PG: Worst home loss of the year

[Wingy]

At the end of the day, blame LaVine what we want...

One sub-point of one of my GT posts is a big part of the genesis of this...what’s clearly (to me) a misperception that people are pinning it on Zach.

In the GT, I called out one of the main reasons for our overall collapse being the poor play of the “big 3,” lack of accountability for it, and how I think that has crushed morale team wide. I noted some of their typical faults and “contributions” to the losing...probably 3 or 4 quick hitters for Zach/DD/Vuc(ebrick).

One of Zach’s was his poor shot selection, which then turned into debate on that subject. That has spilled over here due to a Strat comment referencing back to that conversation.

It’s just typical Zach debate in the context of poster back and forth. No one’s blaming Zach for all of this.

[JordansBulls]

we were up 2.5 games on January 11th on everyone in the east https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/index.cgi?month=1&day=11&year=2022

[NecessaryEvil]

we were up 2.5 games on January 11th on everyone in the east https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/index.cgi?month=1&day=11&year=2022

This seasons bulls needs a espn 30 for 30


What transpired makes no sense

[RSP83]

we were up 2.5 games on January 11th on everyone in the east https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/index.cgi?month=1&day=11&year=2022

This seasons bulls needs a espn 30 for 30


What transpired makes no sense

It is certainly one of the most bizarre case I've seen. Granted I don't follow much beyond the Bulls. But, maybe the writing was on the wall, that there's a lot of the early season wins that's not sustainable. We knew it but we just expect things to fix itself out as the season progresses. Other than the super strong start when Caruso and Lonzo both healthy quarterbacking the defense, the Bulls would always play close with a lot of lead changes. I don't think we had a lot of blowout wins.

[Am2626]

No he wasn't the fact that some of you think hey someone scored 30 and MJ scored 30 so the player is like MJ is absurd

It isn’t about scoring 30 plus points. DeRozen had a streak of 35 plus points with a field goal percentage of over 50%. That type of efficiency has only been matched by Wilt Chamberlain who was a big man. Much harder for a guard to do. Most importantly the Bulls were winning pretty much every game all because of him.

This is the result of ESPN and their arbitrary stat cut-offs they'd often show on Sportscenter, then in later years social media after games. Now it seems everyone does it, so as to make these accomplishments seem more important than they really are.

You say the Bulls were winning, but during that stretch, what was the best team they beat? And what was their win margin in those games?

That goes to show how poorly this supporting cast has been and that it took a Jordanesque performance from DeRozen even to win these games.

[dice]

we were up 2.5 games on January 11th on everyone in the east https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/index.cgi?month=1&day=11&year=2022

This seasons bulls needs a espn 30 for 30


What transpired makes no sense

that sure would go a long way toward killing off the 30 for 30 franchise

first 36 games (26-10): 107.4 opponent PPG (10th in league)
since (19-26): 115.5 opponent PPG (28th in league)

[Stratmaster]

At the end of the day, blame LaVine what we want...

One sub-point of one of my GT posts is a big part of the genesis of this...what’s clearly (to me) a misperception that people are pinning it on Zach.

In the GT, I called out one of the main reasons for our overall collapse being the poor play of the “big 3,” lack of accountability for it, and how I think that has crushed morale team wide. I noted some of their typical faults and “contributions” to the losing...probably 3 or 4 quick hitters for Zach/DD/Vuc(ebrick).

One of Zach’s was his poor shot selection, which then turned into debate on that subject. That has spilled over here due to a Strat comment referencing back to that conversation.

It’s just typical Zach debate in the context of poster back and forth. No one’s blaming Zach for all of this.

Zach Lavine is a flawed player.

I just don't agree that he takes any more "bad shots" than any other player with his usage. The 3 point numbers actually show he takes less. And if he is taking less, and shooting at a .600 TS% (even much higher before the knee) it's not a problem. We can talk all we want about when he is taking them.

The problem is he needs to be taking more of them... at least if he is healthy he does.

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[Wingy]

At the end of the day, blame LaVine what we want...

