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"Weak link" team-building

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nomorezorro
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"Weak link" team-building 

Post#1 » by nomorezorro » Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:25 pm

so the other day, john hollinger wrote an article about the success of the celtics despite jayson tatum's failure to truly ascend into superduperstardom, and it hit a lot of points that echoed my own thoughts about the best way to build a team without a slam-dunk top-tier player.

These Celtics, on the other hand, are winning because of the depth of talent on their roster, an eight-deep collection of good-to-excellent players who provide an opponent with few weak links to attack.

They may not have a Giannis or a LeBron, but they have two All-Star-caliber wings, seven All-Defense-caliber defenders in their top eight and the ability to play big or small depending on the opponent. The roster has enough resilience to survive injuries to Robert Williams and Marcus Smart; enough defensive flexibility to have rock-solid schemes for Kevin Durant, Giannis and Steph Curry; and enough offensive pressure points to attack weak defenders anywhere on the floor.

This, in turn, may be more of a sign of the league’s evolution than any unique element of this particular Celtics team. A year ago, for instance, Phoenix nearly pulled off a similar feat, finishing two wins from the title with a similar setup. The Suns followed that up with a league-best 64 wins this season. Devin Booker is great, but he’s in a similar class with Tatum — a top-10 guy, but not quite in the league’s uppermost crust. Yet Phoenix won big by offering opponents few weaknesses to probe. ...

And I think there is something telling and significant about that. In the switch-heavy, supermax-paying, 3-point spacing NBA of 2022, a team’s postseason success is driven more by the strength of its weakest link and less by the greatness of its best player.


now obviously, we're starting at a deficit because the top-end talent on the bulls is two minus wing defenders, rather than two assets like tatum/brown. but because you can't be picky about your stars, you have to be particularly picky about your supporting cast.

and i realize that, on the face of it, trying to assemble a roster free of "weak links" seems obvious — but in practice, it means placing a greater value on an unremarkable but well-rounded player than you would on a "more talented" player with a glaring weakness. it's the principle that made max struss playable this offseason but kept duncan robinson chained to the bench. also, you can't just hope that one good offensive player and one good defensive player will balance each other out; you have to be hypersensitive to how each individual piece might be exploited.

with that in mind, here's how i look at our prospective roster for next season:

in:
lavine/derozan - top-end talent. nobody else on the roster can be worse than them defensively
lonzo ball - plus defender, plus shooter, plus transition ballhandler
alex caruso - plus defender. not a non-entity on offense, but on the low end of acceptable as a shooting threat. no other perimeter player can be worse than him offensively

out:
nikola vucevic - defensive liability (could hypothetically get by in a vacuum, but he's not good enough to get away with him as your third-worst defender)
javonte green - offensive liability (could be kept as a fringe rotation guy/specialist, but not someone you want in a playoff rotation)
coby white - defensive liability

on the bubble:
patrick williams - theoretically an ideal piece in a no-weak-link system. in practice, must be more of an impact defender and must ramp up his volume offensively. has to at least be a willing catch-and-shoot threat.
ayo dosumunu - solid defense, ok offense, needs to ramp up volume to secure a spot.

missing pieces:
2 bigs — both plus players defensively, no more than one of whom is a 'traditional' big. ideally, both can contribute on offense, even if just as rim runners/lob threats. only other roster slot in which a caruso-level offensive player is plausibly acceptable.
1-2 wings — ideally both at least average shooters and defenders. you can probably sacrifice a little bit of defense for a little more shooting for one of them, given the dynamics of the current roster. you maybe even want that player to be able to serve as a secondary offensive initiator?

now, i turn to you, the humble forum reader...

which potentially available free agents and trade targets do you think would fit in with the objective of constructing a team with as few weak links as possible?
are there players whose classifications you agree or disagree with?
do you think this is a reasonable approach to team-building, or is chasing the "boston model" simply another chapter in delusional roster construction that's chasing after the impossible-to-replicate magic of a recently successful team?
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#2 » by kodo » Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:58 pm

Not really sure why Hollinger thinks this is some new thought of his, plenty of teams have won without a top 10 player.

Billups Pistons. 2011 Mavericks. 2011 Dirk was on the bench in the all-star game. 2014 Spurs, Duncan was not a top 10 player. He averaged 15 points 9 boards, he was 37. '89 Pistons had zero players make the All-NBA team.

The "star" status is 99% about offense, so the star method is predicated on offense. Teams have won on defense, and those aren't reliant on having the best/most stars. But the commonality with all those teams above is that they were defensive teams, and so are this year's Celtics. Phoenix is also a top 4 defense. So how good / not good Tatum or Booker are on offense isn't the most important factor in them winning.

Do we have a top 4 defensive team here in Chicago? Not without changes although some guys can clearly contribute in that area.
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#3 » by nomorezorro » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:08 am

the full article acknowledges the "no-star" championship winner is something with plenty of precedent, mentioning all of those teams. the thought is the nature of the modern game makes it easier for a "no-star" team to rise to the top.

you'd definitely be within reason to challenge that perception — right now the warriors have the upper hand in the finals on the back of a superduperstar performance by curry, and who knows how differently things play out if middleton is healthy, or kawhi is — but i think it's a reasonable theory given the degree to which the playoffs have become about attacking matchups
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#4 » by kulaz3000 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:14 am

This is probably the reason why the front office at least publicly have said they want to run it back. Seeing the Suns, and then this year with the Celtics, and probably also the likes of the Heat, where you don't need a super star to be a legitimate title contender anymore, you can do so with two all-star who may not be elite, but have a great supporting cast. We aren't that far off with that, however, we definitely do need to add better depth.
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#5 » by MrSparkle » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:16 am

I would say that Boston definitely has weak links in terms of shooting/spacing. But Brown, Smart and Grant have tremendously overcome it with career-high 3P seasons, not to mention Horford.

