Thoughts on Coby?

[pipfan]

I like him and think he's a good guy to have on the team. But, I really don't want White/Giddey long term-I worry about the defense. Ideally, Coby's a 30 minute 6th man, but he won't accept that role. I wanted to deal him last summer, when his bargain deal had two years, and then at the draft again.

Now, it seems like the market is shifting.
Simons moved once, trying to be moved again
Poole moved for an expiring vet
Sexton dumped
Cam Thomas-no offers
JGreen seen as a negative contract
Powell dumped

Is it possible that Coby takes the max extension offer later this summer from the Bulls? Of course, he thinks he'll be worth more next summer but his type of player (quality scorer, poor creator/defender) is clearly not in high demand.

So, what would you do with him?
Trade him?
Try to extend, then wait and see
Play him and be prepared to pay up next year

Even though the East is weak, we're a long way from the Conference Finals it seems. I like the Matas/Noa core, and I think Giddey works too. But we need better D, and a backcourt of Josh/Coby would get abused nightly.

[GoBlue72391]

I like him, but I think we should trade him. Assuming the return is decent.

I still think he's ideally an elite 6th man and a #3 scorer. His scoring and shooting are very good but not elite and he doesn't do enough of the other things to justify being a building block.

I think you gotta pick between Giddey and Coby. They're a poor fit and the duo isn't good enough to be paying $60M+ a year combined for.

Between the two I'd pick Giddey, but I'm not thrilled about that either.

[nomorezorro]

i don't really have a sense of urgency to make a decision on coby now. i think he's probably not a long-term fit here (or at least is best suited for a bench role), but i feel like his end-of-season run is way underdiscussed compared to giddey's, and i think the 5-10% chance he could sustain that level of play is more valuable to us than anything we could realistically bring back in return for him via trade.

odds are he comes back to earth and just plays in line with his previous fine-but-unspectacular production, but if that's the case, he's still a pretty decent trade piece you can move around the deadline. and honestly, based on the direction the market has been heading in for uni-skilled scoring guards, i am not worried at all about the notion we'd have to pay median-outcome coby white an exorbitant contract next season, so if you want to bring him back as more of a role player, we should probably be able to do that too. (i think the odds are higher that his next contract is at the MLE than it is at $30 million!)

[2weekswithpay]

The only way Coby accepts an extension before the season starts is if he thinks he won't get a better deal next summer. I said it before, but I'd trade him.

Coby can fit into the MLE, so I'd assume he'd have a bit more trade value than the other guards mentioned.

[ImSlower]

I've never been as high on Coby as the general board consensus. I don't loathe him the way I do Williams, but I just don't have faith in a White/Giddey backcourt being capable of winning playoff basketball. Everyone here seems to agree that Coby's probably more of a sparkplug 6th man. I know he made some bigtime fans last season and he's really put in the work, to his credit. If we keep him through Matas (and Essengue's) first couple years, I think this team just continues to squat at 35-40 wins each year. I know some of you guys are keen on that 4-man lineup. I just don't see it ever leading to a winner.

I'd be happy if we moved White for positive assets, but I'd be very surprised. I expect AK retains him.

[bullskokie]

I wish we traded him instead of Zach because Giddey, Lavine & Buzelis is IMHO a core that can make noise.

[MikeDC]

The time to trade Coby was this past season when he provided a two years of playoff runs plus over a season of a good player at low cost for the receiving team. That was valuable. Now, you only get one playoff run but still have a difficult free agency question. So AK has already missed the boat if he wanted to trade him. Just like he has with everyone else.

Beyond that, we shouldn't be trading anyone for how they fit around Giddey because Giddey isn't a player to build around. Coby isn't a player to build around either, but because he's offensively flexible, can contribute with or without having the ball in his hands and creates gravity as a shooter, he has good potential to be a meaningful player on a playoff team. Lots of talented teams could make use of him.

For that matter, he's a good fit with the Bulls. If you want Giddey to get assists, and you want the Bulls to shoot threes, you have to have good three point shooters for Giddey to pass to. If you trade Coby (and last year's version of Vuc, for that matter), how do you think that's going to work? It's not unless you have a couple of good and high-volume 3 point shooters.

