Ball vs Ayo trade

[League Circles]

I think considering the emergence of Giddey, and the increasing likelihood that Coby and even Jones are kept due to increasingly strong play, that most would agree that we're starting to look a bit crowded on the perimeter for next year, and that the skills of Ball and Ayo, at least offensively, are starting to look like they might be less important than they previously were. Considering it's unlikely that they are both here beyond their current deals, I think we should look to trade at least one of them this summer and let the other guy play the "utility glue guy perimeter defender" role.

Who do you think is likely worth more in trade?

Who do you like for us more long term (if one were to stay for their next contract)?

Is Ball even eligible for trade or do we have to wait til like December 15th or whatever due to his new deal?

[MGB8]

Anyone is tradeable for the right offer, yet I don’t get the notion of trading them just to trade them.

I also don’t see a roster balance issue.

Giddey - forward on defense (3/4), point on offense, primarily on ball, can play well splitting ball handling duties.

Ball - wing on defense (2/3, some 1s and 4s), can play primary point but versatile on offense, adds good spacing / can play primarily off ball if you want him to.

Ayo - wing on defense (1-3), can play some primary point but not yet great at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler. Ok off ball but needs some work - not a top offensive option.

White - Guard on defense (1/2), can play some primary point but inconsistent at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler, adds spacing and can be a top offensive option (though not elite)

Tre Jones - Guard in defense (1/2j, best on-ball as primary ball handler, not a high level scorer but playable.

So you have 3 guards who can rotate, a wing, and a point forward. The wing has a different career window.

Even assuming Jones is in longer term plans, you have minutes for all of them - Jones and White splitting time at the 1/2-defense, Ayo and Ball at the 2/3-defense, Giddey and Ball at the 3 defense, with Giddey also getting some time at the 4-defense.

[MGB8]

TLDR version - If some team is interested in any player on the Bulls, and that trade makes sense (both in terms of shorter and longer term / contract consideration)… you talk to them. But no logjam that would require “looking to trade” any guy, nor is any player so good that they can’t be moved.

Now, if contractually a guy doesn’t work in terms of keeping, so no mater what we aren’t going to resign them (because player will get offered more than what we aren’t willing to pay)… then you move them for an asset to avoid losing them for nothing, if you can.

[League Circles]

Anyone is tradeable for the right offer, yet I don’t get the notion of trading them just to trade them.

I also don’t see a roster balance issue.

Giddey - forward on defense (3/4), point on offense, primarily on ball, can play well splitting ball handling duties.

Ball - wing on defense (2/3, some 1s and 4s), can play primary point but versatile on offense, adds good spacing / can play primarily off ball if you want him to.

Ayo - wing on defense (1-3), can play some primary point but not yet great at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler. Ok off ball but needs some work - not a top offensive option.

White - Guard on defense (1/2), can play some primary point but inconsistent at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler, adds spacing and can be a top offensive option (though not elite)

Tre Jones - Guard in defense (1/2j, best on-ball as primary ball handler, not a high level scorer but playable.

So you have 3 guards who can rotate, a wing, and a point forward. The wing has a different career window.

Even assuming Jones is in longer term plans, you have minutes for all of them - Jones and White splitting time at the 1/2-defense, Ayo and Ball at the 2/3-defense, Giddey and Ball at the 3 defense, with Giddey also getting some time at the 4-defense.

I normally don't ever entertain trading for the sake of trading, but I think most of us agree that we should be trying to be good in 2026-27 and beyond as opposed to next year. So while I'm not looking some crazy distance into the future, the win-loss outlook next year is low priority to me, and if anything shouldn't be inflated unless it's due to a guy that can be here long term. I don't think there is room for both of them long term.

As far as roster balance, I think you're forgetting a few things:

Patrick will play some at the 3 until further notice. He's on a significant 5 year deal. Extremely unlikely (and unwise IMO) to completely bench him or trade him for now.

Huerter is here next year and will probably be in the rotation at the 2 or 3 spot.

We very well might draft a perimeter guy with our FRP who we would want to be in the rotation probably. If not, what's the point?

Minor concerns, but we're paying Carter and Terry decent money next year (because we're stupid) and they can both defend (Terry quite well) and are very acceptable as third string players.

