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The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:40 pm
by League Circles
We now have three "legit" rotation centers all of which we're committed to in some sense, all with their pros and cons. Like many, I'm pleasantly surprised at Collins. Like some, I think Smith has had a really nice year. Personally I think Smith is better than Collins and has more potential, but obviously Zach has been playing well lately.
I think Vuc is the worst of the three, and he's obviously the oldest by far. We will try to trade him again this summer but chances are pretty decent that he'll be back IMO.
I was really disappointed to see Smith get a DNP-CD last night. Is there an injury I'm unaware of or is he just benched indefinitely because Vuc is back????
So what should we do this year and next, assuming no trades of any of the three.
Maaaaaybe Smith and/or Collins can olay a little bit at the 4 to clear the logjam a bit.
For the rest of the season I'd basically start Vuc (to tank) and play him an absolute max of 24 mpg, then try hard to trade him this summer. But if/when that fails, I'd prefer him to get the fewest minutes of the three guys (like 10 mpg max), then literally just waive him after next season's trade deadline if he's still here.
Thoughts on playing time and role for these guys assuming they're all here and healthy through the trade deadline next season?
Having the three of them would also present a big problem getting minutes next year if we happen to draft a big like Maluach.
I know many of you will dismiss this because you assume a trade will come, but it's still an issue for the rest of this season regardless, and because of their contracts and how many roster spots we (don't) project to have, I think trades are a lot less likely than some of you will, despite what we'd want.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:52 pm
by dougthonus
I don't know what the deal is with Smith. I don't know if he's killing us quietly in terms of some things which aren't obvious to the naked eye, but the coach can't stand (ie, not following patterns that we aren't aware of defensively or offensively), but his play time doesn't seem to match up to his impact to me on the eye test.
Zach Collins seemed solid to me, I think Wemby just stole any possibility for him in SA.
I agree Vuc is the worst.
I would be looking to move Vuc for a 20M dead salary and a 2nd rounder where the move is overall salary neutral but he can maybe help another team and just clear the log jam for us and the concern of bad locker room vibes. Not sure how it is because I'm not there but his on court energy is often poor, and his verbal discussion of his game seems highly demanding relative to his ability.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:53 pm
by sco
Great OP LC!
I saw Smith last night had some sort of ice/wrap on his knee, so maybe he is dealing with an injury.
What was telling last night with Vuc back was just how much worse we are with him out there. The combination of his needing to be fed the ball to contribute with how little else he contributes when he doesn't have the ball (compared to Smith/Collins) is really detrimental to the team's overall level of play.
IDK what to do if we can't trade Vuc in the offseason. Maybe buy him out? Doubt AK would do that. All we could hope to do is trade him at the deadline. I might even be inclined to take a longer contract back, if it was for a servicable player.
Regarding a guy like Maluach, I think drafting him or any other rim running shot blocker with our 1st will be a bad move. Those guys are gettable later or for little money in FA.
Our best case scenario next season at C is that we trade Vuc (even for no draft compensation) and roll with Collins/Smith. While they are both middling, I think on a 48 minutes basis, they might be around middle of the pack in terms of production at C. If somehow they improve a couple % on 3 balls, there's some upside.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:56 pm
by sco
dougthonus wrote:I don't know what the deal is with Smith. I don't know if he's killing us quietly in terms of some things which aren't obvious to the naked eye, but the coach can't stand (ie, not following patterns that we aren't aware of defensively or offensively), but his play time doesn't seem to match up to his impact to me on the eye test.
Zach Collins seemed solid to me, I think Wemby just stole any possibility for him in SA.
I agree Vuc is the worst.
I would be looking to move Vuc for a 20M dead salary and a 2nd rounder where the move is overall salary neutral but he can maybe help another team and just clear the log jam for us and the concern of bad locker room vibes. Not sure how it is because I'm not there but his on court energy is often poor, and his verbal discussion of his game seems highly demanding relative to his ability.