One sub-point of one of my GT posts is a big part of the genesis of this...what’s clearly (to me) a misperception that people are pinning it on Zach.

In the GT, I called out one of the main reasons for our overall collapse being the poor play of the “big 3,” lack of accountability for it, and how I think that has crushed morale team wide. I noted some of their typical faults and “contributions” to the losing...probably 3 or 4 quick hitters for Zach/DD/Vuc(ebrick).

One of Zach’s was his poor shot selection, which then turned into debate on that subject. That has spilled over here due to a Strat comment referencing back to that conversation.

It’s just typical Zach debate in the context of poster back and forth. No one’s blaming Zach for all of this.

Zach Lavine is a flawed player.

I just don't agree that he takes any more "bad shots" than any other player with his usage. The 3 point numbers actually show he takes less. And if he is taking less, and shooting at a .600 TS% (even much higher before the knee) it's not a problem. We can talk all we want about when he is taking them.

The problem is he needs to be taking more of them... at least if he is healthy he does.

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I’ll continue to make the contention. You can point to his numbers all day long.

I’ll point to what I’ve observed watching the context of the games, and he continues to take them at horrendous points in the flow of the game.

Want more looks for him? I’m up for that.
1. Gotta convince DeMar to pass up some of his heavily contested shots
2. Zach’s gotta just rise and take them. At times he has a solid look at a 3 if he doesn’t hesitate, and he’ll instead dribble into traffic like a Javonte would, but instead of passing it off, Zach possessing greater talent/skill turns it into a step back. Just shoot the ball.
3. Coach Bill D could draw up some more sets to get Zach non-ball pounding, non-stepback looks...but you and I both know that whole idea escapes our head coach.

[Stratmaster]

One sub-point of one of my GT posts is a big part of the genesis of this...what’s clearly (to me) a misperception that people are pinning it on Zach.

In the GT, I called out one of the main reasons for our overall collapse being the poor play of the “big 3,” lack of accountability for it, and how I think that has crushed morale team wide. I noted some of their typical faults and “contributions” to the losing...probably 3 or 4 quick hitters for Zach/DD/Vuc(ebrick).

One of Zach’s was his poor shot selection, which then turned into debate on that subject. That has spilled over here due to a Strat comment referencing back to that conversation.

It’s just typical Zach debate in the context of poster back and forth. No one’s blaming Zach for all of this.

Zach Lavine is a flawed player.

I just don't agree that he takes any more "bad shots" than any other player with his usage. The 3 point numbers actually show he takes less. And if he is taking less, and shooting at a .600 TS% (even much higher before the knee) it's not a problem. We can talk all we want about when he is taking them.

The problem is he needs to be taking more of them... at least if he is healthy he does.

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I’ll continue to make the contention. You can point to his numbers all day long.

I’ll point to what I’ve observed watching the context of the games, and he continues to take them at horrendous points in the flow of the game.

Want more looks for him? I’m up for that.
1. Gotta convince DeMar to pass up some of his heavily contested shots
2. Zach’s gotta just rise and take them. At times he has a solid look at a 3 if he doesn’t hesitate, and he’ll instead dribble into traffic like a Javonte would, but instead of passing it off, Zach possessing greater talent/skill turns it into a step back. Just shoot the ball.
3. Coach Bill D could draw up some more sets to get Zach non-ball pounding, non-stepback looks...but you and I both know that whole idea escapes our head coach.

That stepback 3 drives everybody crazy. Except when he was making them early in the season. Then it was "look at the new weapon Lavine worked on in the offseason".

But yeah, I think catch and shoot 3's would be much better if the coach had a clue how to generate them.

But here is why I always harp on this subject. Unless Vuc is hanging around the arc launching 3's (which we don't want) Demar and Vuc occupy the same space offensively. Defenses have figured out they can clog up the free throw line area, and neutralize both of them. They will let Vuc or demar shoot 3's all night long.

The only player the Bulls have right now who can make them pay from outside is Zach...or Coby once every 6 games.

But the way the Bulls run their offensive sets it is obvious as they come into the halfcourt if they are going to iso Demar, PnR with Vuc, or let Lavine create. And that basically covers all of their "offensive" creativity.