Defensively, the best way to hide Giddey is defending the (offensively) weaker forward. Conceptually, having Okoro at one guard spot and Matas at the other forward spot is already getting you about as far as you can go, and getting a better defensive center will get you the rest of the way. On the other hand, replacing Coby with a defender who can't shoot is going to collapse the spacing and options that gave us some level of offensive success.

[Chi town]

The time to trade Coby was this past season when he provided a two years of playoff runs plus over a season of a good player at low cost for the receiving team. That was valuable. Now, you only get one playoff run but still have a difficult free agency question. So AK has already missed the boat if he wanted to trade him. Just like he has with everyone else.

Beyond that, we shouldn't be trading anyone for how they fit around Giddey because Giddey isn't a player to build around. Coby isn't a player to build around either, but because he's offensively flexible, can contribute with or without having the ball in his hands and creates gravity as a shooter, he has good potential to be a meaningful player on a playoff team. Lots of talented teams could make use of him.

For that matter, he's a good fit with the Bulls. If you want Giddey to get assists, and you want the Bulls to shoot threes, you have to have good three point shooters for Giddey to pass to. If you trade Coby (and last year's version of Vuc, for that matter), how do you think that's going to work? It's not unless you have a couple of good and high-volume 3 point shooters.

Defensively, the best way to hide Giddey is defending the (offensively) weaker forward. Conceptually, having Okoro at one guard spot and Matas at the other forward spot is already getting you about as far as you can go, and getting a better defensive center will get you the rest of the way. On the other hand, replacing Coby with a defender who can't shoot is going to collapse the spacing and options that gave us some level of offensive success.

Thank you!

Well said. Everyone seems to think Coby is so replaceable and will be crazy overpaid. I think the market is over correcting. Coby has value and won’t get enough shots or usage to get that crazy payday. He’s still young and improving. I think Okoro Tre Noa Buz will help him a ton on D. A true rim protector wouldn’t have anyone talking about his D.

[ShouldaPaidBG]

The play in game turned me from a true believer to wanting him waived

[Ben Wilson25]

I see a lot of people say they don’t think a Coby/Giddey pairing will work so we should trade Coby. I don’t think it’s either/or but if I had to choose between Coby and Giddey I’d take Coby. Both are at best 3rd options on a contender but Coby’s skills are more complementary to real #1 or #2 options because he’s much better at being off-ball while still being able to play the role of tertiary ball handler. I know this won’t be a popular opinion.

[kodo]

When we drafted Coby I thought his upside could be Jamal Murray, and he's pretty close. Jamal averages a few more assists but he's passing to Joker and Denver is built to hit cutters & open 3 shooters. Murray on the Bulls might be averaging identically to White. I think Jamal is more of a PG but they're not wildly different.

If Jamal Murray is the best player on your team you're probably not going anywhere interesting, but at the same time he's not someone you just waive or trade for a 28th pick. I think both Jamal & Coby are fortunately in situations where they have another player doing the heavy lifting of running the team offense.

But even for those who aren't fans, I don't see how Coby is replaceable.
We don't position ourselves to get good draft picks to replace him with someone like Dylan Harper.
We don't have any surplus of picks to trade, even 2nd rounders. We don't have a 2nd rounder til 2028.
Our two biggest name players that teams might be interested in, we have little control over. Giddey is a RFA and Coby is complete UFA after this season.

[GoBlue72391]

I see a lot of people say they don’t think a Coby/Giddey pairing will work so we should trade Coby. I don’t think it’s either/or but if I had to choose between Coby and Giddey I’d take Coby. Both are at best 3rd options on a contender but Coby’s skills are more complementary to real #1 or #2 options because he’s much better at being off-ball while still being able to play the role of tertiary ball handler. I know this won’t be a popular opinion.

Coby has a higher floor. He's an established 18-20 PPG guy, but how much better can he get? He doesn't do much other than score.

Giddey has a higher ceiling because he impacts the game in so many different ways, but he's far from a proven commodity.

I lean Giddey, but I don't blame anyone for picking Coby. He's the safer pick if we have to decide between one or the other. I definitely understand your opinion, and it is true, I would just take the swing on the higher upside guy since we're not going to be contending or anything.

[DuckIII]

Are we now talking about if we had to choose between Giddey and Coby? That’s a no brainer as Giddey for me. It’s not something I would have to think much about.