Just to note, this is all inspired by the idea that Jones maybe should and will be back on a multi year deal to run the 2nd team offense from the 1 position. With Coby starting at the 1. I do think if one guy is traded between Ball and Ayo, the other guy may absolutely end up starting at the 2 spot, unless we get really surprising signs from Patrick, Huerter or our FRP instead to justify one of them starting. Or a free agent signing.

[MrSparkle]

I don’t particularly see Ayo nor Ball netting a great asset, but if they do, you move them - that simple.

Generally speaking, Lonzo absolutely doesn’t hurt you in his 15mpg.

Ayo is trickier. I feel like going smaller and not punishing teams with handles and shooting is a dead-end. Tre Jones is an immediate upgrade in that sense, even if he can’t defend and switch as well.

An offensive liability (below-average) at 1-3 hurts extra, unless they’re DPOY caliber (even then, Caruso’s big impact didn’t create some huge swing in wins and losses).

I just don’t think Ayo has much trade value. Could see him being around a while if his market’s dead next year.

[League Circles]

So does anyone know if Ball can be traded?

If he can, would it be a big risk in terms of org rep around the league to kinda screw over a Klutch client like that?

I'm having a hard time deciding on this Ball vs Ayo question which is why I started the thread. I'm hoping that Ball will make the answer clearer depending on how much, and how well, he plays the rest of the season.

[MGB8]

Anyone is tradeable for the right offer, yet I don’t get the notion of trading them just to trade them.

I also don’t see a roster balance issue.

Giddey - forward on defense (3/4), point on offense, primarily on ball, can play well splitting ball handling duties.

Ball - wing on defense (2/3, some 1s and 4s), can play primary point but versatile on offense, adds good spacing / can play primarily off ball if you want him to.

Ayo - wing on defense (1-3), can play some primary point but not yet great at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler. Ok off ball but needs some work - not a top offensive option.

White - Guard on defense (1/2), can play some primary point but inconsistent at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler, adds spacing and can be a top offensive option (though not elite)

Tre Jones - Guard in defense (1/2j, best on-ball as primary ball handler, not a high level scorer but playable.

So you have 3 guards who can rotate, a wing, and a point forward. The wing has a different career window.

Even assuming Jones is in longer term plans, you have minutes for all of them - Jones and White splitting time at the 1/2-defense, Ayo and Ball at the 2/3-defense, Giddey and Ball at the 3 defense, with Giddey also getting some time at the 4-defense.

I normally don't ever entertain trading for the sake of trading, but I think most of us agree that we should be trying to be good in 2026-27 and beyond as opposed to next year. So while I'm not looking some crazy distance into the future, the win-loss outlook next year is low priority to me, and if anything shouldn't be inflated unless it's due to a guy that can be here long term. I don't think there is room for both of them long term.

As far as roster balance, I think you're forgetting a few things:

Patrick will play some at the 3 until further notice. He's on a significant 5 year deal. Extremely unlikely (and unwise IMO) to completely bench him or trade him for now.

Huerter is here next year and will probably be in the rotation at the 2 or 3 spot.

We very well might draft a perimeter guy with our FRP who we would want to be in the rotation probably. If not, what's the point?

Minor concerns, but we're paying Carter and Terry decent money next year (because we're stupid) and they can both defend (Terry quite well) and are very acceptable as third string players.

Just to note, this is all inspired by the idea that Jones maybe should and will be back on a multi year deal to run the 2nd team offense from the 1 position. With Coby starting at the 1. I do think if one guy is traded between Ball and Ayo, the other guy may absolutely end up starting at the 2 spot, unless we get really surprising signs from Patrick, Huerter or our FRP instead to justify one of them starting. Or a free agent signing.

I don’t think being dead set on Patrick playing a lot of minutes at the 3, or 3 and 4, is conducive to winning in 26/27. He maybe be overpaid, but I wouldn’t trade anyone just to ensure that he has minutes open to him. I have even less care if Huerter plays.

I just don’t see anyone on the Bulls as some sort of sure fire “core” player. Maybe Matas, maybe Giddey (though he has weaknesses), Coby can fit with those guys in a nice role, and so can any of the others. So I would be open for business, but I wouldn’t be looking to move anyone just to open up space (absent a determination that we aren’t going to resign the guy, so trade to not have them walk for nothing).

[sco]

Anyone is tradeable for the right offer, yet I don’t get the notion of trading them just to trade them.

I also don’t see a roster balance issue.

