Ball's knee not improving, may indicate more serious issue

[MikeDC]

Hear P&S saying Ayton could be available? WTF, Id be all in on that. This current build isn’t going to work if this team is so fragile.

Without flat out saying I don’t want Ayton, I’m just going to point out that he’s maybe not even as good as Wendell Carter (there are a variety of metrics that favor Carter-who was practically ridden out of town on a rail) and will literally cost twice as much.

Point is, it would be another top dollar transaction. Paying big money and/or picks instead of seeking value. Which is fine… but then don’t cry poor when it comes to filling out the roster if you’re going to overpay for guys like this

Not sure at the end of the day what kinds of assets it would require. But the kid is young. And at the end of the day size is becoming more important than it has been. If we would have to start over then around him, it is what it is. what we have going now without Lonzo is kind of untenable to a championship build. As I said previously, maybe that’s the wrong thinking, but some people are wired to go for championship type builds rather than settling for being a stepping stone for the bigger fish in the post season.

Ayton is not a guy to build around in the same way that Vuc wouldn't be the guy to build around if he was 23. If you're going to overpay him because that's the only way you can keep adding pieces, then that's fine.

But he's a cog, not a building block. By most of the measures of production I see, he's not even one of the top 15 centers, and doesn't look on a path to be. Like, I'd much rather have Isaiah Hartenstein for $8M and have another $20M to spend on players than have Ayton at $28M. There's not $20M of difference between those guys.

Now, if I'm the GM, and Michael Reinsdorf says "Money is no object, you can have Ayton at $28M and then go spend another $20M and I'm cool with it, then fine, I'll take Ayton. But I don't think he's gonna say that.

[DuckIII]

If Lonzo’s knee really is gorked for the long term, this rebuild is already dead. Unless it’s so completely screwed we get cap relief.

But this is a really big deal.

Idk, it's not like we were likely to get anyone via cap space for years to come anyways. Ball is better than Caruso and Ayo, but not so much better that that drop off would single handedly tank our chances to compete at a high level. Ball is easily the most expendable of our top half dozen players for that reason IMO.

After the Vuc trade I wrote ad nauseum that the Bulls basically had to sign Lonzo Ball - specifically and exactly him - for that trade to ever work. That he had to be the unequivocal #1 priory last offseason. And given the tampering, it’s clear AK agreed with me.

And my opinion of his significance only went up once he actually started playing for us. So let’s just say I value his importance much more highly than you do.

[League Circles]

If Lonzo’s knee really is gorked for the long term, this rebuild is already dead. Unless it’s so completely screwed we get cap relief.

But this is a really big deal.

Idk, it's not like we were likely to get anyone via cap space for years to come anyways. Ball is better than Caruso and Ayo, but not so much better that that drop off would single handedly tank our chances to compete at a high level. Ball is easily the most expendable of our top half dozen players for that reason IMO.

After the Vuc trade I wrote ad nauseum that the Bulls basically had to sign Lonzo Ball - specifically and exactly him - for that trade to ever work. That he had to be the unequivocal #1 priory last offseason. And given the tampering, it’s clear AK agreed with me.

And my opinion of his significance only went up once he actually started playing for us. So let’s just say I value his importance much more highly than you do.

I probably gave the wring impression. I do value him highly and think he's a great fit with us, and yes particularly with Vuc, although I was not a fan of his before he started playing for us. He really surprised me. It's just that I'm pretty high on Caruso and Ayo, both of whom can provide a lot of what he does, especially in defensive versatility. Like I think you can make a very solid case that Ball is a better player than Vuc. But Vuc is IMO more important to us because the drop off from him to whatever shooting guard we had playing back center is way bigger than from Ball to Caruso and Ayo.

[WindyCityBorn]

If Lonzo’s knee really is gorked for the long term, this rebuild is already dead. Unless it’s so completely screwed we get cap relief.

But this is a really big deal.

Idk, it's not like we were likely to get anyone via cap space for years to come anyways. Ball is better than Caruso and Ayo, but not so much better that that drop off would single handedly tank our chances to compete at a high level. Ball is easily the most expendable of our top half dozen players for that reason IMO.

After the Vuc trade I wrote ad nauseum that the Bulls basically had to sign Lonzo Ball - specifically and exactly him - for that trade to ever work. That he had to be the unequivocal #1 priory last offseason. And given the tampering, it’s clear AK agreed with me.

And my opinion of his significance only went up once he actually started playing for us. So let’s just say I value his importance much more highly than you do.

Ball is so much better than Caruso and Ayo it isn’t funny. We need a new starter that isn’t on the roster if his injury in career altering.

[WindyCityBorn]

Lonzo is the engine so this is extremely tough.

We run when he's on the floor and have elite defense with himself and AC.

Bulls need to try and move Vooch in a three-team involving PHX and DALLAS.

