Donovan in comparison

[Moon]

For Bulls Fans Consideration. Before slamming Billy Donovan you might wish to consider prior coaches winning percentage and the personnel who they had available to shape that record. Yes Having Michael Jordan on your team will change your percentage of winning.

1999-01 Tim Floyd. 49-190. .205
Tony Kukoc,Ron Harper,Brent Barry,Bill Wennington, Rusty LaRue,Elton Brand, BJ Armstrong, Randy brown, Fred Hoiberg, Metta World Peace, Hersey Hawkins, Will Perdue, Marcus Fizer, Ron Mercer, Tyson Chandler,Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Brad Miller, Eddie Robinson, Jalen Rose, Charles Oakley, Kevin Ollie

2019-2020 Jim Boylen. 39-84. .317
Ryan Archidiacono, Wendell Carter Jr, Kris Dunn, Christiano Felicio, Justin Holiday, chandler Hutchison, Zach LaVine, Robin Lopez, Lauri Markkanen, Jabari Parker, Otto Porter Jr,. Bobby Portis, Daniel Gafford,Coby White, Denzel Valentine, Thadeus Young

1983. Paul Westhead. 28-54. .341
Dave Corzine, Quinten Dooley (maybe Dailey), Dave Greenwood, Regie Theus, Orlando Woolridge

2002-2004 Bill Cartwright. 51-100. .388
Rick Brunson, Tyson Chandler, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry,Marcus Fizer, Fred Hoiberg, Donyell Marshall, Eddie Robinson, Jalen Rose, Jay Williams

2021-2025 Billy Donovan. 195-205. .488
Ryan Arcidiacono, Wendell Carter Jr, Christiano Felicio, Daniel Gafford, Chandler Hutchison,
Luke Kornet, Zach LaVine, Laurie Harkkanen, Otto Porter Jr, Denzel Valentine, Nikola Vucevic, Coby White, Patrick Williams, Thadeus Young,Lonzo Ball, Alex Caruso, DeMar DeRozan, Ayo Dosunmu, Jevon Carter, Torrey Craig, Andre Drummond, Javonte Green, Julian Phillips, Dalen Terry, Matas Buzelis,Josh Giddey, Kevin Huerter, Tre Jones

1987-1989 Doug Collins. 137-109. .557
Dave Corzine, Michael Jordan, Pete Myers, Charles Oakley, John Paxson, Brad Sellers,Artis Gilmore, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen,Craig Hodges,

2011-2015 Tom Thibodeau 255-139. .647
Omer Asik, Carlos Boozer, Ronnie Brewer, Luol deng, Taj Gibson, Kyle Korver, Joakim Noah, Derrick Rose, Brian Scalabrine Kurt Thomas, Cj Watson, Jimmy Butler, Richard Hamilton,Kirk Hinrich, Nazr Mohammed, Nate Robinson, Marquis Teague,Mike Dunleavy, Tony Snell,Pau Gasol, Doug MCDrmott, Nikola Mirotic, ETwaun Moore, Christiano Felicio, Justin Holiday

1990-1998. Phil Jackson. 545-193. .738
Michael Jordan, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Stacey King, John Paxson, Will Perdue, Scottie Pippen, Cliff Levingston,Scott Williams,Ed Nealy, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington,Tony Kukoc, Randy Brown, Ron Harper, John Salley, Dennis Rodman< Bison DSwlw, Robert Parish,

[kodo]

I don't have huge problems with Billy this season, the Bulls are launching 3s, playing at a fast pace, top 5 in assists and while he started with us spamming bad 3s (above the break, off the dribble, quick shot before even attempting a play) it normalized as the season went on, we went from #2 in 3PA with Boston (without having their shooters) down to #8.

Most of the Billy criticism is from most of his tenure here where were the league's slowest paced team, worst team at generating 3s, taking the most number of bad shots in the league (long 2s & contested 2s).

Win% isn't that relevant to me, that's mostly going to come from the talent on the team which was mid during most of his tenure and that's where we usually end up. And our biggest obstacle to having a better win % is defense, and AK never gave Billy the bigs to anchor a decent defense. Even Thibs in Minnesota had a horrible defense (27th in the league) with the center he had even though he had Butler, Wiggins, and Taj.