As for Coby on the Bulls, I openly hated the pick because I considered safe with low upside at a time we should have swung bigger. I had him pegged as a best case scenario to be a 6th man combo guard who can’t defend.

He proved me wrong and grew on me as a player eventually. And I think he’s a blast to have on the team and seems like a hilarious and good dude. He’s a legit starting 2 guard and I do think you can design a team in which he and Giddey can succeed. I think their “fit” concerns as purely a matter of X’s and O’s are overstated. You just have to be aware of the dynamic when you pick the rest of the players. But it can work. On the court.

To me the much bigger issues are: (a) financial; and (b) net asset valuation.

We’ll see what Giddey gets paid. But I’m not sure you can commit that much money to them both and still fill out the roster the way you need to (in my opinion - the way I want to build). It’s one thing to say you can build a team that works stylistically. Which I have said. It’s another to say you can allocate the money needed to get all the types of players to make that style work at a high level. That looks like a problem. I think Coby will make too much.

Then there is net asset valuation. Let’s use Ayo as an example as I consider him very likely to be traded. Does it enhance the Bulls assets and team building to have Coby at what he will cost, and whatever assets the Bulls can get for Ayo?

Or does it make more sense to have Ayo at whatever he will cost (presumably much less than Coby), who “fits” better with Giddey as he is comfortable off ball and a strong defender, plus whatever assets you can get for Coby? Which even today are presumably much better than you would get for Ayo.

I still lean towards trading Coby. But it would have to be a very good offer for either future looking assets or an athletic, mobile, defensive center. I.e., the trade would need to address clear areas that must be addressed: the war chest, or the interior.

On the other hand, Coby played so remarkably well the last 3 months that I’m not going to flame AK if he wants to let Coby prove himself up to the deadline and then decide.

It’s not an easy situation to assess.

[Chi town]

Are we now talking about if we had to choose between Giddey and Coby? That’s a no brainer as Giddey for me. It’s not something I would have to think much about.

As for Coby on the Bulls, I openly hated the pick because I considered safe with low upside at a time we should have swung bigger. I had him pegged as a best case scenario to be a 6th man combo guard who can’t defend.

He proved me wrong and grew on me as a player eventually. And I think he’s a blast to have on the team and seems like a hilarious and good dude. He’s a legit starting 2 guard and I do think you can design a team in which he and Giddey can succeed. I think their “fit” concerns as purely a matter of X’s and O’s are overstated. You just have to be aware of the dynamic when you pick the rest of the players. But it can work. On the court.

To me the much bigger issues are: (a) financial; and (b) net asset valuation.

We’ll see what Giddey gets paid. But I’m not sure you can commit that much money to them both and still fill out the roster the way you need to (in my opinion - the way I want to build). It’s one thing to say you can build a team that works stylistically. Which I have said. It’s another to say you can allocate the money needed to get all the types of players to make that style work at a high level. That looks like a problem. I think Coby will make too much.

Then there is net asset valuation. Let’s use Ayo as an example as I consider him very likely to be traded. Does it enhance the Bulls assets and team building to have Coby at what he will cost, and whatever assets the Bulls can get for Ayo?

Or does it make more sense to have Ayo at whatever he will cost (presumably much less than Coby), who “fits” better with Giddey as he is comfortable off ball and a strong defender, plus whatever assets you can get for Coby? Which even today are presumably much better than you would get for Ayo.

I still lean towards trading Coby. But it would have to be a very good offer for either future looking assets or an athletic, mobile, defensive center. I.e., the trade would need to address clear areas that must be addressed: the war chest, or the interior.

On the other hand, Coby played so remarkably well the last 3 months that I’m not going to flame AK if he wants to let Coby prove himself up to the deadline and then decide.

It’s not an easy situation to assess.

What would you need in order to trade Coby?

How much of a drop off would you anticipate if Ayo or Huerter replaced his mins?

[sco]

Are we now talking about if we had to choose between Giddey and Coby? That’s a no brainer as Giddey for me. It’s not something I would have to think much about.

As for Coby on the Bulls, I openly hated the pick because I considered safe with low upside at a time we should have swung bigger. I had him pegged as a best case scenario to be a 6th man combo guard who can’t defend.

He proved me wrong and grew on me as a player eventually. And I think he’s a blast to have on the team and seems like a hilarious and good dude. He’s a legit starting 2 guard and I do think you can design a team in which he and Giddey can succeed. I think their “fit” concerns as purely a matter of X’s and O’s are overstated. You just have to be aware of the dynamic when you pick the rest of the players. But it can work. On the court.