Giddey - forward on defense (3/4), point on offense, primarily on ball, can play well splitting ball handling duties.

Ball - wing on defense (2/3, some 1s and 4s), can play primary point but versatile on offense, adds good spacing / can play primarily off ball if you want him to.

Ayo - wing on defense (1-3), can play some primary point but not yet great at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler. Ok off ball but needs some work - not a top offensive option.

White - Guard on defense (1/2), can play some primary point but inconsistent at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler, adds spacing and can be a top offensive option (though not elite)

Tre Jones - Guard in defense (1/2j, best on-ball as primary ball handler, not a high level scorer but playable.

So you have 3 guards who can rotate, a wing, and a point forward. The wing has a different career window.

Even assuming Jones is in longer term plans, you have minutes for all of them - Jones and White splitting time at the 1/2-defense, Ayo and Ball at the 2/3-defense, Giddey and Ball at the 3 defense, with Giddey also getting some time at the 4-defense.

I normally don't ever entertain trading for the sake of trading, but I think most of us agree that we should be trying to be good in 2026-27 and beyond as opposed to next year. So while I'm not looking some crazy distance into the future, the win-loss outlook next year is low priority to me, and if anything shouldn't be inflated unless it's due to a guy that can be here long term. I don't think there is room for both of them long term.

As far as roster balance, I think you're forgetting a few things:

Patrick will play some at the 3 until further notice. He's on a significant 5 year deal. Extremely unlikely (and unwise IMO) to completely bench him or trade him for now.

Huerter is here next year and will probably be in the rotation at the 2 or 3 spot.

We very well might draft a perimeter guy with our FRP who we would want to be in the rotation probably. If not, what's the point?

Minor concerns, but we're paying Carter and Terry decent money next year (because we're stupid) and they can both defend (Terry quite well) and are very acceptable as third string players.

Just to note, this is all inspired by the idea that Jones maybe should and will be back on a multi year deal to run the 2nd team offense from the 1 position. With Coby starting at the 1. I do think if one guy is traded between Ball and Ayo, the other guy may absolutely end up starting at the 2 spot, unless we get really surprising signs from Patrick, Huerter or our FRP instead to justify one of them starting. Or a free agent signing.

I agree with the premise that we have 3 guys with similar skillsets and performance levels. The additional opportunity and consideration is that the draft is before free agency. If the goal is to clear the $ ahead of FA, a draft night deal makes sense. There would need to be a handshake deal in place with Jones, ideally before making the trades because you don't want to trade Ayo/Ball without a degree of certainty that we can keep Jones.

Conceptually, I think Ayo should be traded over Ball because he is closer to a direct overlap with Jones. With Ayo's injury, we probably couldn't get more than a 2nd. Any more than that is gravy. Honestly, if he can be added to a deal that rids us of Carter or Terry, that might be enough.

I hesistate to trade Ball because he can play minutes at the 3 instead of PWill, which should be our biggest goal next season. Pat should be relegated to 18-20 minutes backing up Matas, and honestly, I'd prefer to have some vet min guy battle Pat for even that role.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there may also be a S&T opportunity worth considering for trading Jones, right?

Lastly, I wouldn't be too disappointed if he lost Jones. He's been great, but I don't know that his incremental value over Ball/Ayo is all that great. Ayo has sucked this season, but we can be optimistic that a healthy Ayo is pretty close to Jones.

[Chi town]

Zo is worth nothing until he can show he can stay on the floor.

Ayo will have to play and show he's back next season before having trade value again.

I like Tre Jones better than both due to his calm high IQ play style that we don't have elsewhere on the roster. He competes on every play and I think he will be cheaper than Ayo and probably around 10M like Zo.

Will be interesting to see if AK tries to resign Tre when he already has Ayo and Zo. We are crowded 1-3 with 8 rotation players that gets mins there.

[League Circles]

Anyone is tradeable for the right offer, yet I don’t get the notion of trading them just to trade them.

I also don’t see a roster balance issue.

Giddey - forward on defense (3/4), point on offense, primarily on ball, can play well splitting ball handling duties.

Ball - wing on defense (2/3, some 1s and 4s), can play primary point but versatile on offense, adds good spacing / can play primarily off ball if you want him to.

Ayo - wing on defense (1-3), can play some primary point but not yet great at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler. Ok off ball but needs some work - not a top offensive option.