I can't believe, especially with Vuc back, that BD doesn't give Smith time at the PF spot. BD's treatment of Smith reminds me of how he treated Derrick Jones Jr.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:59 pm
by Guru
Vuc is unquestionably the best. It was evident when he was in. Collins and Smith have just fragments of what he brings. Long term they are fine there but he's better.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:00 pm
by jnrjr79
dougthonus wrote:I don't know what the deal is with Smith. I don't know if he's killing us quietly in terms of some things which aren't obvious to the naked eye, but the coach can't stand (ie, not following patterns that we aren't aware of defensively or offensively), but his play time doesn't seem to match up to his impact to me on the eye test.
Zach Collins seemed solid to me, I think Wemby just stole any possibility for him in SA.
I agree Vuc is the worst.
I would be looking to move Vuc for a 20M dead salary and a 2nd rounder where the move is overall salary neutral but he can maybe help another team and just clear the log jam for us and the concern of bad locker room vibes. Not sure how it is because I'm not there but his on court energy is often poor, and his verbal discussion of his game seems highly demanding relative to his ability.
I would not take on $20M in dead salary if it extends out past Vooch's deal. (I'm not sure if you're implying the Bulls should or if you're saying the same thing). If you can swap and expiring for an expiring and get a 2nd, I'm all for it. Alternatively, just buy him out/waive him and play Collins and Smith next year. Tell him you're doing him a favor so he can join a contender or whatever.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:03 pm
by League Circles
I basically agree with what you guys are saying, but I think the notion of getting "dead salary" etc back for Vuc is very unlikely. First of all, how many players are there in the league that make about 20 million and are worse than Vuc? Are there any? So Ok we'd trade him for two dead 10 million dollar deals you might say? I also think those are more rare than we wish, and then we need to waive somebody.
I think there is zero chance Vuc should or will be bought out. The benefit of that to the Bulls is so low relative to possibly using his contract in some sort of trade before the deadline next year. Even though we already have a bunch of other expiring deals. There may be good reasons why Vuc's deal is more useful in a potential trade (like let's say Collins really plays well and we want to keep him). Who knows, we might make a big deal where we need Vuc's expiring plus Huerter and Carter and even Terry all in one deal.
We all agree on what we want to do with Vuc, I just don't think it's likely to happen so I want to get a sense of playing time for this three headed monster for the next 100 games.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:04 pm
by League Circles
Guru wrote:Vuc is unquestionably the best. It was evident when he was in. Collins and Smith have just fragments of what he brings. Long term they are fine there but he's better.
Man I couldn't disagree more. Collins and Smith are both waaaay better on defense and pretty close on offense.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:05 pm
by WesPeace
We could easily get minutes to all three guys.. Smith and Collins can play PF min.
Vuc 24min, Collins 16min, Smith 8min
Matas 30min, Smith 10min, Collins 8min
Here or there with those minutes..maybe sometimes Phillips get those 8min depends on opponent.
Vucevic will sadly play the most min, because Billy loves him.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:08 pm
by League Circles
WesPeace wrote:We could easily get minutes to all three guys.. Smith and Collins can play PF min.
Vuc 24min, Collins 16min, Smith 8min
Matas 30min, Smith 10min, Collins 8min
Here or there with those minutes..maybe sometimes Phillips get those 8min depends on opponent.
Vucevic will sadly play the most min, because Billy loves him.
Patrick also will and should get decent minutes at PF. Doesn't matter if he doesn't deserve them IMO. We MUST do everything we can to rehabilitate his on-court and trade value considering the length of his deal IMO. Phillips I don't really care about one way or the other.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:49 pm
by DASMACKDOWN
The mess is more Billy Donovan than anything else.
Smith was actually a healthy scratch yesterday. KC during the broadcast when asked how is Billy going to deal with the 3 centers, he said its about sacrifice.
I thought it would have meant Vooch sacrificing minutes but right out the gate for his first game, Vooch played more mins than Collins. Even off the bench.
So the only one being sacrificed is Smith.