To me the much bigger issues are: (a) financial; and (b) net asset valuation.

We’ll see what Giddey gets paid. But I’m not sure you can commit that much money to them both and still fill out the roster the way you need to (in my opinion - the way I want to build). It’s one thing to say you can build a team that works stylistically. Which I have said. It’s another to say you can allocate the money needed to get all the types of players to make that style work at a high level. That looks like a problem. I think Coby will make too much.

Then there is net asset valuation. Let’s use Ayo as an example as I consider him very likely to be traded. Does it enhance the Bulls assets and team building to have Coby at what he will cost, and whatever assets the Bulls can get for Ayo?

Or does it make more sense to have Ayo at whatever he will cost (presumably much less than Coby), who “fits” better with Giddey as he is comfortable off ball and a strong defender, plus whatever assets you can get for Coby? Which even today are presumably much better than you would get for Ayo.

I still lean towards trading Coby. But it would have to be a very good offer for either future looking assets or an athletic, mobile, defensive center. I.e., the trade would need to address clear areas that must be addressed: the war chest, or the interior.

On the other hand, Coby played so remarkably well the last 3 months that I’m not going to flame AK if he wants to let Coby prove himself up to the deadline and then decide.

It’s not an easy situation to assess.

What would you need in order to trade Coby?

How much of a drop off would you anticipate if Ayo or Huerter replaced his mins?

I'm in the camp of either 2 middling 1sts or 1 potentially good 1st. To me, it comes down to needing a legit #1 scorer who is less of a defensive liability coupled with not signing Coby to a deal that will make him hard to unload.

[DuckIII]

I still lean towards trading Coby. But it would have to be a very good offer for either future looking assets or an athletic, mobile, defensive center. I.e., the trade would need to address clear areas that must be addressed: the war chest, or the interior.

What would you need in order to trade Coby?

How much of a drop off would you anticipate if Ayo or Huerter replaced his mins?

I kind of tried to answer the first question in the part I left in. But admittedly that answer is vague as to the part about "future looking assets." Its hard to just say something like "two firsts" because of protections, and whose firsts they are, etc. But to me it would require some combination of firsts and a defensive big, or picks or a defensive big that are/is good enough on their own that you don't need both.

If I had to try to be specific with multiple firsts (2), I'd say I'd want at least one of the firsts to have a better than 50/50 percent to be top at top 15 pick and neither pick to have the type of declining conditions that could render them seconds. Or it could just be for one pick if, for example it were in next year's draft and has a very good chance to be in the lottery.

As for drop off, two things. First, in year one the drop off would be at its most pronounced and would - in theory if the plan were to work - decline steadily after because the other more important players (Giddey, Noa, Matas) would be improving and reducing dependency on Coby. Bear in mind, the better Matas becomes as a scorer the less value we get out of Coby's deal and the more problematic his poor defense becomes. Also, while I can't really speak for Huerter, I don't think the net drop off for entire team quality would be that significant from Ayo to Coby in this specific situation on the Bulls because up tempo basketball is where Ayo thrives as a scorer and he is outrageously better than Coby as a defender (including being able to guard three positions). And he will absolutely be cheaper than Coby later, which gets back to net asset valuation.

If you can do those types of moves to trade Coby now, its the right call. The core of this team, today, is Giddey and Matas. Not Coby. He's just here. So he should be treated like everyone else - an asset to be evaluated for improving the long term prospects of the team. Unless he takes another big step forward this year into legitimate stardom, its hard for me to envision keeping and paying him a big contract to be a workable plan. Unless you know you can turn around and trade that contract without hamstringing yourself financially.

[DuckIII]

Are we now talking about if we had to choose between Giddey and Coby? That’s a no brainer as Giddey for me. It’s not something I would have to think much about.

As for Coby on the Bulls, I openly hated the pick because I considered safe with low upside at a time we should have swung bigger. I had him pegged as a best case scenario to be a 6th man combo guard who can’t defend.

He proved me wrong and grew on me as a player eventually. And I think he’s a blast to have on the team and seems like a hilarious and good dude. He’s a legit starting 2 guard and I do think you can design a team in which he and Giddey can succeed. I think their “fit” concerns as purely a matter of X’s and O’s are overstated. You just have to be aware of the dynamic when you pick the rest of the players. But it can work. On the court.

