Which Bull do you want gone most?

[coldfish]

Personally I would be shopping everyone on the team. If you get a good offer, you do it. IMO, this collection of players doesn't work and it won't ever work.

Probably the most untouchable guy on the team to me is Caruso. A better coach than BD and the only one who provided some toughness. All while on a good contract.

If I had to pick someone to put 1st it would be Coby. His contract will soon be up and he provides NOOOOO value. A streak shooter who is usually cold and doesn't do anything else well. I really would like him dumped for a 2nd round pick. I think his salary could land a better player with part of the MLE.

I selected Pat though just because he pisses me off.

[DuckIII]

If I had to pick someone to put 1st it would be Coby.

He would have been my #1 except for two things:

(a) There’s no question that he’ll be gone so why bother? I’ll eat my shoe if he’s on the Bulls next year.

(b) He has no value that could actually be used to improve the team.

Wild speculation: He’ll be packaged with our pick on draft night to move up a couple of spots to get a specific player. Or he’ll be a trade throw in to make contracts work.

[MikeDC]

I think the predominant idea behind this question and almost every one is a bad one. Every player who goes out the door makes it harder to win games.

The focus should be much greater on getting in the best possible players while giving up the least.

That's been a problem for AKME. Everyone on this team, to some extent, is replaceable, but not if you're paying the full sticker price or more.

[coldfish]

If I had to pick someone to put 1st it would be Coby.

He would have been my #1 except for two things:

(a) There’s no question that he’ll be gone so why bother? I’ll eat my shoe if he’s on the Bulls next year.

(b) He has no value that could actually be used to improve the team.

Wild speculation: He’ll be packaged with our pick on draft night to move up a couple of spots to get a specific player. Or he’ll be a trade throw in to make contracts work.

IMO, the Bulls are probably going to be up against the lux tax line. Trading Coby for nothing would create some financial freedom to make other moves. I would trade Coby for literally nothing if I had to. But yeah, jumping up a few spots or as trade filler would certainly work.

I can make a case for just about everyone under contract providing some value next year other than Coby.

[DuckIII]

I think the predominant idea behind this question and almost every one is a bad one. Every player who goes out the door makes it harder to win games.

The focus should be much greater on getting in the best possible players while giving up the least.

That's been a problem for AKME. Everyone on this team, to some extent, is replaceable, but not if you're paying the full sticker price or more.

That’s why people should base their analysis on “who they want gone” in part on what that departure could yield in return.

I never want to see Coby or Javonte play in another Bulls game the rest of my life. But I didn’t even consider them as options here.

[ChettheJet]

Matt Thomas. I don't see what was the point of keeping him in the first place. To me he's a pale Kirk Hinrich impersonator who couldn't shoot, handle the ball or play defense as well. At best he was a better shooting Ryan Archidiacono. We needed size, all the way to the end, Thomas didn't even get on the floor at the end of the year or n the playoffs.

[MikeDC]

I think the predominant idea behind this question and almost every one is a bad one. Every player who goes out the door makes it harder to win games.

The focus should be much greater on getting in the best possible players while giving up the least.

That's been a problem for AKME. Everyone on this team, to some extent, is replaceable, but not if you're paying the full sticker price or more.

That’s why people should base their analysis on “who they want gone” in part on what that departure could yield in return.

I never want to see Coby or Javonte play in another Bulls game the rest of my life. But I didn’t even consider them as options here.

I don't think anyone has a plausible idea of what any of these guys would yield in return. Maybe more importantly, I think almost everyone with be systematically undervalued by the Bulls. It's not just that they've bought high on guys they've brought in, they've sold low on others.

The guy they might be able to make something out of is DeMar, but their window of opportunity to do so is going to be really narrow, simply because there's limited teams he'll go to and limited ways to make that salary work. All of which is to say, maybe he's really not a guy they can sell high on anyway.

[meekrab]

Billy's ridiculous obsession with playing 6'5" tall dudes at the "4" position is what I want gone.

[jnrjr79]

It's Vooch.

There are other guys that annoy me more. Vooch seems like a good dude and a team-first guy. He's just a poor fit. Many of the other guys on this list are far worse players and much more aggravating to watch play, but finding a better fit than Vooch is much more important than whether or not Javonte Green is around getting a spot minutes next year.

[jnrjr79]

I wanted to vote for Javonte Green just because it would permanently put an end to BD’s ludicrous man crush. But I like Javonte too much and he’s not important enough to be #1 on this list.

That distinction falls to Vuc. Given that he only has 1 more year on his deal, I feel we can get an adequate return for him that will improve the team and give us more defensive flexibility, which we desperately need.