Also Patrick and Ayo are really young. For perspective, Grant Williams played 11 MPG last year. Now he's 23yo, and made a big jump in his 3rd year.

Pritchard plays 13 MPG, which is probably what Ayo should be doing (not 28 MPG) at this stage. But ... injuries. And Coby's lack of progress didn't help.
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#6 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:34 am

Lonzo is impact defender. I strong believe Williams can be impact defender. I know Zach is good defender, but it’s not like you can isolate him and go to work. His on ball defense is good. His rotations are bad. DeRozan just bad all around although I have seen him play decent defense when tries. Vuc can’t defend in space and can’t block shots. Great on the defensive boards though. Decent post defender. Caruso and Ayo are both legit defender. Caruso elite like Ball.

Donovan has to demand more out of our two scoring wings. Neither one is physically unable to defend.
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#7 » by FriedRise » Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:36 pm

Our team is built different, in that our weaknesses are directly covered by the strengths of others.

As we found out last season, the parts aren't really replaceable. When somebody goes down, their impact in that specific field is directly affected. Without Zo and Caruso, we sucked defensively. That was a direct impact. When Zach got injured, our offense went down the drain. Same thing.

It's just what happens when you only have one-way players - who are obviously great at what they do but limited in other things. I think that's also the downside for Billy's philosophy for playing to the players strengths. It's great when everyone's available because the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, but the moment somebody has to miss games, we're back in the deficit. The remaining players aren't gonna be able to fill the hole left by the injured.

But I can't yet fault AKME for it in year one - because you can't just suddenly turn a lottery team into a team full of stars and two-way players, which seems to be the requirement to build a championship level team. It's a multi-year process. You can slowly get there though.
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#8 » by ChettheJet » Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:27 pm

I can see how a team can win without the Big 3 or an MVP. It takes a real team, everybody together, leave the egos at the practice facility and see that there will be games when the best players on the team have to just take a back seat. I can see the Bulls getting to that point if Lavine and DeRozan are willing to take that back seat more than they showed this year.

I see Ball as an anchor for the team on both ends. There will be games when he is the prototype PG with 14 assists, there will be other games when he gets 3 assists and scores 28 points because that's how the game played out. Caruso is a key defensively because he is the one that talks, calls out picks and gets there to help. I think Billy has to spend training camp hammering on others doing the same thing. I think if Vuc, PWill and Demar did more of this it would make Zach a better defender because he wouldn't be looking for things in his way, he'd know they were coming and he is athletic enough to adjust on the move. Caruso needs to be the backup PG, not SF or PF and be paired with a genuine shooter. If that's somebody new or it means Lavine then that's how the rotation needs to go.

As a rookie there was total agreement that PWill had the ability on defense, he guarded some of the top scorers in the league and they admitted they knew he was out there. Unless somebody wants to claim he lost that while injured, that's the minimum kind of defender he can be. It's actually difficult to gauge his offense just off his rookie year. In 20 games last year he still didn't have Lonzo out there at all and Caruso only briefly. I think he'd benefit from Lonzo running the offense rather than waiting on Demar and Zach to try and make their own play. Yes Patrick needs to be more aggressive but Billy has to get him out of the corner and impress upon the other 4 guys that they need to make him part of the plays.

Someone made the point that Ayo should play but until he makes some serious steps up in shooting, decision making with the ball and all around play that should be 10 MPG not 30. If Ball and Caruso are healthy and Coby is the backup SG or they get someone else Ayo should be a spot player


I'm not resigned to trading Vuc, but that can't be the only move. If they don't think Coby can be the scorer off the bench than he's on the move too. He's fairly easy to replace as a shooter, Vuc leaves a massive hole at the 5 and move number 2 or 3 is finding a starting center. Mo Bamba seems like the smallest deal to make. Capela would be a more major move and give you more right away. Gobert is going to cost you the most in value and dollars and if you want to include PWill in this you just shift your massive hole over to the 4. I do not see the sense in that.

Javonte Green isn't a key piece but when you're filling the 11 to 15 slots on the roster of a playoff bound team, he and I think TBJ are the type of guys you need and since you've got them you save yourself the trouble of going out to get guys of that type who will maintain team chemistry.
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Re: "Weak link" team-building 

Post#9 » by chitownsports4ever » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:04 pm

FriedRise wrote:Our team is built different, in that our weaknesses are directly covered by the strengths of others.

As we found out last season, the parts aren't really replaceable. When somebody goes down, their impact in that specific field is directly affected. Without Zo and Caruso, we sucked defensively. That was a direct impact. When Zach got injured, our offense went down the drain. Same thing.

It's just what happens when you only have one-way players - who are obviously great at what they do but limited in other things. I think that's also the downside for Billy's philosophy for playing to the players strengths. It's great when everyone's available because the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, but the moment somebody has to miss games, we're back in the deficit. The remaining players aren't gonna be able to fill the hole left by the injured.

But I can't yet fault AKME for it in year one - because you can't just suddenly turn a lottery team into a team full of stars and two-way players, which seems to be the requirement to build a championship level team. It's a multi-year process. You can slowly get there though.


We came into the season expecting to be an up tempo team because we knew we didn't have the size or rebounding but we had plenty of perimeter players. The season starts and is going exactly as hoped but then those perimeter players started getting hurt starting with our biggest and most physical players .

In the first months I think the team had really bought into Zach and Demar leading the offense and Zo and AC spearheading the defense considering that the team was getting to know each other with so many new faces it wasn't a bad idea. After the first year everyone knows each other and what to expect and can assume more ownership of each.
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