It's one or the other (Noah and Ty)

[Red Larrivee]

Noah and Varejao are actually really similar as well. It's arguable about who is better, but same role, about the same rebounding, about the same athleticism, same defensive presence, Noah might be a better shotblocker though.

[JeffJordan]

Christ Almighty.

So we don't play the two guys who could possibly take this team to the ext level.

Instead we start a frontcourt with an average age of 33 years old. Great idea.


I'm f*&^ing sick to my stomach.

Sadly, Joe Smith and Ben Wallace are quite a bit better than Noah and far better than Tyrus. Joe and Ben give us our best chance of winning now. As I have said many times-- players improve and prove themselves the most in practice, the weight room and the offseason. Just because our two young bigs don't play much, doesn't mean we are stunting their growth at all. Bottom line is that we should be trying to win so that we can make the playoffs.

[VinTheBarber]

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Sadly, Joe Smith and Ben Wallace are quite a bit better than Noah and far better than Tyrus. Joe and Ben give us our best chance of winning now. As I have said many times-- players improve and prove themselves the most in practice, the weight room and the offseason. Just because our two young bigs don't play much, doesn't mean we are stunting their growth at all. Bottom line is that we should be trying to win so that we can make the playoffs.

so your saying that noah is better than tyrus? i disagree

[JeffJordan]

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Am I wrong though? It's not hard to develop a jumpshot, it's just a matter of if you're better suited trying to do it.

Chandler was never better suited trying to shoot 18 foot jumpers. Same with Curry. But I'm sure they can shoot a jumpshot. But it's just not what will be best for their NBA game. Not a strength, never will be.

Tyrus I think is better doing what Chandler does. Tyrus just isn't a good basketball player. He's a good athlete yes, but not a good basketball player. Most of what he does is going to be based off athleticism. He has 0 skill for the game, which is why his jumper will probably be shaky for the while. He needs someone to complement his athleticism like Paul did for Chandler in New Orleans. We all know Chandler was a good athlete, but his skill was just way off. Now that he has someone like Chris Paul who's a good playmaker and creator, his athletic abilities have been complimented. We don't have that here.

As always I agree with your analysis 100%.

[JeffJordan]

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so your saying that noah is better than tyrus? i disagree

It's fine to disagree but as it stands now Noah is more NBA ready and puts in much better effort. I also love Noah's winning mentality.

[TidalWaveRider]

It's becoming increasingly clear that Boylan isn't the answer. His statements about needing to earn minutes is pure hypocrisy. TT and Noah outperform Wallace and Smith during the spot minutes they are given. The idiocy of Jeff Jordan and Bull Shak, who probably don't even watch the games, is actually pretty funny. Jeff Jordan, especially, since he's a troll who insists on talking about things way over his head and is desperately attempting to get people to take him seriously (as trolls are known to do-- "listen to me!" "love me!" "hate me!"). Boylan's idiocy, on the other hand... not so funny. When will we hire a real head coach who gets rid of the worthless yes men and seat fillers Skiles has left in his stead. When will we hire a head coach with the balls to sit a tremendously underperforming former DPOY in favor of players who are outproducing, out-hustling and out-helping the team? When will we hire a head coach who tosses this awful offensive system into the garbage bin and impliments an offense suited to our player's strengths, while maintaining our top notch defensive prowess? I'll tell you one thing: when we find a coach like that, only then will we be on the fast track to the championships. The East is as wide-open as ever, gentlemen... but a flawed team like ours will go nowhere if we keep trying the same things which made us mediocre in the first place.

[MrSparkle]

I'll tell you one thing: when we find a coach like that, only then will we be on the fast track to the championships. The East is as wide-open as ever, gentlemen... but a flawed team like ours will go nowhere if we keep trying the same things which made us mediocre in the first place.

Let me say one thing; with a better performing Ben Wallace, this team could have been a contender in the weaker East. With him deteriorating so fast, expecting this team to be "on the fast track to the championships" has become very far fetched. Most of our pieces are extremely young. A veteran DPOY all-star could've been the guy to lead the pack, but he fell through in every way. The sad thing is that Ben could've at least provided veteran presence ala Antonio Davis, but instead, he's lost his on-court energy AND he has zero locker room presence. Have some pride if you sign a $80 million contract, sigh.