So yes...Zach absolutely should be rising and taking 3's early in the shot clock. Especially when teams see Demar coming out for the ball and collapse in the middle. It will keep the defense honest.

unrelated... when Demar goes ISO bigs have to clear out to get him space. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of Demar's misses result in offensive rebounds compared to other players.

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[coldfish]

I would love to watch a game from early in the season. Just to see the difference. My memory tells me that the defensive effort was significantly higher, as was the ball movement.

[Stratmaster]

I would love to watch a game from early in the season. Just to see the difference. My memory tells me that the defensive effort was significantly higher, as was the ball movement.

On this specific team, Lonzo is so valuable. The Bulls have all of their "solutions" tied up in one player who so far doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy.

Stopping the ball at the point of attack... Lonzo. Playing passing lanes...Lonzo. Punishing lazy dribbles... Lonzo (Ayo does this a bit also). Switching onto bigger players and holding his own... Lonzo

The only guy who can help with that in Lonzo's absence is Caruso, and he has been hurt or playing at about 50% health the whole time Lonzo has been out. I don't know that this is all about effort. I do think as they continue to get scored on relentlessly they wear down and are starting to give up... so I guess that is effort but I think they need a shrink more than a kick in the ass.

On the offensive end...

They have to get out and run to win. Lonzo is the one guy who can facilitate that.

Nailing open 3's when teams double Demar and Zach... Lonzo.

This sounds like I think Ball is a superstar. I don't. He just happens to fill all the weaknesses Demar and Zach leave open.

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[fleet]

it's gotten so bad that will perdue has resorted to seeing the bright side

The Perdue bashing didn’t get to Friedell bashing levels, but people don’t like hearing honest commentary about their boo.

[Wingy]

That stepback 3 drives everybody crazy. Except when he was making them early in the season. Then it was "look at the new weapon Lavine worked on in the offseason".

But yeah, I think catch and shoot 3's would be much better if the coach had a clue how to generate them.

But here is why I always harp on this subject. Unless Vuc is hanging around the arc launching 3's (which we don't want) Demar and Vuc occupy the same space offensively. Defenses have figured out they can clog up the free throw line area, and neutralize both of them. They will let Vuc or demar shoot 3's all night long.

The only player the Bulls have right now who can make them pay from outside is Zach...or Coby once every 6 games.

But the way the Bulls run their offensive sets it is obvious as they come into the halfcourt if they are going to iso Demar, PnR with Vuc, or let Lavine create. And that basically covers all of their "offensive" creativity.

So yes...Zach absolutely should be rising and taking 3's early in the shot clock. Especially when teams see Demar coming out for the ball and collapse in the middle. It will keep the defense honest.

unrelated... when Demar goes ISO bigs have to clear out to get him space. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of Demar's misses result in offensive rebounds compared to other players.

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I didn’t watch much in years past, followed via the board, but he was definitely using the step back plenty last year. That aside-

Point of clarification for me in all this is that I don’t have a huge problem with it in a vacuum. My huge annoyance with it, and what I’m complaining about, is what I’ve been saying.

It’s the pretty obvious points in the game where he doesn’t know to go away from it.
Not saying he should never take them, or that it’s unreasonable for a player of his caliber to get some of those out of his system. It’s those chances where we can build a good lead, but the opportunity is squandered on a bad shot choice. Or what I’ve already mentioned. The other team is making a charge and we need our most talented, only 3-level scoring player to help stem the tide and produce a quality look...and instead the response is a tough shot early, w/o making the opponent work at all on defense, a shot he can literally get off anytime he wants...he just settles for it and let’s the other team keep rolling.

If he could make elementary reads on the current flow of the game, score, time ...and reel them in a ton more in those situations, we wouldn’t be having these conversations.

[fleet]

I would love to watch a game from early in the season. Just to see the difference. My memory tells me that the defensive effort was significantly higher, as was the ball movement.