White - Guard on defense (1/2), can play some primary point but inconsistent at it, works well as 2ndary ball handler, adds spacing and can be a top offensive option (though not elite)

Tre Jones - Guard in defense (1/2j, best on-ball as primary ball handler, not a high level scorer but playable.

So you have 3 guards who can rotate, a wing, and a point forward. The wing has a different career window.

Even assuming Jones is in longer term plans, you have minutes for all of them - Jones and White splitting time at the 1/2-defense, Ayo and Ball at the 2/3-defense, Giddey and Ball at the 3 defense, with Giddey also getting some time at the 4-defense.

I normally don't ever entertain trading for the sake of trading, but I think most of us agree that we should be trying to be good in 2026-27 and beyond as opposed to next year. So while I'm not looking some crazy distance into the future, the win-loss outlook next year is low priority to me, and if anything shouldn't be inflated unless it's due to a guy that can be here long term. I don't think there is room for both of them long term.

As far as roster balance, I think you're forgetting a few things:

Patrick will play some at the 3 until further notice. He's on a significant 5 year deal. Extremely unlikely (and unwise IMO) to completely bench him or trade him for now.

Huerter is here next year and will probably be in the rotation at the 2 or 3 spot.

We very well might draft a perimeter guy with our FRP who we would want to be in the rotation probably. If not, what's the point?

Minor concerns, but we're paying Carter and Terry decent money next year (because we're stupid) and they can both defend (Terry quite well) and are very acceptable as third string players.

Just to note, this is all inspired by the idea that Jones maybe should and will be back on a multi year deal to run the 2nd team offense from the 1 position. With Coby starting at the 1. I do think if one guy is traded between Ball and Ayo, the other guy may absolutely end up starting at the 2 spot, unless we get really surprising signs from Patrick, Huerter or our FRP instead to justify one of them starting. Or a free agent signing.

I don’t think being dead set on Patrick playing a lot of minutes at the 3, or 3 and 4, is conducive to winning in 26/27. He maybe be overpaid, but I wouldn’t trade anyone just to ensure that he has minutes open to him. I have even less care if Huerter plays.

I just don’t see anyone on the Bulls as some sort of sure fire “core” player. Maybe Matas, maybe Giddey (though he has weaknesses), Coby can fit with those guys in a nice role, and so can any of the others. So I would be open for business, but I wouldn’t be looking to move anyone just to open up space (absent a determination that we aren’t going to resign the guy, so trade to not have them walk for nothing).

The likelihood of them walking for nothing after elevating us to a few extra undesirable wins next year is my thought.

To put the roster logjam in more perspective, you can make a strong argument that the Bulls next year project to have the most insanely overpaid 3rd string (or at least 3rd best guy at each of the five positions) imaginable next year:

5: Smith, Collins, then Vuc at 22 mil or whatever
4: Matas, Phillips, then Patrick at 18 mil
3. Giddey, FRP, then Huerter at 18 mil
2: Ayo, Ball, then Terry at 5.4 mil
1: Coby, Jones, then Carter at 6.8 mil

As far as I'm concerned that's basically 70 million in 3rd string players next year that should cost no more than 20 million. Absolute lunacy. Terrible for asset management projections.

[sco]

I normally don't ever entertain trading for the sake of trading, but I think most of us agree that we should be trying to be good in 2026-27 and beyond as opposed to next year. So while I'm not looking some crazy distance into the future, the win-loss outlook next year is low priority to me, and if anything shouldn't be inflated unless it's due to a guy that can be here long term. I don't think there is room for both of them long term.

As far as roster balance, I think you're forgetting a few things:

Patrick will play some at the 3 until further notice. He's on a significant 5 year deal. Extremely unlikely (and unwise IMO) to completely bench him or trade him for now.

Huerter is here next year and will probably be in the rotation at the 2 or 3 spot.

We very well might draft a perimeter guy with our FRP who we would want to be in the rotation probably. If not, what's the point?

Minor concerns, but we're paying Carter and Terry decent money next year (because we're stupid) and they can both defend (Terry quite well) and are very acceptable as third string players.

Just to note, this is all inspired by the idea that Jones maybe should and will be back on a multi year deal to run the 2nd team offense from the 1 position. With Coby starting at the 1. I do think if one guy is traded between Ball and Ayo, the other guy may absolutely end up starting at the 2 spot, unless we get really surprising signs from Patrick, Huerter or our FRP instead to justify one of them starting. Or a free agent signing.