#2 on my list would be DDR, but only because I think it’s possible that there’s a desperate team out there that would give us a killing for him. Since I don’t consider, and never did, this to be the destination roster but rather a 2 year transitional phase, I’m totally on board with that if it happens. But I’m definitely not “get DDR outta here” with that take. Just something I consider a possible positive.

I think there is a very strong "sell high" argument on DeRozan. He's gonna make All-NBA and is going to remain massively underpaid (relative to this year's performance, anyway) for two more seasons.

Still, I'm not sure you can do it. One of the big things AKME seems to be trying to do is turn Chicago into a desirable-for-big-names destination. DeRozan is beloved in the league, had a career year, and gushed about how happy he is here in his postgame interview last night. How big of a black eye are the Bulls going to take if they just flip him wherever after he gave you what he gave you this year?

[RoseTheFuture22]

It's Coby. If he couldn't succeed in a role where all he had to do was be like the 5th best ball handler on the team and provide somewhat steady offense off the bench I just don't think it is ever going to work for him here. I still think there's a player in there somewhere because he's shown flashes but the ceiling is just so low anyway that I would just trade him for a better fit with this roster since he's essentially an expiring.

[DuckIII]

I think the predominant idea behind this question and almost every one is a bad one. Every player who goes out the door makes it harder to win games.

The focus should be much greater on getting in the best possible players while giving up the least.

That's been a problem for AKME. Everyone on this team, to some extent, is replaceable, but not if you're paying the full sticker price or more.

That’s why people should base their analysis on “who they want gone” in part on what that departure could yield in return.

I never want to see Coby or Javonte play in another Bulls game the rest of my life. But I didn’t even consider them as options here.

I don't think anyone has a plausible idea of what any of these guys would yield in return. Maybe more importantly, I think almost everyone with be systematically undervalued by the Bulls. It's not just that they've bought high on guys they've brought in, they've sold low on others.

The guy they might be able to make something out of is DeMar, but their window of opportunity to do so is going to be really narrow, simply because there's limited teams he'll go to and limited ways to make that salary work. All of which is to say, maybe he's really not a guy they can sell high on anyway.

Well of course none of us know their value, obviously. We’re guessing. But in expressing my preference for who I “want gone” my decision is based in large part on what I believe their market value could be.

For the guys I believe have no real market value, I just don’t even worry about them.

As for DDR you’re absolutely right. And I’d say it’s not just a narrow window, it’s probably only this summer or, at most with diminishing value, the trade deadline.

[RoseTheFuture22]

Billy's ridiculous obsession with playing 6'5" tall dudes at the "4" position is what I want gone.

That's more of a roster construction issue than it is a Billy issue IMO. AKME seemingly made the roster thin there to force Billy's hand into giving Pat big development minutes but it backfired pretty quickly when he missed 80% of the season and there was no great option to pivot too. Adding more wing guys who can actually play needs to be the top priority

[MikeDC]

That’s why people should base their analysis on “who they want gone” in part on what that departure could yield in return.

I never want to see Coby or Javonte play in another Bulls game the rest of my life. But I didn’t even consider them as options here.

I don't think anyone has a plausible idea of what any of these guys would yield in return. Maybe more importantly, I think almost everyone with be systematically undervalued by the Bulls. It's not just that they've bought high on guys they've brought in, they've sold low on others.

The guy they might be able to make something out of is DeMar, but their window of opportunity to do so is going to be really narrow, simply because there's limited teams he'll go to and limited ways to make that salary work. All of which is to say, maybe he's really not a guy they can sell high on anyway.

Well of course none of us know their value, obviously. We’re guessing. But in expressing my preference for who I “want gone” my decision is based in large part on what I believe their market value could be.

For the guys I believe have no real market value, I just don’t even worry about them.

As for DDR you’re absolutely right. And I’d say it’s not just a narrow window, it’s probably only this summer or, at most with diminishing value, the trade deadline.

But you should worry about the guys who have no value, because just letting a player waste down to "I'm sick of him and he sucks" is counterproductive. What the Bulls should be doing is the exact opposite. The stronger your emotional reaction, the more reason it is to keep the guy around. Because good decisions are not made from emotion.

Like, Coby was shooting over 40% from 3 and playing passable defense at the deadline. Javonte was a feel good story. That was the time to do something with them (or earlier, in Coby's case).

The point is, the Bulls need to at least make the attempt at resucitating value. Whether it works or not is almost secondary to the attempt. They can't afford more sell-low/buy-high trades. For that matter, they also need to show some competence. Anyone can "do something" and "make a splash" by offering deals that 29 teams would jump at.

[DuckIII]

I wanted to vote for Javonte Green just because it would permanently put an end to BD’s ludicrous man crush. But I like Javonte too much and he’s not important enough to be #1 on this list.

That distinction falls to Vuc. Given that he only has 1 more year on his deal, I feel we can get an adequate return for him that will improve the team and give us more defensive flexibility, which we desperately need.