"Same things that made us mediocre in the first place"... well I think that our inability to nab a superstar is a part of that. We didn't get James, Wade, Paul, Howard, Oden... Haven't had a lot of opportunities, but I had a feeling we would regret passing on Roy (imagine a Gordon/Roy back-court ). Otherwise, I still believe Paxson has done a solid (not great) job with the drafts... though the verdicts still out. We need a consolidation trade badly.

I don't think we expected to have Thomas, Noah AND Wallace... nor do I think we necessarily would've wanted to, had we seen that all three would be our best draft or FA options.

[TidalWaveRider]

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Let me say one thing; with a better performing Ben Wallace, this team could have been a contender in the weaker East. With him deteriorating so fast, expecting this team to be "on the fast track to the championships" has become very far fetched. Most of our pieces are extremely young. A veteran DPOY all-star could've been the guy to lead the pack, but he fell through in every way. The sad thing is that Ben could've at least provided veteran presence ala Antonio Davis, but instead, he's lost his on-court energy AND he has zero locker room presence. Have some pride if you sign a $80 million contract, sigh.

By "a fast track to the championships" I'm talking about the very real 4 - 5 year window that opened last year. So I'm not talking about how this is the time to take our one shot. That would be absurd. Our pieces may be young, but they are already outperforming Wallace. The East has ZERO cohesive teams save Boston. Cleveland is a one-man show, and need a hot LeBron every night to have a chance. Detroit is aging and weakening. Now is the time to develop studs who are already outworking the old vets. If we see significant improvement from Noah and Tyrus by the time the playoffs roll around, anything, absolutely anything, can happen. I truly believe that this roster, which has underperformed so badly to begin the year, still has the ingredients necessary to go deep into the playoffs. But it starts with using what works and is more productive, more regularly. Let's go with a faster, smoother offense tailor-made for Ben, Loul and Kirk. Let's go with young bigs who impact the game more positively than either Wallace or Smith. Let's go with coaching that isn't arbitrary and hypocritical.

"Same things that made us mediocre in the first place"... well I think that our inability to nab a superstar is a part of that. We didn't get James, Wade, Paul, Howard, Oden... Haven't had a lot of opportunities, but I had a feeling we would regret passing on Roy (imagine a Gordon/Roy back-court ). Otherwise, I still believe Paxson has done a solid (not great) job with the drafts... though the verdicts still out. We need a consolidation trade badly.

Paxson really blew that draft. Either Roy OR Aldridge would have fit better and helped our pathetic offense in ways that would have been immeasurable. That said, the guys we've got on our roster are tremendously talented and more than capable of winning night in and night out. Kirk wasn't selected to the Olympic team on accident. Gordon and Deng are grade A quality players. And our young bigs are already showing signs in unfairly limited minutes. We need a good coach far worse than we need a consolidation trade for a superstar. Someone who could make use of all this wasted talent.

I don't think we expected to have Thomas, Noah AND Wallace... nor do I think we necessarily would've wanted to, had we seen that all three would be our best draft or FA options.

I don't disagree, which is why dealing Wallace to a team that's looking to win it all or be one of the elite contenders-- like the Lakers for expirings (Kwame, Mihm and Vujacic for instance) or the Cavs, for guys who expire at the end of next season (Eric Snow, Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall)-- makes a lot of sense. That way, we could wind up adding that missing superstar through free agency in 2009, when LeBron and Wade hit the market.

[Red Larrivee]

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I don't disagree, which is why dealing Wallace to a team that's looking to win it all or be one of the elite contenders-- like the Lakers for expirings (Kwame, Mihm and Vujacic for instance) or the Cavs, for guys who expire at the end of next season (Eric Snow, Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall)-- makes a lot of sense. That way, we could wind up adding that missing superstar through free agency in 2009, when LeBron and Wade hit the market.

But how can you bank on Lebron or Wade coming here? Granted who wouldn't want to play here, but it's a slim chance that Lebron or Wade or Bosh will leave their respected teams.

If you're looking for a superstar it's most likely got to be through trade.

[TidalWaveRider]

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But how can you bank on Lebron or Wade coming here? Granted who wouldn't want to play here, but it's a slim chance that Lebron or Wade or Bosh will leave their respected teams.

If you're looking for a superstar it's most likely got to be through trade.