This is what I fear even bringing in a center in the draft. Billy Donovan is not going play him. Because he would have Vooch, Collins and Smith all ahead in the pecking order.
Billy Donovan's dream lineups are always 4 small guards and 1 big.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:59 pm
by dougthonus
jnrjr79 wrote:I would not take on $20M in dead salary if it extends out past Vooch's deal. (I'm not sure if you're implying the Bulls should or if you're saying the same thing). If you can swap and expiring for an expiring and get a 2nd, I'm all for it. Alternatively, just buy him out/waive him and play Collins and Smith next year. Tell him you're doing him a favor so he can join a contender or whatever.
I wouldn't take back 20M extra salary for a 2nd either. It was if we find a more worthless contract for a 2nd rounder but of the same length I would do that. I'd also be fine buying him out or waiving him, but I wouldn't want him on the roster.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:07 pm
by jnrjr79
dougthonus wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:I would not take on $20M in dead salary if it extends out past Vooch's deal. (I'm not sure if you're implying the Bulls should or if you're saying the same thing). If you can swap and expiring for an expiring and get a 2nd, I'm all for it. Alternatively, just buy him out/waive him and play Collins and Smith next year. Tell him you're doing him a favor so he can join a contender or whatever.
I wouldn't take back 20M extra salary for a 2nd either. It was if we find a more worthless contract for a 2nd rounder but of the same length I would do that. I'd also be fine buying him out or waiving him, but I wouldn't want him on the roster.
Yeah, I think the question is whether it's worth it to keep him on the roster in the slim hope of doing something useful with his contract at the deadline vs. cutting him to free up minutes for a Collins/Smith center rotation. I'm kinda leaning toward the latter, but I understand the former.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:08 pm
by League Circles
dougthonus wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:I would not take on $20M in dead salary if it extends out past Vooch's deal. (I'm not sure if you're implying the Bulls should or if you're saying the same thing). If you can swap and expiring for an expiring and get a 2nd, I'm all for it. Alternatively, just buy him out/waive him and play Collins and Smith next year. Tell him you're doing him a favor so he can join a contender or whatever.
I wouldn't take back 20M extra salary for a 2nd either. It was if we find a more worthless contract for a 2nd rounder but of the same length I would do that. I'd also be fine buying him out or waiving him, but I wouldn't want him on the roster.
Just to confirm, you'd rather do a buyout or waive him and therefore lose his contract to use in potential trades and lose him as supreme tank commander than risk have him be a cancer in the locker room next year? I wouldn't, but I get it.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:17 pm
by jnrjr79
League Circles wrote:dougthonus wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:I would not take on $20M in dead salary if it extends out past Vooch's deal. (I'm not sure if you're implying the Bulls should or if you're saying the same thing). If you can swap and expiring for an expiring and get a 2nd, I'm all for it. Alternatively, just buy him out/waive him and play Collins and Smith next year. Tell him you're doing him a favor so he can join a contender or whatever.
I wouldn't take back 20M extra salary for a 2nd either. It was if we find a more worthless contract for a 2nd rounder but of the same length I would do that. I'd also be fine buying him out or waiving him, but I wouldn't want him on the roster.
Just to confirm, you'd rather do a buyout or waive him and therefore lose his contract to use in potential trades and lose him as supreme tank commander than risk have him be a cancer in the locker room next year? I wouldn't, but I get it.
Well, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. You refer to him as a "supreme tank commander," meaning that he would be on the floor helping you lose games, while also referring to him as being a risk of a "locker room cancer," which implies you'd be benching him. It seems like only one of these things can be true, though I suppose you could start him until the deadline and then bench him afterward if he's not traded.
But yeah, I see both sides of it, but I can certainly see just being rid of him to be able to focus on Collins and Smith - guys that have a shot to be around after next season. I don't think relegating him to the 3rd string works, so if you do keep him, I think you have to be willing to buy him out post-deadline if he isn't moved.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:27 pm
by League Circles
jnrjr79 wrote:League Circles wrote:dougthonus wrote:
I wouldn't take back 20M extra salary for a 2nd either. It was if we find a more worthless contract for a 2nd rounder but of the same length I would do that. I'd also be fine buying him out or waiving him, but I wouldn't want him on the roster.