DDR was always good, but at some point mid season the team became less team oriented, less defense oriented, and played differently. Perhaps understandable with the injuries, and that is was successful at times. They couldn’t shift their mentality back to what it was. As you say, they had quit by then

[Stratmaster]

That stepback 3 drives everybody crazy. Except when he was making them early in the season. Then it was "look at the new weapon Lavine worked on in the offseason".

But yeah, I think catch and shoot 3's would be much better if the coach had a clue how to generate them.

But here is why I always harp on this subject. Unless Vuc is hanging around the arc launching 3's (which we don't want) Demar and Vuc occupy the same space offensively. Defenses have figured out they can clog up the free throw line area, and neutralize both of them. They will let Vuc or demar shoot 3's all night long.

The only player the Bulls have right now who can make them pay from outside is Zach...or Coby once every 6 games.

But the way the Bulls run their offensive sets it is obvious as they come into the halfcourt if they are going to iso Demar, PnR with Vuc, or let Lavine create. And that basically covers all of their "offensive" creativity.

So yes...Zach absolutely should be rising and taking 3's early in the shot clock. Especially when teams see Demar coming out for the ball and collapse in the middle. It will keep the defense honest.

unrelated... when Demar goes ISO bigs have to clear out to get him space. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of Demar's misses result in offensive rebounds compared to other players.

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I didn’t watch much in years past, followed via the board, but he was definitely using the step back plenty last year. That aside-

Point of clarification for me in all this is that I don’t have a huge problem with it in a vacuum. My huge annoyance with it, and what I’m complaining about, is what I’ve been saying.

It’s the pretty obvious points in the game where he doesn’t know to go away from it.
Not saying he should never take them, or that it’s unreasonable for a player of his caliber to get some of those out of his system. It’s those chances where we can build a good lead, but the opportunity is squandered on a bad shot choice. Or what I’ve already mentioned. The other team is making a charge and we need our most talented, only 3-level scoring player to help stem the tide and produce a quality look...and instead the response is a tough shot early, w/o making the opponent work at all on defense, a shot he can literally get off anytime he wants...he just settles for it and let’s the other team keep rolling.

If he could make elementary reads on the current flow of the game, score, time ...and reel them in a ton more in those situations, we wouldn’t be having these conversations.

I think we just see what the Bulls need very differently.

I'm not concerned about making anyone work on defense. The Bulls are small. They need a faster pace. They shouldn't be working 16 seconds into the shot clock every time down the court. I'm not proposing the "must shoot within 12 seconds" approach. But the current offense is just plodding.

A 3 point make is a really good way to stop an opponents charge. Many in today's game believe it is the best way, and no one else in the league complains when they go in. Except if it is Zach and Stacey King is calling the game.

I do get your point. I just don't agree it is a problem with this particular team. If Zach doesn't do it they have no one else who can.

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[Wingy]

I think we just see what the Bulls need very differently.

I'm not concerned about making anyone work on defense. The Bulls are small. They need a faster pace. They shouldn't be working 16 seconds into the shot clock every time down the court. I'm not proposing the "must shoot within 12 seconds" approach. But the current offense is just plodding.

A 3 point make is a really good way to stop an opponents charge. Many in today's game believe it is the best way, and no one else in the league complains when they go in. Except if it is Zach and Stacey King is calling the game.

I do get your point. I just don't agree it is a problem with this particular team. If Zach doesn't do it they have no one else who can.

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Just cause I want Zach to seek out a better shot than a 6 seconds in, tough step back 3 doesn’t mean I want a plodding pace. Just tossing up a quick miss is a recipe for trouble in today’s era where the 3s come in waves. We’ve seen it way too many times, and again, it’s not just Zach’s tough attempts that contribute to these runs. It’s Vucebrick’s bricks. It’s DeMar forcing a tough ones too. Part of it’s them, part of it is lack of personnel (shooters that can get their shots off).

The slower pace we do see is a flaw in the design...if there even is one at this point. DD and Vuc don’t fit with the rest of the team if you want a fast pace. Heck, does Pat at age 20 even really run the floor well for his position?

The lack of shooting hurts any offense (inc. what Zach can do) you can dream of in today’s league. It’s especially rough for one built around Derozan and Vucebrick.

