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Don't shoot the messenger but Vuc ranked in the Top 10 in the NBA in defensive rating last year:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2023-nba-individual-defensive-rating-rankings

Now before the hot takes about that stat being meaningless, look at the guys up and down that list and take your Vuc bias away. That stat seems to me to be pretty accurate based on how good defensively the rest of the guys are surrounding him. I think the biggest reason Vuc gets so much hate on defense is because he doesn't block shots, but that is the most overrated defensive stat in the new age of 3's being launched all over the place.

Defensive rebounding is a much more important stat than blocks, because it ENDS a possession. Even blocks don't necessarily do that. Vuc is an ELITE defensive rebounder (top 5 last year), which is why he rates out as a much better defender than anyone gives him credit for. Bulls were Top 5 in defensive rating last year as well, so adding 2 tough 3&D guys should enable us to be at the top of the league defensively this year again.

ChiTownNation wrote:Don't shoot the messenger but Vuc ranked in the Top 10 in the NBA in defensive rating last year:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2023-nba-individual-defensive-rating-rankings

Now before the hot takes about that stat being meaningless, look at the guys up and down that list and take your Vuc bias away. That stat seems to me to be pretty accurate based on how good defensively the rest of the guys are surrounding him. I think the biggest reason Vuc gets so much hate on defense is because he doesn't block shots, but that is the most overrated defensive stat in the new age of 3's being launched all over the place.

Defensive rebounding is a much more important stat than blocks, because it ENDS a possession. Even blocks don't necessarily do that. Vuc is an ELITE defensive rebounder (top 5 last year), which is why he rates out as a much better defender than anyone gives him credit for. Bulls were Top 5 in defensive rating last year as well, so adding 2 tough 3&D guys should enable us to be at the top of the league defensively this year again.

Before this thread gets all crazy, I want to go on record as saying that Vuc’s rep as a poor defender has always been a bit overblown to me. There are clearly times where he could/should be better. But he is nowhere near as bad as he is often made out to be on this board. Now, let the bashing commence!!

Betta Bulleavit wrote:

ChiTownNation wrote:Don't shoot the messenger but Vuc ranked in the Top 10 in the NBA in defensive rating last year:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2023-nba-individual-defensive-rating-rankings

Now before the hot takes about that stat being meaningless, look at the guys up and down that list and take your Vuc bias away. That stat seems to me to be pretty accurate based on how good defensively the rest of the guys are surrounding him. I think the biggest reason Vuc gets so much hate on defense is because he doesn't block shots, but that is the most overrated defensive stat in the new age of 3's being launched all over the place.

Defensive rebounding is a much more important stat than blocks, because it ENDS a possession. Even blocks don't necessarily do that. Vuc is an ELITE defensive rebounder (top 5 last year), which is why he rates out as a much better defender than anyone gives him credit for. Bulls were Top 5 in defensive rating last year as well, so adding 2 tough 3&D guys should enable us to be at the top of the league defensively this year again.

Before this thread gets all crazy, I want to go on record as saying that Vuc’s rep as a poor defender has always been a bit overblown to me. There are clearly times where he could/should be better. But he is nowhere near as bad as he is often made out to be on this board. Now, let the bashing commence!!

Vuc is a classic player who understands defense and does actually try but his lack of athleticism and natural instincts causes his ‘issues’.

I’ve never really had a problem with his defense to be honest. Any issues to be are purely reputation based. As you said, we definitely could have a better defensive C but it’s right down the list of issues for me.

That reference has a pretty ridiculous minimum 2000 minutes to qualify for that ranking. To put it in context, Vuc was actually tied for 5th/6th on our team, including being soundly beat by both Drummond and Tony Bradley. Vuc was 37th in the league overall in this stat. Fun fact, Andre Drummond was #1 in the NBA in defensive rating for players who played at least 125 minutes on the season.

Reputation is hard to shake off. I’m really not worried about our defense, like at all. We need to get better offensively.

Vuc needs a wirey athletic PF next to him. I don’t think PW really is that person

I've come to realize that offensive and defensive stats are, at least in the case of the Bulls, intertwined. Our defense looks better, at least in part, because we don't offensive rebound to run back. Our defense is also somewhat aided by the fact that our offense is bogged down by deliberate dribbling by Derozan and our over-passing because our role players were afraid to shoot.