To me the much bigger issues are: (a) financial; and (b) net asset valuation.

We’ll see what Giddey gets paid. But I’m not sure you can commit that much money to them both and still fill out the roster the way you need to (in my opinion - the way I want to build). It’s one thing to say you can build a team that works stylistically. Which I have said. It’s another to say you can allocate the money needed to get all the types of players to make that style work at a high level. That looks like a problem. I think Coby will make too much.

Then there is net asset valuation. Let’s use Ayo as an example as I consider him very likely to be traded. Does it enhance the Bulls assets and team building to have Coby at what he will cost, and whatever assets the Bulls can get for Ayo?

Or does it make more sense to have Ayo at whatever he will cost (presumably much less than Coby), who “fits” better with Giddey as he is comfortable off ball and a strong defender, plus whatever assets you can get for Coby? Which even today are presumably much better than you would get for Ayo.

I still lean towards trading Coby. But it would have to be a very good offer for either future looking assets or an athletic, mobile, defensive center. I.e., the trade would need to address clear areas that must be addressed: the war chest, or the interior.

On the other hand, Coby played so remarkably well the last 3 months that I’m not going to flame AK if he wants to let Coby prove himself up to the deadline and then decide.

It’s not an easy situation to assess.

What would you need in order to trade Coby?

How much of a drop off would you anticipate if Ayo or Huerter replaced his mins?

I'm in the camp of either 2 middling 1sts or 1 potentially good 1st. To me, it comes down to needing a legit #1 scorer who is less of a defensive liability coupled with not signing Coby to a deal that will make him hard to unload.

Agree. Also if someone would kindly trade us a very athletic, shot blocking center who covers large areas of the half court, that would be a fine and dandy alternative.

[kodo]

I'm in the camp of either 2 middling 1sts or 1 potentially good 1st. To me, it comes down to needing a legit #1 scorer who is less of a defensive liability coupled with not signing Coby to a deal that will make him hard to unload.

I think Coby definitely has that kind of value while still on $11M per year but not after (which is why I assume people are hot to trade him soon). But if we must make the playoffs this upcoming season, or do everything we can towards that goal no going backwards for rebuilding, then they really shouldn't have traded Lavine.

- Giddey still replaces Coby at PG with all the improvement that brought us
- Lavine replaces Coby at SG as a pure scorer and he's actually far better at it, 64% TS both in CHI & SAC
- Coby assets used to get a vet big to help or anchor the defense

The cost would have been obviously no Noa Essengue, and he might help in 2-3 years?

[DuckIII]

I'm in the camp of either 2 middling 1sts or 1 potentially good 1st. To me, it comes down to needing a legit #1 scorer who is less of a defensive liability coupled with not signing Coby to a deal that will make him hard to unload.

I think Coby definitely has that kind of value while still on $11M per year but not after (which is why I assume people are hot to trade him soon). But if we must make the playoffs this upcoming season, or do everything we can towards that goal no going backwards for rebuilding, then they really shouldn't have traded Lavine.

- Giddey still replaces Coby at PG with all the improvement that brought us
- Lavine replaces Coby at SG as a pure scorer and he's actually far better at it, 64% TS both in CHI & SAC
- Coby assets used to get a vet big to help or anchor the defense

The cost would have been obviously no Noa Essengue, and he might help in 2-3 years?

Eh. No. Giddey isn't Giddey with Zach here. For reasons I will never understand, one of the fastest and most explosive athletes in the history of the NBA prefers to walk it up the floor and play half court basketball. Coby, on the other hand, is comfortable playing off ball and loves nothing more than pushing pace.

There's a pretty clear distinction between how Giddey played before and after Zach. Hell, the same can be said for Coby after Zach was dealt. Best three months of his career.

There was never any future for Zach and Giddey on the same team. Oil and water, and we saw it play out exactly that way.

[ChettheJet]

All the weak sisters worried about the defense with Giddey and White playing together, do you see how much switching every NBA team does? Or how often somebody besides the guards bring the ball up the floor and then there's a high screen set and players end up on somebody else? Are you concerned about hos the defenses are going to guard Coby and Josh, maybe they're worrined.