It's a slim chance that any team wins a championship, but yet we toil for that because the possibility is open. LeBron / Wade / Bosh could solve a lot of our problems in a hurry and we're a Top 3 market, which gives us a huge advantage. Anyway, I'm not banking on squat. I just think we could do a lot better than spend $15 million per year on an overrated quitter like Wallace. Even if we miss on LeBron/ Wade/ Bosh, there will be many free agents more productive and helpful than a redundant, aging, unproductive "star." I'm all for trading but the deranged firesales people have thrown around these last 2 weeks are far from what I envision as acceptable. I assume Wallace has nil trade value, which is why I want him expunged.

[shrink]

Statisticians have studied this. Per minute stats generally stay the same if not improve as the minutes played go up. It can be argued if its a leading or trailing stat, but there is no evidence that people play worse the more they play.

I am no fan of "per-minute" stats, but I certainly don't think they appropriate for guys down in the paint. If we apply the "per-minute" production, personal fouls would also rise, and both Noah and Tyrus Thomas would be averaging 5 PF's a game. Clearly even if they had the energy to play the same way, they couldn't play the same way when they are in foul trouble.

For example, look at Tyrus last year. After Nocioni got injured and he started getting more minutes, he magically got a lot better per minute. .

A simpler answer is that rookies get better.

That said, any time you fancy trading either Noah or Thomas, be sure to let MIN know!

[JeremyB0001]

I've been a huge Pax fan and was singing his praises more than ever a week ago. Now, I'm ready to call for his job because he's apparently squandered three lottery picks. It's shameful.

Tyrus is really a SF/PF. He's a tweener so he definitely shouldnt be at the 5 spot ever.

I couldn't disagree more. Tyrus has the size and skills (rebounding, shot blocking, finishing) of a PF. He doesn't have the size or skills of a SF.

Tyrus I think is better doing what Chandler does. Tyrus just isn't a good basketball player. He's a good athlete yes, but not a good basketball player. Most of what he does is going to be based off athleticism. He has 0 skill for the game, which is why his jumper will probably be shaky for the while.

I respond to this argument about four times a week and I highly doubt this is the first time I've responded to you about it Red so there must be some communication break down here. Tyrus has multiple skills that are plus skills for an NBA big man: passing, dribbling, generating steals, blocking shots, and rebounding. Those things aren't based purely on athleticism.

I am no fan of "per-minute" stats, but I certainly don't think they appropriate for guys down in the paint. If we apply the "per-minute" production, personal fouls would also rise, and both Noah and Tyrus Thomas would be averaging 5 PF's a game. Clearly even if they had the energy to play the same way, they couldn't play the same way when they are in foul trouble.

I don't see that as a flaw at all. You just used per minute stats to correctly assess that both players have some trouble with fouling. I don't think energy is much of an issue when we're discussing world class athletes.

[Dearth]

I'm tired of seeing all the PER 48 minute stats for bench players. That is the most skewed stat. Same thing with the "this player averages such and such off the bench when he plays 20+ minutes" stat.

A bench player only plays extra minutes when they are playing very well so of course the stats will be inflated.

Until a player is starting and/or averaging 20+ minutes off the bench you can't really guage his per 48 minute stats. If a player is only averaging 10 minutes he might play 20 on nights he's doing very well and 3 on other nights.

Both Noah and Thomas will get their chances to earn bigger minutes as we go on. We're talking about a rookie and a second year man vs. two established veterans in Smith and Wallace. Throw Noce in the mix and of course minutes are tight.

Someone earlier said they are tired of seeing the "practice or you don't play" idea and calling it a double standard since Wallace sits out of practice. I think you've got the idea wrong it is practice hard and well and outplay people and show you've got the offensive sets and the defensive rotations down and earn minutes. If Wallace or any veteran starter has a nagging injury they will sit out practice it only makes sense.

[Johnston797]

I'm tired of seeing all the PER 48 minute stats for bench players. That is the most skewed stat. Same thing with the "this player averages such and such off the bench when he plays 20+ minutes" stat.

There are plenty of guys that played limited minutes with a high PER and retained their PER or improved it when they got big minutes in later years. Guys like Michael Redd and Zach come to mind.

So why not find out Tyrus and Noah can maintain their value. All stats (PER & +/-) say that they are more effective right now. It's ridiculous that we have a losing record and have no clue if they are actually better than our mediocre veterans.

[Red Larrivee]

I respond to this argument about four times a week and I highly doubt this is the first time I've responded to you about it Red so there must be some communication break down here. Tyrus has multiple skills that are plus skills for an NBA big man: passing, dribbling, generating steals, blocking shots, and rebounding. Those things aren't based purely on athleticism.