On Vuc. He does try on defense, but is very exploitable to competent scheming.

ChiCitySPORTS#1 wrote:Vuc needs a wirey athletic PF next to him. I don’t think PW really is that person

He’s not the issue

League Circles wrote:That reference has a pretty ridiculous minimum 2000 minutes to qualify for that ranking. To put it in context, Vuc was actually tied for 5th/6th on our team, including being soundly beat by both Drummond and Tony Bradley. Vuc was 37th in the league overall in this stat. Fun fact, Andre Drummond was #1 in the NBA in defensive rating for players who played at least 125 minutes on the season.

Yup. Very few players played that many. Pat is #22 on that list.

Defensive rating isn't a bad stat, it just shouldn't be used to evaluate how good a single player is defensively.

2weekswithpay wrote:Defensive rating isn't a bad stat, it just shouldn't be used to evaluate how good a single player is defensively.

it is basically calculated with blocks, steals, deflections and blow-bys. i was not aware that somebody has been tracking blow-bys for at least the last 20 years, especially given how subjective it is, but apparently that is the case

2weekswithpay wrote:Defensive rating isn't a bad stat, it just shouldn't be used to evaluate how good a single player is defensively.

I think we could probably say that about pretty much all of these stats. On a standalone basis, they can all be pretty useless. They’re typically most useful when assessed in conjunction with one another.

dice wrote:

2weekswithpay wrote:Defensive rating isn't a bad stat, it just shouldn't be used to evaluate how good a single player is defensively.

it is basically calculated with blocks, steals, deflections and blow-bys. i was not aware that somebody has been tracking blow-bys for at least the last 20 years, especially given how subjective it is, but apparently that is the case

Not sure about the one the OP linked, but bball reference has it as simply points per 100 given up while on the court.

League Circles wrote:

dice wrote:

2weekswithpay wrote:Defensive rating isn't a bad stat, it just shouldn't be used to evaluate how good a single player is defensively.

it is basically calculated with blocks, steals, deflections and blow-bys. i was not aware that somebody has been tracking blow-bys for at least the last 20 years, especially given how subjective it is, but apparently that is the case

Not sure about the one the OP linked, but bball reference has it as simply points per 100 given up while on the court.

i assume that the calculation for that is something more than simply points scored by the guy the player is guarding

dice wrote:

League Circles wrote:

dice wrote:it is basically calculated with blocks, steals, deflections and blow-bys. i was not aware that somebody has been tracking blow-bys for at least the last 20 years, especially given how subjective it is, but apparently that is the case

Not sure about the one the OP linked, but bball reference has it as simply points per 100 given up while on the court.

i assume that the calculation for that is something more than simply points scored by the guy the player is guarding

I may be mistaken, but I assumed it was just the team's defensive ranking while the player was on the court

Blasphemy!

League Circles wrote:

dice wrote:

League Circles wrote:Not sure about the one the OP linked, but bball reference has it as simply points per 100 given up while on the court.

i assume that the calculation for that is something more than simply points scored by the guy the player is guarding

I may be mistaken, but I assumed it was just the team's defensive ranking while the player was on the court

I was wrong. It is indeed one of those absurd composite stats that uses presumptions to give desperate fans what they want.

PJSteven22 wrote:

ChiCitySPORTS#1 wrote:Vuc needs a wirey athletic PF next to him. I don’t think PW really is that person

He’s not the issue

Well, you need some shot blocking out of your center and power forward, and if it’s not coming from him it has to be the other.

ChiCitySPORTS#1 wrote:

PJSteven22 wrote:

ChiCitySPORTS#1 wrote:Vuc needs a wirey athletic PF next to him. I don’t think PW really is that person

He’s not the issue

Well, you need some shot blocking out of your center and power forward, and if it’s not coming from him it has to be the other.

Pat excels at help defense but he can’t do that because he has to guard the POA since Demar isn’t that good on defense. I’ve been saying this for a while they have to get rid of either Demar or Vuc.

Where does Marco rank?