I don’t think being dead set on Patrick playing a lot of minutes at the 3, or 3 and 4, is conducive to winning in 26/27. He maybe be overpaid, but I wouldn’t trade anyone just to ensure that he has minutes open to him. I have even less care if Huerter plays.

I just don’t see anyone on the Bulls as some sort of sure fire “core” player. Maybe Matas, maybe Giddey (though he has weaknesses), Coby can fit with those guys in a nice role, and so can any of the others. So I would be open for business, but I wouldn’t be looking to move anyone just to open up space (absent a determination that we aren’t going to resign the guy, so trade to not have them walk for nothing).

The likelihood of them walking for nothing after elevating us to a few extra undesirable wins next year is my thought.

To put the roster logjam in more perspective, you can make a strong argument that the Bulls next year project to have the most insanely overpaid 3rd string (or at least 3rd best guy at each of the five positions) imaginable next year:

5: Smith, Collins, then Vuc at 22 mil or whatever
4: Matas, Phillips, then Patrick at 18 mil
3. Giddey, FRP, then Huerter at 18 mil
2: Ayo, Ball, then Terry at 5.4 mil
1: Coby, Jones, then Carter at 6.8 mil

As far as I'm concerned that's basically 70 million in 3rd string players next year that should cost no more than 20 million. Absolute lunacy. Terrible for asset management projections.

I could live with the $70M of 3rd stringers over playing them. Much happier leaving them on the bench.

[League Circles]

My main motivation for looking to trade one of these guys is based on creating an opportunity for our FRP while not depreciating the value of any relevant current / future assets. So the key things that could affect this between now and summer trades are how Ball plays and what position guy we draft with our FRP.

[jnrjr79]

I don't really view the Bulls' predicament as Ball vs. Ayo. It's Coby vs. Ayo vs. neither.

Ball is on a cheap deal and hasn't been super available. I'm hopeful he'll be healthy next year and ready for a larger role, but at the moment, he's just in sort of "give you what he can, when he can" mode. He's a luxury that you don't organize your guard rotation around.

The reason it's Coby vs. Ayo vs. neither is that Coby and Ayo are expiring in 2026 and can only be extended for 140% of their final-year salary of their current deal or 140% of the NBA's average salary, whichever is greater (which to my understanding is effectively the MLE based on what Doug has noted in other discussions about this). That's probably enough to extend Ayo. It's not going to be enough for Coby. So now you have to use your projected 2026 cap space to keep him.

This offseason is something of an inflection point. Do you want to intentionally be bad in 2026, get a high draft pick, and then have a bunch of cap space to make deals? In that case, you trade Coby. You might get something decent for him if he continues his hot streak down the stretch, though his value may be limited given the team trading for him will face the same salary limitations when re-signing him. You don't really care about having "too many guards" or whatever because roster fit is secondary to player development and accumulating losses to max your draft pick. Alternatively, while this might not be prudent, the Bulls will be well-situated to deal some combination of Coby, Ayo, the guys received in the Zach trade, draft capital, expiring salary, etc. to go big game hunting. That sure seems like something AK would historically be interested in doing. For the first time in a while, they do have a decent number of assets to do something like this.

The plan I'm worried about is essentially "run it back," because it could lock you in to a mediocre roster for a while. Let's say you use the draft pick and bring the roster back, more or less. You're going to be good enough to screw up next year's pick (maybe even if you do end up unloading guys at the trade deadline), but not good enough to meaningfully make any playoff noise. Coby has a good year, so you use a huge chunk of 2026 cap space to re-sign him. You also extend Ayo. Now what?

The Bulls have a ton of different paths they could take right now and it'll be pretty interesting to see what they do. Sure would be a good time to have a capable front office!

[jnrjr79]

I normally don't ever entertain trading for the sake of trading, but I think most of us agree that we should be trying to be good in 2026-27 and beyond as opposed to next year. So while I'm not looking some crazy distance into the future, the win-loss outlook next year is low priority to me, and if anything shouldn't be inflated unless it's due to a guy that can be here long term. I don't think there is room for both of them long term.

As far as roster balance, I think you're forgetting a few things:

Patrick will play some at the 3 until further notice. He's on a significant 5 year deal. Extremely unlikely (and unwise IMO) to completely bench him or trade him for now.