[Moon]

Kodo I was so frustrated by the Jim Boylen years that any change showed improvement. BD and coaches listed played and coached to the best of their ability but, BD is an NBA hall of Fame coach and soooooooo much better than Tim Floyd.

[HomoSapien]

Billy did a solid job this year, but I don't think he deserves praise because we have had worse coaches. His team's never seem to overachieve but they don't really seem to severely underperform either. Thibs and even Skiles seemed to elevate the team.

[dougthonus]

I think Donovan is a good coach.

That said, I wouldn't even bring up winning percentage as a metric with coaches. If you could do a full regression analysis on winning percentage, I would doubt that head coach would have 5% expected impact on it across the league.

Not everyone has to view coaches like I do, but I would say my biggest factors in evaluating a coach:
1: Do the players play hard for them / like them / buy into what they are trying to do
2: Do the players seem prepared / do the right things in the system the coach is implementing
3: Are the overall results better or worse than you expect given the talent
4: Do you see appropriate growth in your players

These things are things you can kind of get a feel from pretty easily without a lot of depth of what is happening behind close doors and without having a professional level of basketball knowledge. You can pick them up generally by watching the game and listening to the interviews.

Things I think are massively overstated in their value
1: How to the coach manages rotations - While I think there is some validity to this occasionally, most of the time, this is people assuming that only if the coach did something else the result would be better and only the losing scenarios are typically judged (never hear fans say a coach is good with rotations generally speaking, only complain about it)

2: Tactical genius - I agree this is important but the vast majority of fans watching simply do not understand tactically what is going on well enough to make a _real_ judgment and mostly are often just saying things with no real basis to have a strong feel for it. I focus a little bit on #2 above which I think is the lesser version of this that most fans can more practically get that.

If I were to weigh Donovan on the above:
1: Yes
2: Generally Yes
3: Yes
4: Yes

The outlier in the above yeses is Patrick Williams, and in that vein, I have attributed that to Pat and not to Donovan, though certainly you could argue that Pat's failings are at least partially due to inadequate coaching.

[sco]

I think Donovan is a good coach.

That said, I wouldn't even bring up winning percentage as a metric with coaches. If you could do a full regression analysis on winning percentage, I would doubt that head coach would have 5% expected impact on it across the league.

Not everyone has to view coaches like I do, but I would say my biggest factors in evaluating a coach:
1: Do the players play hard for them / like them / buy into what they are trying to do
2: Do the players seem prepared / do the right things in the system the coach is implementing
3: Are the overall results better or worse than you expect given the talent
4: Do you see appropriate growth in your players

These things are things you can kind of get a feel from pretty easily without a lot of depth of what is happening behind close doors and without having a professional level of basketball knowledge. You can pick them up generally by watching the game and listening to the interviews.

Things I think are massively overstated in their value
1: How to the coach manages rotations - While I think there is some validity to this occasionally, most of the time, this is people assuming that only if the coach did something else the result would be better and only the losing scenarios are typically judged (never hear fans say a coach is good with rotations generally speaking, only complain about it)

2: Tactical genius - I agree this is important but the vast majority of fans watching simply do not understand tactically what is going on well enough to make a _real_ judgment and mostly are often just saying things with no real basis to have a strong feel for it. I focus a little bit on #2 above which I think is the lesser version of this that most fans can more practically get that.

If I were to weigh Donovan on the above:
1: Yes
2: Generally Yes
3: Yes
4: Yes

The outlier in the above yeses is Patrick Williams, and in that vein, I have attributed that to Pat and not to Donovan, though certainly you could argue that Pat's failings are at least partially due to inadequate coaching.

I'm not even sure I blame Pat all that much. IMO, the FO went for a risky pick that they hoped would be the next Kawhi and tried to get him to be that guy, but Pat, while having tantilizing measurables, never had the skills to be an on-ball playmaker. Billy bears blame for not realizing it sooner (i.e. before they paid him).

[ChettheJet]

I don't think you can point at Billy and say he's holding this team back or he's why they lose more than they win. I don't think you'd find any players here or gone that will say he should have gotten more out of the players that he had.

I think you'd have to say that Thibs in all three of his stops had better rosters to work with. Spoelstra has won in MIA with several different levels of roster. A LOT of other teams have gone out and several star players and on paper before the season started looked like they'd be in the Finals then came up well short no matter the coach.