#2 on my list would be DDR, but only because I think it’s possible that there’s a desperate team out there that would give us a killing for him. Since I don’t consider, and never did, this to be the destination roster but rather a 2 year transitional phase, I’m totally on board with that if it happens. But I’m definitely not “get DDR outta here” with that take. Just something I consider a possible positive.

I think there is a very strong "sell high" argument on DeRozan. He's gonna make All-NBA and is going to remain massively underpaid (relative to this year's performance, anyway) for two more seasons.

Still, I'm not sure you can do it. One of the big things AKME seems to be trying to do is turn Chicago into a desirable-for-big-names destination. DeRozan is beloved in the league, had a career year, and gushed about how happy he is here in his postgame interview last night. How big of a black eye are the Bulls going to take if they just flip him wherever after he gave you what he gave you this year?

Absolutely right. I’ve written this before and don’t always add the caveat when it comes up: you can’t trade DDR if it’s a PR hit. It has to be with his blessing and to somewhere he very openly would support going (LA, NJ, or some either team closer to contention than us in a market he likes).

If he’s not on board both privately and publicly, you can’t do it. We need to rebuild our image and he’s a massive part of that.

[Andi Obst]

Voting DeRozan after that season is just insane to me.

I'd say Coby because I assume that TT is gone anyway.

[DuckIII]

I don't think anyone has a plausible idea of what any of these guys would yield in return. Maybe more importantly, I think almost everyone with be systematically undervalued by the Bulls. It's not just that they've bought high on guys they've brought in, they've sold low on others.

The guy they might be able to make something out of is DeMar, but their window of opportunity to do so is going to be really narrow, simply because there's limited teams he'll go to and limited ways to make that salary work. All of which is to say, maybe he's really not a guy they can sell high on anyway.

Well of course none of us know their value, obviously. We’re guessing. But in expressing my preference for who I “want gone” my decision is based in large part on what I believe their market value could be.

For the guys I believe have no real market value, I just don’t even worry about them.

As for DDR you’re absolutely right. And I’d say it’s not just a narrow window, it’s probably only this summer or, at most with diminishing value, the trade deadline.

But you should worry about the guys who have no value, because just letting a player waste down to "I'm sick of him and he sucks" is counterproductive. What the Bulls should be doing is the exact opposite. The stronger your emotional reaction, the more reason it is to keep the guy around. Because good decisions are not made from emotion.

Like, Coby was shooting over 40% from 3 and playing passable defense at the deadline. Javonte was a feel good story. That was the time to do something with them (or earlier, in Coby's case).

The point is, the Bulls need to at least make the attempt at resucitating value. Whether it works or not is almost secondary to the attempt. They can't afford more sell-low/buy-high trades. For that matter, they also need to show some competence. Anyone can "do something" and "make a splash" by offering deals that 29 teams would jump at.

The only guy I would not waste time raising his value is Coby. He’s a terrible fit, Ayo took his spot, we have guard depth, and he’s had a very large sample size to prove something. Not to mention that, in my opinion, he’s never even had a “NBA starter” ceiling to begin with. Yes we should have traded him in season and I pushed for it constantly. But that’s over now. AK chose otherwise.

The guys I “want gone” are guys whose departure will in fact help the team because (in my speculation) they actually have value to help address what we need. So I think we are in violent agreement.

[DuckIII]

Voting DeRozan after that season is just insane to me.

I'd say Coby because I assume that TT is gone anyway.

I’m assuming there are a couple of highly marginalized outlier posters who just want DDR gone because they think his “iso game” is ruining the team.

But I think most people only bring it up because they think he could possibly yield a big time return that could help the Bulls considerably down the road.

Let me put it this way: the only conceivable way this Bulls team becomes a significant contender during DDR’s contract is if Pat (or some other youngster) blows up and quickly. Other than that these next two seasons are probably just going to be treading water waiting for the next stage. If we can move DDR for a major return now and just jump ahead to that next stage, I’m for it.

[MikeDC]

Well of course none of us know their value, obviously. We’re guessing. But in expressing my preference for who I “want gone” my decision is based in large part on what I believe their market value could be.

For the guys I believe have no real market value, I just don’t even worry about them.

As for DDR you’re absolutely right. And I’d say it’s not just a narrow window, it’s probably only this summer or, at most with diminishing value, the trade deadline.

But you should worry about the guys who have no value, because just letting a player waste down to "I'm sick of him and he sucks" is counterproductive. What the Bulls should be doing is the exact opposite. The stronger your emotional reaction, the more reason it is to keep the guy around. Because good decisions are not made from emotion.

Like, Coby was shooting over 40% from 3 and playing passable defense at the deadline. Javonte was a feel good story. That was the time to do something with them (or earlier, in Coby's case).