Huerter is here next year and will probably be in the rotation at the 2 or 3 spot.

We very well might draft a perimeter guy with our FRP who we would want to be in the rotation probably. If not, what's the point?

Minor concerns, but we're paying Carter and Terry decent money next year (because we're stupid) and they can both defend (Terry quite well) and are very acceptable as third string players.

Just to note, this is all inspired by the idea that Jones maybe should and will be back on a multi year deal to run the 2nd team offense from the 1 position. With Coby starting at the 1. I do think if one guy is traded between Ball and Ayo, the other guy may absolutely end up starting at the 2 spot, unless we get really surprising signs from Patrick, Huerter or our FRP instead to justify one of them starting. Or a free agent signing.

I don’t think being dead set on Patrick playing a lot of minutes at the 3, or 3 and 4, is conducive to winning in 26/27. He maybe be overpaid, but I wouldn’t trade anyone just to ensure that he has minutes open to him. I have even less care if Huerter plays.

I just don’t see anyone on the Bulls as some sort of sure fire “core” player. Maybe Matas, maybe Giddey (though he has weaknesses), Coby can fit with those guys in a nice role, and so can any of the others. So I would be open for business, but I wouldn’t be looking to move anyone just to open up space (absent a determination that we aren’t going to resign the guy, so trade to not have them walk for nothing).

The likelihood of them walking for nothing after elevating us to a few extra undesirable wins next year is my thought.

To put the roster logjam in more perspective, you can make a strong argument that the Bulls next year project to have the most insanely overpaid 3rd string (or at least 3rd best guy at each of the five positions) imaginable next year:

5: Smith, Collins, then Vuc at 22 mil or whatever
4: Matas, Phillips, then Patrick at 18 mil
3. Giddey, FRP, then Huerter at 18 mil
2: Ayo, Ball, then Terry at 5.4 mil
1: Coby, Jones, then Carter at 6.8 mil

As far as I'm concerned that's basically 70 million in 3rd string players next year that should cost no more than 20 million. Absolute lunacy. Terrible for asset management projections.

Regardless of whether they should, do you have any faith the Bulls would actually relegate Vooch to 3rd string center?

[eierluke]

It is not just that we have to part ways with one of these guys, we further have to unload money.
13 guys on our roster (assumiming Carter picks up his optionyear) with 134 mio
1st priority: resigning Giddey: that will take 25 to 30 in year 1
1st rd draft pick: starting salary almost 5 mio
luxury cap is actually 171 mio (might increase slightly) --> No room to resign Tre Jones
Resigning Jones might cost 10 - 12 mio. Very expensive, just makes sense in case we want him as our starter (I think he has it in him).
In case we want to resign we have to unload salary.
How?
Ball would just make sense for a contender, but they maneuver in principle above the cap.
The only idea would be to send Ayo with a 2nd rd pick to a club that could absorb his salary

[DASMACKDOWN]

Neither because they both will be back.

The thing is I think we are jumping the gun here. The glut of guards will disappear really fast. Gone as soon as next offseason.

Lets say you do resign Coby, Giddey, Ayo, that is basically all we have if no other moves are made.

By then, we would have decisions on Terry, Huerter and Zo if non are traded prior. Carter will be gone.

So we could actually go from crazy guard dept, to avg/slim.

[WesPeace]

Neither I would say.. my preference is still to trade White and Carter (if he even picks up his P.O.)..
re-sign Giddey and Jones - so we have, Giddey, Jones, Huerter, Ball, Ayo and maybe draft pick, I dont count Terry as guard,he fits more SF. If we draft guard, I think that there is likely Ball is traded as well, if we draft a wing, Terry gets mostly DNP, if we draft big,he will be rotated with others for some minutes, but sooner than later, Collins or Smith gets traded, if rookie shows promise.

PG : Giddey, Jones, Ball
SG : Huerter, Ayo, Ball
SF : PWill, Terry, Huerter
PF : Matas, Phillips
C : Collins, Smith

plus draft pick and assets we get back in Vooch and White trades

extra : Young, Liddell as 14th and 15th players
gone via trades : Vucevic, White, Carter ? if needed

[League Circles]

I don’t think being dead set on Patrick playing a lot of minutes at the 3, or 3 and 4, is conducive to winning in 26/27. He maybe be overpaid, but I wouldn’t trade anyone just to ensure that he has minutes open to him. I have even less care if Huerter plays.