Tyrus's rebounding and shotblocking are majorily based off his athleticism.

Tyrus is an average passer and borderline average dribbler.

[coldfish]

I'm tired of seeing all the PER 48 minute stats for bench players. That is the most skewed stat. Same thing with the "this player averages such and such off the bench when he plays 20+ minutes" stat.

A bench player only plays extra minutes when they are playing very well so of course the stats will be inflated.

Until a player is starting and/or averaging 20+ minutes off the bench you can't really guage his per 48 minute stats. If a player is only averaging 10 minutes he might play 20 on nights he's doing very well and 3 on other nights.

This has been discussed at length all over realgm. The facts just don't back up your assertions. In most, but not all, cases where you have a reasonable sample size, production rates do not go down as minutes go up.

In many cases, production rates go up with minutes. Meaning that the player produces more per minute as they play more minutes. Tyrus from last year was a prime example of that.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Honestly, I believe it has absolutely nothing to do with who is better. Its obvious that Tyrus and Noah are better than Smith and Wallace. But that is not the point. The veterans are there because thats what the coaches want. They perfer consistant non impact over explosive,impactful but inconsistant.

Thats where I believe where coaches and fans disagree.

I am on the belief that the sooner you get the edge off of guys like Tyrus and Noah,Gray etc, the better off we will be now and in the future.

I believe that if we had kept with Tyrus from opening day till now, he would be much much better at this point and more consistant.

Even when you look at the Joe Smith signing. He was supposed to the help to the team. PJ's role so to speak. But now it looks like Smith is now supposed to be the answer and not the help. Thats where we will fail.

Basically now we are comparing PJ and Tyrus last year verses just Joe Smith this year because Tyrus isnt playing.

My biggest hope is that this is Paxson's strategy to make a move of Wallace at some point this season. I want to definately keep Smith. But I believe that if Wallace were gone, we would be much much better off. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind we would be a better team with Tyrus,Noah and Gray taking up more front court time and having a slashing big guard instead of Wallace.

[DASMACKDOWN]

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Tyrus's rebounding and shotblocking are majorily based off his athleticism.

Tyrus is an average passer and borderline average dribbler.

Just to point out, guys that are uber athletic tend to rebound and shotblock based on athletism. Thats why they are athletic. The technique comes later. Tyrus is much like Tyson in that regard. Tyson a 7-1 guy only rebounded because of athletism and height. Later Tyson started using more positioning which then consistantly vaulted his rebound numbers. The same will happen for Tyrus.

But as far as passing is concerned... You should base your argument against his peers.

Tyrus avgs 1.2 asts per game in 17.1mins.

Put that in perspective when considering a numbers like...

KG(ranked highest in the East for PFs) 3.6asts in 35.2mins
Boozer 3.1asts 35.5mins
Amare 1.2asts 31.3mins
Al Jefferson 1.5asts 36.4mins
Gooden 1.1asts 32.9mins
etc

Tyrus ranks very high for PFs in asts despite playing substantially less minutes.

Then take into account, how many touches Tyrus actually gets compared to others. The number will look even more impressive. He even has a healthy 1.07 asts per turnover.

So in reality, Tyrus is actually above avg in the passing department despite peoples personal beliefs.

On his ball handling/dribbling, I actually think he is a very good dribbler. The problem is he hasnt found his niche of when to give up the ball. When he has the lane or when he doesnt. Thats the problem. Its not the dribbling thats the problem, its the decision making when he dribbles.

[shrink]

There are plenty of guys that played limited minutes with a high PER and retained their PER or improved it when they got big minutes in later years. Guys like Michael Redd and Zach come to mind.

Mike James comes to mind on the other side.

As for my examples of personal fouls, the logic is that if you project points, you have to project personal fouls. Players with limited minutes can play with more of a disregard for fouls if they know they won't play enough minutes to foul out.

[kyrv]

As I have said many times-- players improve and prove themselves the most in practice, the weight room and the offseason. Just because our two young bigs don't play much, doesn't mean we are stunting their growth

I don't understand - why is Seattle playing Durant so much in games when he could be spending that time in the weight room? Why do Aldridge, Gay, and Roy get so much playing time? Why did James get so much playing time as a rookie?

Follow up, at what point in non-playing will Tyrus and Noah be developed? Not playing for two years? Three years?