The point is, the Bulls need to at least make the attempt at resucitating value. Whether it works or not is almost secondary to the attempt. They can't afford more sell-low/buy-high trades. For that matter, they also need to show some competence. Anyone can "do something" and "make a splash" by offering deals that 29 teams would jump at.

The only guy I would not waste time raising his value is Coby. He’s a terrible fit, Ayo took his spot, we have guard depth, and he’s had a very large sample size to prove something. Not to mention that, in my opinion, he’s never even had a “NBA starter” ceiling to begin with. Yes we should have traded him in season and I pushed for it constantly. But that’s over now. AK chose otherwise.

The guys I “want gone” are guys whose departure will in fact help the team because (in my speculation) they actually have value to help address what we need. So I think we are in violent agreement.

I don't think we're agreeing here and I don't think we're going to.
* A guy who shoots 39% from three on high volume has value. Even more if he's 22. That's Coby.
* A guy who's scared to shoot a three in a game is not an adequate replacement. That's Ayo.

As a long run proposition, I want to keep Ayo and trade Coby. But dumping Coby for a second round pick or some such nonsense is foolish for several reasons.

1. This is how everyone spirals down in value by being impatient. I get that everyone is mad Coby shat the bed, but his "sample size" is still showing that he's a demonstrably better shooter than everyone but Lonzo and Zach (who are both about to have knee surgery). So, if you dump him for nothing, the upside is nothing. The downside is maybe Ayo doesn't take the immediate leap everyone is fantasizing about, and then next year your shooting is even worse. And now you're down on Ayo because he hasn't met unrealistic expectations either by turning into a high volume 3 point shooter.

2. The Bulls aren't going to be under the cap, so they actually need to be careful in trading away ANY salary, lest they end up unable to make a more important deal later.

3. You can get a 2RP for a lower cost. Just go buy one.

[DuckIII]

But you should worry about the guys who have no value, because just letting a player waste down to "I'm sick of him and he sucks" is counterproductive. What the Bulls should be doing is the exact opposite. The stronger your emotional reaction, the more reason it is to keep the guy around. Because good decisions are not made from emotion.

Like, Coby was shooting over 40% from 3 and playing passable defense at the deadline. Javonte was a feel good story. That was the time to do something with them (or earlier, in Coby's case).

The point is, the Bulls need to at least make the attempt at resucitating value. Whether it works or not is almost secondary to the attempt. They can't afford more sell-low/buy-high trades. For that matter, they also need to show some competence. Anyone can "do something" and "make a splash" by offering deals that 29 teams would jump at.

The only guy I would not waste time raising his value is Coby. He’s a terrible fit, Ayo took his spot, we have guard depth, and he’s had a very large sample size to prove something. Not to mention that, in my opinion, he’s never even had a “NBA starter” ceiling to begin with. Yes we should have traded him in season and I pushed for it constantly. But that’s over now. AK chose otherwise.

The guys I “want gone” are guys whose departure will in fact help the team because (in my speculation) they actually have value to help address what we need. So I think we are in violent agreement.

I don't think we're agreeing here and I don't think we're going to.
* A guy who shoots 39% from three on high volume has value. Even more if he's 22. That's Coby.
* A guy who's scared to shoot a three in a game is not an adequate replacement. That's Ayo.

As a long run proposition, I want to keep Ayo and trade Coby. But dumping Coby for a second round pick or some such nonsense is foolish for several reasons.

1. This is how everyone spirals down in value by being impatient. I get that everyone is mad Coby shat the bed, but his "sample size" is still showing that he's a demonstrably better shooter than everyone but Lonzo and Zach (who are both about to have knee surgery). So, if you dump him for nothing, the upside is nothing. The downside is maybe Ayo doesn't take the immediate leap everyone is fantasizing about, and then next year your shooting is even worse. And now you're down on Ayo because he hasn't met unrealistic expectations either by turning into a high volume 3 point shooter.

2. The Bulls aren't going to be under the cap, so they actually need to be careful in trading away ANY salary, lest they end up unable to make a more important deal later.

3. You can get a 2RP for a lower cost. Just go buy one.

I didn’t say to trade Coby for a second round pick. I said to trade him to make contracts work as part of a larger trade or to use him as sweetener to move up a little in the draft. But I do not believe he has any stand alone value. So if you can’t package him in any way, and he in fact has no stand alone value, then sure keep him. He’s cheap and it’s possible he could improve his value as a stand alone asset.

I’m not mad at Coby. He just stinks. And his shooting (which you are inflating) should not be compared to the roster. It should be compared to everyone on the planet who is available and has arms/hands and feet/legs.

Coby is a career .365 3pt shooter. This year, minus his blistering hot February which was an aberration (38/78), he shot .349 on his other 303 attempts.