at least be heading into this off-season with tons of capspace. With the way the off-season has gone, Blake and Lowry would have been legitimate targets and may have been interested in pairing with Butler.

Here's a strategy. Trade Gibson, Wade, Lopez, Mirotic etc for future picks. Make sure not to commit to anyone long-term other than Butler.

Tank WITH Jimmy Butler on your roster, and then trade that top 5 pick plus additional assets for the next Paul George type player that becomes available. Then you've got Butler, other all-star, and tons of cap.

On drafting Bam Adebayo:

What do you all think about Bam Adebayo? I really like the guy. Has an NBA ready body. Can hit the glass hard. Athletic. Great size. Clogs the middle. Sort of reminds me of Dwight Howard.

DraftExpress is saying his wingspan is 7'1.5" and at only 19 he's pretty productive despite still being raw. I didn't watch a ton of college basketball last season, but from what I've seen from him I think he's going to be a high reward player. People are usually down on these big men coming into the draft, but a lot of them have surprised (Drummond, Jordan, Dwight, Whiteside). DraftExpress has him going 31. I predict he'll sneak into the top 18 by the draft.

Glad I'm not the only one. Aside from his body and athleticism, take a look at his foot work. He's not nearly as raw as you'd expect him to be. He has a chance of being special.

On Max freaking Strus:

Real unfortunate. I thought he actually looked pretty promising in the limited minutes we saw him play. Wonder if we'll waive him and sign a new 2-way player? Either way, I hope we give him a look next season. He's got something... like an athletic Korver.

Looks like Bey signed an Exhibit-10 deal with the Rockets. I thought he might have been a candidate for a 2-way spot with us, but no one from our summer league looked all that intriguing. Funny enough, our former 2-way player Max Strus had some impressive moments for Miami last year and got a contract to be on their team. It wouldn't shock me if he proves to be a hidden gem. He really seemed like he had game.

I'm with you. When the draft comes around, GarPax and AKME pass on the guys I wanted. The thing is we don't have the coaching staff to support Jimmy Butler anyway.

Just give props to Jimmy Butler on his historic game 6 performance against the Boston Celtics on their home floor. That stuff is demoralizing for Boston. Holy cr*p.

For the Zach LaVine fan boys, do you understand why great perimeter defense is so important? One way offense guys, who are your leaders, don't take you far in the playoffs. They're usually treadmill first round exits every year. Ask Steve Nash. Ask Kevin Love. Ask Carmelo Anthony. Ask Kyrie Irving. Ask Donovan Mitchell. Ask Damian Lillard. Ask Zach LaVine himself.

[dice]

The trade was 5 years ago

Let it go

given that garpax probably didn't want to pay jimmy for the next 2 seasons, if anything the criticism is premature

[RSP83]

It hurts man... I also signed off on the Jimmy trade. Simply because the marriage between Jimmy and Bulls organization was already broken, and I didn't believe it can be saved. I never questioned Jimmy though, I've always put Jimmy ahead of Harden and DeMar, his closest peers at the time. Even when Harden was already doing his MVP thing, I still put Jimmy ahead of him.

If it makes it easier to accept, Chicago is not the only team that "pass" on Jimmy. Minnesota and Philly did the same. Miami is just the first team to truly embrace Jimmy as their franchise player. And it pays off.

[dice]

It hurts man... I also signed off on the Jimmy trade. Simply because the marriage between Chicago and Bulls organization was already broken, and I didn't believe it can be saved. I never questioned Jimmy though, I've always put Jimmy ahead of Harden and DeMar, his closest peers at the time. Even when Harden was already doing his MVP thing, I still put Jimmy ahead of him.

If it makes it easier to accept, Chicago is not the only team that "pass" on Jimmy. Minnesota and Philly did the same. Miami is just the first team to truly embrace Jimmy as their franchise player. And it pays off.

minny and philly didn't pass on jimmy. they just didn't properly prioritize him. certainly in minny's case, and probably in philly's case

[dice]

Posted this elsewhere, but same point is true here:

After watching the Heat getting crushed and ESPN afterwards, I wanted to point out just how big of a difference having a couple of key guys gimpy/out has on the play of another team. We talk about Jimmy vs. Zach, but seeing the similar impact on Jimmy's play not having his knees at 100% is almost exactly the same as Zach. So maybe we aren't as far away from contending as many here would suggest.

For sure about Zach. If healthy, he will score playoff points, same as Booker, Mitchell, Murray, or Beal. I'm not that makes us a contender, given how brutal the defenses of contending teams usually are, but that's for a different conversation. At any rate, I am not down on Zach at all for his performance in this year's playoff. The guy actually did pretty well, given his bum knee.

Given how a healthy Bulls team played, they were contenders. You would of had Caruso and Ball making All Defensive teams and DeMar and Zach making All NBA teams. Cant name many teams that can pull that off.

i'm not sure zach was ever going to make all-nba. certainly possible though. but were the bulls ever genuine contenders? vegas didn't think so. click play:

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/championship-odds

[dukeespn]

Posted this elsewhere, but same point is true here:

After watching the Heat getting crushed and ESPN afterwards, I wanted to point out just how big of a difference having a couple of key guys gimpy/out has on the play of another team. We talk about Jimmy vs. Zach, but seeing the similar impact on Jimmy's play not having his knees at 100% is almost exactly the same as Zach. So maybe we aren't as far away from contending as many here would suggest.

I don't think Jimmy can lead his team to the championshop. I like him very much but I think he's not a superstar.

But one thing is for sure. He never makes excuses and will never make excuses.

https://youtu.be/eUav8U-L2ZE

On the other hand losers and delusional fanboys keep making excuses while nobody cares about your moans.


Seriously some Bulls fans really like to ignore the fact that Bulls traded much future assets to go into win-now mode RIGHT NOW. And yet there're so many whining fanboys while making excuses instead of criticizing team's weaknesses.

[Jcool0]

For sure about Zach. If healthy, he will score playoff points, same as Booker, Mitchell, Murray, or Beal. I'm not that makes us a contender, given how brutal the defenses of contending teams usually are, but that's for a different conversation. At any rate, I am not down on Zach at all for his performance in this year's playoff. The guy actually did pretty well, given his bum knee.

Given how a healthy Bulls team played, they were contenders. You would of had Caruso and Ball making All Defensive teams and DeMar and Zach making All NBA teams. Cant name many teams that can pull that off.

i'm not sure zach was ever going to make all-nba. certainly possible though. but were the bulls ever genuine contenders? vegas didn't think so. click play:

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/championship-odds

Zach was averaging 25.6 ppg on 49% shooting (41% from 3), 4.9 rebounds and 4.4 assists. Bulls record was 27-12. Pre injury. Also was on the Kia MVP ladder to start January.

For comparison:

Tatum made the first team averaging 26.9 ppg on 45% shooting (35% from 3), 8 rebounds and 4.4 assists.

Booker made first team averaging 26.8 ppg on 46% shooting (38% from 3), 5 rebounds and 4.8 assists.,