Just to confirm, you'd rather do a buyout or waive him and therefore lose his contract to use in potential trades and lose him as supreme tank commander than risk have him be a cancer in the locker room next year? I wouldn't, but I get it.
Well, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. You refer to him as a "supreme tank commander," meaning that he would be on the floor helping you lose games, while also referring to him as being a risk of a "locker room cancer," which implies you'd be benching him. It seems like only one of these things can be true, though I suppose you could start him until the deadline and then bench him afterward if he's not traded.
But yeah, I see both sides of it, but I can certainly see just being rid of him to be able to focus on Collins and Smith - guys that have a shot to be around after next season. I don't think relegating him to the 3rd string works, so if you do keep him, I think you have to be willing to buy him out post-deadline if he isn't moved.
You're kinda right about the implied contradiction, but basically, assuming both Smith and Collins are here, I think any minutes under like 28 mpg for Vuc will cause him to be sour and therefore a bad influence on our other guys and also annoying to watch, while at the same time, any minutes above 0 mpg helps us be worse and lose more than if the other two took all the minutes. I like a foot in both lanes, so barring trade or draft of a C, I'd start Vuc and play him just enough minutes to nominally keep his "trade value" (mostly just filler to match contracts) afloat, while also "helping" us lose. Then I'd play Smith and Collins the rest. Which is not a good overall option, hence the thread. I think Smith, and maybe also Collins can play some 4, but I don't really think I want them to, cause I want to see them at C as much as possible for evaluation purposes.
This situation sucks in a predictable way which is one of several big reasons I didn't really want to trade Lavine for a package like this, but what's done is done.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:55 pm
by dougthonus
jnrjr79 wrote:dougthonus wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:I would not take on $20M in dead salary if it extends out past Vooch's deal. (I'm not sure if you're implying the Bulls should or if you're saying the same thing). If you can swap and expiring for an expiring and get a 2nd, I'm all for it. Alternatively, just buy him out/waive him and play Collins and Smith next year. Tell him you're doing him a favor so he can join a contender or whatever.
I wouldn't take back 20M extra salary for a 2nd either. It was if we find a more worthless contract for a 2nd rounder but of the same length I would do that. I'd also be fine buying him out or waiving him, but I wouldn't want him on the roster.
Yeah, I think the question is whether it's worth it to keep him on the roster in the slim hope of doing something useful with his contract at the deadline vs. cutting him to free up minutes for a Collins/Smith center rotation. I'm kinda leaning toward the latter, but I understand the former.
You already have Huerter, Collins, Ball, Ayo, and Coby as expiring deals, so I don't think there's much value to having him in that role.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:05 pm
by MrSparkle
Should try to give Vuc away on draft night. Even AK has to realize at this point he’s a toxic starter on the court.
Soon as he returns to the starting 5, let’s watch some discord. I could see, Utah or Brooklyn taking him as an expiring tank asset. We might have to give up Ayo or Coby to dump the deal.
Personally I’d just keep him on the bench, but the problem is he helps you win games from there.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:32 pm
by League Circles
MrSparkle wrote:Should try to give Vuc away on draft night. Even AK has to realize at this point he’s a toxic starter on the court.
Soon as he returns to the starting 5, let’s watch some discord. I could see, Utah or Brooklyn taking him as an expiring tank asset. We might have to give up Ayo or Coby to dump the deal.
Personally I’d just keep him on the bench, but the problem is he helps you win games from there.
0% chance anyone takes him for free. Nobody is using cap space to absorb Vuc unless we give them something we shouldn't.
Re: The mess at center
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:48 pm
by Dominator83
This team is alot more fun to watch when we don't have to watch Vooch and Patrick