I think Vooch excels with either Doncic or CP3

Ball nor Caruso should ever guard another PF by design again. I blame the front office for that. Of course they got beat over the course of season.

[HomoSapien]

We should target someone like Goran Dragic…someone who can at times give us the production of a starting point guard. Lonzo’s not going to be dependable, so the more depth we have here the better.

[WindyCityBorn]

So the problem isn’t the meniscus, but the bone bruise that predated it? What can do for bone bruise. I did a little research and I don’t see any way to treat it other than rest and he is way past the longest timetable for it to heal. I hope the plan isn’t to just keep resting it and we get to September and nothing has changed. I’m actually more optimistic now that know it isn’t the ligament, but this an abnormally long recovery and reason to be concerned. I still think it will work itself and he will be ready to go opening, but missing an entire off-season of potential development will hurt for sure.

[The Box Office]

That's it. It's over for Lonzo Ball's time, as a starter, in Chicago. This was super short lived. Even IF he does return, Lonzo cannot start. Time to move on.

This isn't D Rose. But it sucks to be sure. There are reasons to hope, so let's not write him off yet.

As some far more knowledgeable folks than I have pointed out, options for fixing this are out there. It may take some time, maybe even deep into, or through, next season. Realistically it is reasonable to hope for better than that.

Back to the Drose comparison. The loss of athleticism crippled Rose for years until he finally adjusted into a very fine player again, if not All Star quality. Lonzo's game isn't predicated on explosive athleticism. Tough smart defense, quick hands, anticipation, IQ, vision, passing on the break, and 3-point shooting. So even if he comes back minus a bit of explosion, he can still be what we saw early this past season.

I didn't say anything about Derrick Rose in my post. Why did you bring him up with me?

It's over for Lonzo Ball, as a starter, anyway. Which I stated, too. There's nothing wrong with that. Lonzo, and his fans, have to accept that he now has to make his living as a bench player. Just accept it, make peace with it, and move on.

Having constant knee issues NEVER get better. Let this be another reminder.

[sco]

So the problem isn’t the meniscus, but the bone bruise that predated it? What can do for bone bruise. I did a little research and I don’t see any way to treat it other than rest and he is way past the longest timetable for it to heal. I hope the plan isn’t to just keep resting it and we get to September and nothing has changed. I’m actually more optimistic now that know it isn’t the ligament, but this an abnormally long recovery and reason to be concerned. I still think it will work itself and he will be ready to go opening, but missing an entire off-season of potential development will hurt for sure.

I was wondering if they "know" it's NOT the meniscus? If it is the bone bruise not healing fully, that may be better news. I am unaware (which isn't saying much) of anyone's career cut short from a bone bruise.

[Ice Man]

It's over for Lonzo Ball, as a starter, anyway. Which I stated, too. There's nothing wrong with that. Lonzo, and his fans, have to accept that he now has to make his living as a bench player. Just accept it, make peace with it, and move on.

That would be my guess. He will become like latter-stage DRose/Noah -- able to play in the NBA, but because his knee won't be able to withstand the rigors of normal NBA training, he will need to have his own, less rigorous training regime. Which will affect his game fitness. Plus, the knee will periodically flare up. So he will be slotted into a bench role that can better preserve his body.

Not saying that is what will happen; nobody knows, including me. But that strikes me as the likeliest of the many possible outcomes.

[FriedRise]

Some cheap UFA options we can target to help shore up the PG position:
- Goran Dragic
- Austin Rivers
- Dennis Schroder
- Jevon Carter
- Rondo

[jnrjr79]

I listened to the NBC Sports Chicago Bulls podcast yesterday w/KC Johnson. Take this for whatever it's worth, but he says the surgery successfully resolved the meniscus issue, and that his understanding is the lingering issue is that the bone bruise just isn't healing. He said that the only way to heal a bone bruise is rest, which seemed to suggest that the repeated efforts to ramp-up Lonzo's physical activity may have been detrimental. He also said he has every expectation that with the offseason to rest, Lonzo is going to be ready for camp. He sort of seemed dismissive of the Kap take that the Bulls organization is so worried about the knee that they are going to have to address the PG position in the offseason.

I'm no doctor, so I'm not sure what to make of that, but I figured I'd pass it along.

[khufure]

Some cheap UFA options we can target to help shore up the PG position:
- Goran Dragic
- Austin Rivers
- Dennis Schroder
- Jevon Carter
- Rondo

I'd be interested in Jevon Carter, also because it makes Milwaukee weaker. Add Tyus Jones & Rubio & Jalen Brunson to your list. Not sure how feasible some of those are. Gotta be more feasible than Schroeder, or take 2 Rondo. (To be fair both of those guys can play, just dunno about their headspace).