I just don’t see anyone on the Bulls as some sort of sure fire “core” player. Maybe Matas, maybe Giddey (though he has weaknesses), Coby can fit with those guys in a nice role, and so can any of the others. So I would be open for business, but I wouldn’t be looking to move anyone just to open up space (absent a determination that we aren’t going to resign the guy, so trade to not have them walk for nothing).

The likelihood of them walking for nothing after elevating us to a few extra undesirable wins next year is my thought.

To put the roster logjam in more perspective, you can make a strong argument that the Bulls next year project to have the most insanely overpaid 3rd string (or at least 3rd best guy at each of the five positions) imaginable next year:

5: Smith, Collins, then Vuc at 22 mil or whatever
4: Matas, Phillips, then Patrick at 18 mil
3. Giddey, FRP, then Huerter at 18 mil
2: Ayo, Ball, then Terry at 5.4 mil
1: Coby, Jones, then Carter at 6.8 mil

As far as I'm concerned that's basically 70 million in 3rd string players next year that should cost no more than 20 million. Absolute lunacy. Terrible for asset management projections.

Regardless of whether they should, do you have any faith the Bulls would actually relegate Vooch to 3rd string center?

Unfortunately, probably not until at least the trade deadline next season, at which point they might buy him out. In my book he's for sure the 3rd best C on the roster already next year.

[sco]

I don't really view the Bulls' predicament as Ball vs. Ayo. It's Coby vs. Ayo vs. neither.

Ball is on a cheap deal and hasn't been super available. I'm hopeful he'll be healthy next year and ready for a larger role, but at the moment, he's just in sort of "give you what he can, when he can" mode. He's a luxury that you don't organize your guard rotation around.

The reason it's Coby vs. Ayo vs. neither is that Coby and Ayo are expiring in 2026 and can only be extended for 140% of their final-year salary of their current deal or 140% of the NBA's average salary, whichever is greater (which to my understanding is effectively the MLE based on what Doug has noted in other discussions about this). That's probably enough to extend Ayo. It's not going to be enough for Coby. So now you have to use your projected 2026 cap space to keep him.

This offseason is something of an inflection point. Do you want to intentionally be bad in 2026, get a high draft pick, and then have a bunch of cap space to make deals? In that case, you trade Coby. You might get something decent for him if he continues his hot streak down the stretch, though his value may be limited given the team trading for him will face the same salary limitations when re-signing him. You don't really care about having "too many guards" or whatever because roster fit is secondary to player development and accumulating losses to max your draft pick. Alternatively, while this might not be prudent, the Bulls will be well-situated to deal some combination of Coby, Ayo, the guys received in the Zach trade, draft capital, expiring salary, etc. to go big game hunting. That sure seems like something AK would historically be interested in doing. For the first time in a while, they do have a decent number of assets to do something like this.

The plan I'm worried about is essentially "run it back," because it could lock you in to a mediocre roster for a while. Let's say you use the draft pick and bring the roster back, more or less. You're going to be good enough to screw up next year's pick (maybe even if you do end up unloading guys at the trade deadline), but not good enough to meaningfully make any playoff noise. Coby has a good year, so you use a huge chunk of 2026 cap space to re-sign him. You also extend Ayo. Now what?

The Bulls have a ton of different paths they could take right now and it'll be pretty interesting to see what they do. Sure would be a good time to have a capable front office!

I think the "run it back" strategy is AK's strategy. He is clearly focused on hoping for enough marginal improvement with middling talent to keep his job. Here's the thing IMO, this team has shown me that there is a fair bit of upside room if it can just remove the minutes played by bad players. We might not like the notion because it lacks the upside and promise that would come with tanking for a star, but if we had this exact roster and you told me we went to this rotation:

Ball, Jones
White, Ayo
Giddey, Huerter
Matas, Smith, Phillips
Collins, Smith

I think that roster could be a .500 or better team. We are absolutely decimated by the horrid, play of Vuc, Pat, and Terry.

[Rose2Boozer]

I'm keeping Ayo. Personally, I would keep them both and trade White. That being said, out of the two it's Ayo for me, and I would see if a team would like to eat Ball's contract into their non-tax payer mid-level exception.