[dougthonus]

I'm not even sure I blame Pat all that much. IMO, the FO went for a risky pick that they hoped would be the next Kawhi and tried to get him to be that guy, but Pat, while having tantilizing measurables, never had the skills to be an on-ball playmaker. Billy bears blame for not realizing it sooner (i.e. before they paid him).

I blame Pat for not maintaining his conditioning and not improving his basketball IQ (or for not hustling depending if you think it's a hustle issue or a slow processor issue why he is always late, but I am in the 2nd of those camps but think with study he could have and should have improved). I don't blame him for not being Kawhi, he never had even the hint of an offensive game, but he should be a good defender and a solid spot up shooter, and he has regressed to where I don't have confidence in either of those abilities.

That could be on the coaching staff for pushing him in all the wrong directions (maybe telling him to add weight, work on shot creation, not doing the right film study, etc). It could also be on Pat for just not working hard enough, but his teammates generally seemed to speak about him as if he was a worker.

Maybe even the bar I set was just too much.

[ChettheJet]

One player, Patrick, didn't sink Billy or this team. He had several different injuries (not at the Kris Dunn level of constantly having to rehab and get his game back) but more like he could do basketball rehab due to what he injured. Where I place a good part of the blame is him and others working out with Demar in California. To me all the younger guys seem to have learned was where DeRozan liked getting the ball in the mid range, how to get him the ball there and how to clear space for him to operate. For all the reputation as a mentor the young guys didn't grow all that much

[DropStep]

Would it surprise anyone to learn that our own Coach William Jehosaphat Donovan has the third longest coaching tenure in the league, after only Spoelstra and Kerr?

I'm sure that's been mentioned multiple times here, but wow. The guy was hired six months after Rudy Gobert gave the world Covid. NBA coaching, ladies and gentlemen.

[kyrv]

Would it surprise anyone to learn that our own Coach William Jehosaphat Donovan has the third longest coaching tenure in the league, after only Spoelstra and Kerr?

I'm sure that's been mentioned multiple times here, but wow. The guy was hired six months after Rudy Gobert gave the world Covid. NBA coaching, ladies and gentlemen.

That's crazy. And yes it would surprise me. ;o

[prolific passer]

For Bulls Fans Consideration. Before slamming Billy Donovan you might wish to consider prior coaches winning percentage and the personnel who they had available to shape that record. Yes Having Michael Jordan on your team will change your percentage of winning.

1999-01 Tim Floyd. 49-190. .205
Tony Kukoc,Ron Harper,Brent Barry,Bill Wennington, Rusty LaRue,Elton Brand, BJ Armstrong, Randy brown, Fred Hoiberg, Metta World Peace, Hersey Hawkins, Will Perdue, Marcus Fizer, Ron Mercer, Tyson Chandler,Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Brad Miller, Eddie Robinson, Jalen Rose, Charles Oakley, Kevin Ollie

2019-2020 Jim Boylen. 39-84. .317
Ryan Archidiacono, Wendell Carter Jr, Kris Dunn, Christiano Felicio, Justin Holiday, chandler Hutchison, Zach LaVine, Robin Lopez, Lauri Markkanen, Jabari Parker, Otto Porter Jr,. Bobby Portis, Daniel Gafford,Coby White, Denzel Valentine, Thadeus Young

1983. Paul Westhead. 28-54. .341
Dave Corzine, Quinten Dooley (maybe Dailey), Dave Greenwood, Regie Theus, Orlando Woolridge

2002-2004 Bill Cartwright. 51-100. .388
Rick Brunson, Tyson Chandler, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry,Marcus Fizer, Fred Hoiberg, Donyell Marshall, Eddie Robinson, Jalen Rose, Jay Williams

2021-2025 Billy Donovan. 195-205. .488
Ryan Arcidiacono, Wendell Carter Jr, Christiano Felicio, Daniel Gafford, Chandler Hutchison,
Luke Kornet, Zach LaVine, Laurie Harkkanen, Otto Porter Jr, Denzel Valentine, Nikola Vucevic, Coby White, Patrick Williams, Thadeus Young,Lonzo Ball, Alex Caruso, DeMar DeRozan, Ayo Dosunmu, Jevon Carter, Torrey Craig, Andre Drummond, Javonte Green, Julian Phillips, Dalen Terry, Matas Buzelis,Josh Giddey, Kevin Huerter, Tre Jones