In fairness to AKME, they didn’t plan on losing 3-4 strong 3p shooters (Lonzo, PW, basically Vuc), but they did. Along with missing time, AC’s % also dropped a lot...about 100 spots lower amongst league leaders (~40 last year down to 33 this year).

Hopefully they learned a lesson — you can’t just look at % alone, and they have to ask...is this guy really a shooter? Do they get it off quickly, do they relish punishing the opponent and making them pay, is their 3PA rate stacking up against the rest of the league? Honestly, that only describes Lonzo, Zach, and sometimes Coby.

So yes, I get that sometimes for DeMar/Zach and their bad shots, they probably feel like the alternatives are often worse depending on what lineup ole Billy has rolled out. I would guess we’re not as far apart philosophically as the long exchange over two threads suggests.

[Stratmaster]

I think we just see what the Bulls need very differently.

I'm not concerned about making anyone work on defense. The Bulls are small. They need a faster pace. They shouldn't be working 16 seconds into the shot clock every time down the court. I'm not proposing the "must shoot within 12 seconds" approach. But the current offense is just plodding.

A 3 point make is a really good way to stop an opponents charge. Many in today's game believe it is the best way, and no one else in the league complains when they go in. Except if it is Zach and Stacey King is calling the game.

I do get your point. I just don't agree it is a problem with this particular team. If Zach doesn't do it they have no one else who can.

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Just cause I want Zach to seek out a better shot than a 6 seconds in, tough step back 3 doesn’t mean I want a plodding pace. Just tossing up a quick miss is a recipe for trouble in today’s era where the 3s come in waves. We’ve seen it way too many times, and again, it’s not just Zach’s tough attempts that contribute to these runs. It’s Vucebrick’s bricks. It’s DeMar forcing a tough ones too. Part of it’s them, part of it is lack of personnel (shooters that can get their shots off).

The slower pace we do see is a flaw in the design...if there even is one at this point. DD and Vuc don’t fit with the rest of the team if you want a fast pace. Heck, does Pat at age 20 even really run the floor well for his position?

The lack of shooting hurts any offense (inc. what Zach can do) you can dream of in today’s league. It’s especially rough for one built around Derozan and Vucebrick.

In fairness to AKME, they didn’t plan on losing 3-4 strong 3p shooters (Lonzo, PW, basically Vuc), but they did. Along with missing time, AC’s % also dropped a lot...about 100 spots lower amongst league leaders (~40 last year down to 33 this year).

Hopefully they learned a lesson — you can’t just look at % alone, and they have to ask...is this guy really a shooter? Do they get it off quickly, do they relish punishing the opponent and making them pay, is their 3PA rate stacking up against the rest of the league? Honestly, that only describes Lonzo, Zach, and sometimes Coby.

So yes, I get that sometimes for DeMar/Zach and their bad shots, they probably feel like the alternatives are often worse depending on what lineup ole Billy has rolled out. I would guess we’re not as far apart philosophically as the long exchange over two threads suggests.

Agree with everything you said. Except if Zach is open 6 seconds into the shot clock he should take it.

That will almost never happen though, because the Bulls rarely cross halfcourt in less than 7 seconds.

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[Wingy]

Agree with everything you said. Except if Zach is open 6 seconds into the shot clock he should take it.

That will almost never happen though, because the Bulls rarely cross halfcourt in less than 7 seconds.

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Seems like you’re debating points I’m not making.

If you consider Zach’s step backs to be open shots, then he’s literally always open.

I’m clearly not harping on Zach taking actual open shots. Good grief.

[Stratmaster]

Agree with everything you said. Except if Zach is open 6 seconds into the shot clock he should take it.

That will almost never happen though, because the Bulls rarely cross halfcourt in less than 7 seconds.

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Seems like you’re debating points I’m not making.

If you consider Zach’s step backs to be open shots, then he’s literally always open.

I’m clearly not harping on Zach taking actual open shots. Good grief.

I was pointing out that your example was absurd. Zach doesn't do that. I mean at some point he may have done it once. It just isn't an issue that needs to be addressed.

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