[khufure]

I listened to the NBC Sports Chicago Bulls podcast yesterday w/KC Johnson. Take this for whatever it's worth, but he says the surgery successfully resolved the meniscus issue, and that his understanding is the lingering issue is that the bone bruise just isn't healing. He said that the only way to heal a bone bruise is rest, which seemed to suggest that the repeated efforts to ramp-up Lonzo's physical activity may have been detrimental. He also said he has every expectation that with the offseason to rest, Lonzo is going to be ready for camp. He sort of seemed dismissive of the Kap take that the Bulls organization is so worried about the knee that they are going to have to address the PG position in the offseason.

I'm no doctor, so I'm not sure what to make of that, but I figured I'd pass it along.

That's what I was assuming based on the MRI secondary tests and lack of other disclosure. but it's good to hear more confirmation the knee is sound. Unknown recovery time is in line with a bone bruise. Another thing 'in line' is the knee jerk media & fan wringing of hands woe-is-me reactions on realgm. Maybe it will mean the Bulls get more PG depth, 3pt shooting, and defense?

[Ice Man]

I don't ever recall KC writing something that the Bulls organization would not want printed, until such news was already out. He wasn't the person reporting that Rose would miss the 2013 season, or that Jo's knee problem was more serious than the organization suggested, or that Thibs and the FO were fighting, or that Jimmy and Hoiberg were feuding. And of course, he famously wrote that the Bulls would not be trading Lu Deng the day before the Bulls traded Lu Deng.

To claim that KC's report has now eliminated all concerns, and that anybody continuing to be worried has been refuted and is thus a Chicken Little is to misunderstand both KC's history, and how the Chicago Bulls communicate.

May Ball ends up just fine. No way I am taking one journalist's word on that, though, particularly given his reporting history.

[khufure]

Sorry, but I don't trust KC's report. I don't ever recall him writing something that the Bulls organization would not want printed, until such news was already out. He wasn't the person reporting that Rose would miss the 2013 season, or that Jo's knee problem was more serious than the organization suggested, or that Thibs and the FO were fighting, or that Jimmy and Hoiberg were feuding.

To claim that KC's report has now eliminated all concerns, and that anybody continuing to be worried has been refuted and is thus a Chicken Little is to misunderstand both KC's history, and how the Chicago Bulls communicate.

Why jump to this conclusion? KC is a bit of a mouthpiece for the Bulls, but I can't remember him being wrong about this kind of thing in the past. For medical (etc. non opinion) he tells facts.

Here's a video released from a doctor at the time of the injury. Note he stresses that the recovery time is an unknown

Watch on YouTube

Edit: updated video

Watch on YouTube

[jnrjr79]

I don't ever recall KC writing something that the Bulls organization would not want printed, until such news was already out. He wasn't the person reporting that Rose would miss the 2013 season, or that Jo's knee problem was more serious than the organization suggested, or that Thibs and the FO were fighting, or that Jimmy and Hoiberg were feuding. And of course, he famously wrote that the Bulls would not be trading Lu Deng the day before the Bulls traded Lu Deng.

To claim that KC's report has now eliminated all concerns, and that anybody continuing to be worried has been refuted and is thus a Chicken Little is to misunderstand both KC's history, and how the Chicago Bulls communicate.

May Ball ends up just fine. No way I am taking one journalist's word on that, though, particularly given his reporting history.

Who claimed that?

[MikeDC]

Bone bruises have an indefinite recovery time, but there are still some known parameters about what's normal, and Ball is kind of past them. That's cause for concern.

The implication that ramp up efforts were detrimental is probably wrong. Since they knew he had this injury, the ramp up was very likely to have been done in a well-controlled manner to account for that possibility. With the right oversight (which should be taken as a given with pro athletes in this situation) exercising is a test. It will reveal if the injury has healed, not cause further injury. So what happens, is every few weeks, they test to see if it's healed and ... nope, it isn't.

Why jump to this conclusion? KC is a bit of a mouthpiece for the Bulls, but I can't remember him being wrong about this kind of thing in the past. For medical (etc. non opinion) he tells facts.

Guess you maybe aren't old enough to remember when he was guilelessly parroting the Bulls press release throwing shade on Luol Deng for not playing through what turned out to be a stress fracture in his tibia (i.e. a broken leg!).

He's tells facts.... selectively.

[Ice Man]

Who claimed that?

From khfuture's post -

Another thing 'in line' is the knee jerk media & fan wringing of hands woe-is-me reactions on realgm.

[khufure]

Who claimed that?

From khfuture's post -

Another thing 'in line' is the knee jerk media & fan wringing of hands woe-is-me reactions on realgm.

You posted before mine. Mine was a reply. You're using my reply as a reason for the origin of your claim? If you're gonna converse like that then I just won't bother replying in the future. Not interested in this kind of logic.

KC definitely doesn't know everything, or since he likes keeping his job and relationship to players is he able to talk about everything. But when he makes a fact statement I can't recall it ever being a lie. Based on KC's statement I believe the Bulls think Lonzo Ball's knee is healthy. And RealGM posters, fans, and especially the media are as I described.