1987-1989 Doug Collins. 137-109. .557
Dave Corzine, Michael Jordan, Pete Myers, Charles Oakley, John Paxson, Brad Sellers,Artis Gilmore, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen,Craig Hodges,

2011-2015 Tom Thibodeau 255-139. .647
Omer Asik, Carlos Boozer, Ronnie Brewer, Luol deng, Taj Gibson, Kyle Korver, Joakim Noah, Derrick Rose, Brian Scalabrine Kurt Thomas, Cj Watson, Jimmy Butler, Richard Hamilton,Kirk Hinrich, Nazr Mohammed, Nate Robinson, Marquis Teague,Mike Dunleavy, Tony Snell,Pau Gasol, Doug MCDrmott, Nikola Mirotic, ETwaun Moore, Christiano Felicio, Justin Holiday

1990-1998. Phil Jackson. 545-193. .738
Michael Jordan, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Stacey King, John Paxson, Will Perdue, Scottie Pippen, Cliff Levingston,Scott Williams,Ed Nealy, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington,Tony Kukoc, Randy Brown, Ron Harper, John Salley, Dennis Rodman< Bison DSwlw, Robert Parish,

No Skiles?

[meekrab]

It's really incredible they let Jimbo coach 100 games.

[dougthonus]

Would it surprise anyone to learn that our own Coach William Jehosaphat Donovan has the third longest coaching tenure in the league, after only Spoelstra and Kerr?

I'm sure that's been mentioned multiple times here, but wow. The guy was hired six months after Rudy Gobert gave the world Covid. NBA coaching, ladies and gentlemen.

Hadn't realized that, that is nuts.

[The Box Office]

Results is the only thing that matters. He's well under .500. Donovan gotta go. It's time.

[Moon]

Yep no Skiles, Johnny Red Kerr, etc. Points re Donovan’s deficits are well founded however, we Bulls fandom have had worse. To date I have not been a fan of the roster supplied to him via AK. I hold AK responsible for picking Williams over Haliburton.

[Dez]

Results is the only thing that matters. He's well under .500. Donovan gotta go. It's time.

10 games in over 300 isn't well under .500.

[DropStep]

Results is the only thing that matters. He's well under .500. Donovan gotta go. It's time.

10 games in over 300 isn't well under .500.

It's interesting because I think most of us feel like this was a... kind of undistinguished period in the Bulls' history. But it wasn't awful. Really it was average, roughly half of teams were worse than us, which what you'd expect from a random sample. I think one reason we don't feel good about it is because there wasn't a bunch of hope for us to contend for a lot of it, despite being in a sort of "win now" mode, or what passes for one - a mode which was generated by the front office and not by him. Our only moments of real positivity were quickly crushed by the absence of Lonzo Ball, Zach (or full-speed Zach), a bad Vuc trade, and I also think to an underrated extent, Grayson Allen's hatchet job on Caruso. It could be argued that ownership, AKME, and injuries should be blamed more for a largely uninspiring "compete" phase (with a couple of short exceptions) than the coaching, because other than MAYBE the first half of the Lonzo season, we did not have the players on the floor to actually contend at any point, imo.

If you zoom out, maybe Billy did what you'd expect with the situations he was given, give or take. He wasn't great enough to make chicken salad out of it, but he wasn't what undermined it. It could also be argued that despite his tenure getting long (relatively!), this was one of his better seasons - completely overhauling an offense to fit new personnel, getting a relatively good season out of Vuc, and successfully developing Giddey and Matas in their first years with the org go on his records as accomplishments. It feels weird given the vibe of recent years, but I do think it is possible to defend him. As Doug has argued, there are other issues that needed remedied more, and I think some other random good coach Bickerholzervogel would have had a hard time doing much better with the same circumstances. He's mostly an avatar for our frustration, as the guy that was here during a kind of painful time.

But NBA coaches rarely survive painful times these days.

[The Box Office]

Results is the only thing that matters. He's well under .500. Donovan gotta go. It's time.

10 games in over 300 isn't well under .500.

That's cool. Still gotta go though. Tom Thibs just got fired from NY Knicks and he reached the Eastern Conference Finals.

[jnrjr79]

That winning percentage list tells me a lot more about how good the rosters were in those eras, as opposed to how good the coaches were.