Joe Smith appreciation thread

[coldfish]

One guy who gets rarely discussed on this board is Joe Smith. He was a relatively minor acquisition and somewhat controversial in that his minutes were going to take away from the young guys.

So far this season, Joe has been one of the few pleasant surprises. He:
- Plays defense better than I would have thought, especially taking charges.
- Rebounds well, especially in traffic.
- He plays in the post some and is consistent with that mid range shot the PF's have to hit for Chicago.
- He generally plays smart. He is rarely out of position, doesn't seem lazy and has few mental mistakes.
- Seems to be a pleasant teammate. You never see him sulking.

Overall, he is a pretty good MLE acquisition. I used to just consider him trade fodder, but he is a pretty good value at his contract amount and I would hesitate to just give him away.

[mr.ankle]

To Me he is the Bulls most talented Big Man . I don't mind giving him 30 minutes a game

[bagsboy]

He played well early against Orlando.
I don't understand why he sat the second half of the game.

[suckfish]

He really hasn't surprised me, the minute we signed him I knew that he was capable of hitting that midrange jumpshot consistently and it was obvious that he was going to be a huge upgrade over PJ. He is an experienced veteran and I for one am glad that he is on this team.

I think people are reluctant to praise him because he is taking minutes from Tyrus and Joakim. It's a shame we have this frontcourt jam, you can't help but think if Joe wasn't here then there would be more minutes available.

He is actually one of my favorite bulls at the moment, Joe Bloggs and Lu will always have a place in my heart.

[DJhitek]

Yeah, this kind of echoes my feelings, if we have this guy last year instead of PJ than I think that team probably wins more than 50 games.

[eNgIeS]

His emergence reminds me of PJ Brown. Took a lil while to settle in but looks good now and i think thou not as solid as PJ he still gives Wallace a guy with size to help out a lil

[jax98]

Definitely the most consistant big man we've had this year. A huge plus for this team.

[BigUps]

Joe Smith is a Catch-22. You like him because he's playing well, but you hate him because he's part of a larger problem.

I'm still on the fence with his signing. I like the fact that he's producing, but I think it'll cost us in the long run. I have a hard time enjoying his play when I know his play could be a huge detriment to the Bulls' future.

At this point, I can honestly say that I wish we wouldn't have signed him. He's been good, but I think signing a larger 2 guard or a scoring guard may have been a better signing.

[JimmyJammer]

Joe Smith is a Catch-22. You like him because he's playing well, but you hate him because he's part of a larger problem.

I'm still on the fence with his signing. I like the fact that he's producing, but I think it'll cost us in the long run. I have a hard time enjoying his play when I know his play could be a huge detriment to the Bulls' future.

At this point, I can honestly say that I wish we wouldn't have signed him. He's been good, but I think signing a larger 2 guard or a scoring guard may have been a better signing.

Your kind of thinking is actually one that has been detrimental to the fan base of the bulls. You are one of those fans who cares more about individual than team. How can someone find anything negative to say about the Joe Smith's signing? He is a good player, professional, and he was only signed for 2 years. In 1year and a half Joe will probably be gone, and Tyrus will only be 23 years old and ready to contribute in a major way. What is wrong with that? I don't understand this line of thinking, you sound more like a TT's fan than a bulls' fan.

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-



Your kind of thinking is actually one that has been detrimental to the fan base of the bulls. You are one of those fans who cares more about individual than team. How can someone find anything negative to say about the Joe Smith's signing? He is a good player, professional, and he was only signed for 2 years. In 1year and a half Joe will probably be gone, and Tyrus will only be 23 years old and ready to contribute in a major way. What is wrong with that? I don't understand this line of thinking, you sound more like a TT's fan than a bulls' fan.

I don't think that's fair. There are two lines of thinking in general. Some people place little value in winning 40-50 games every year and that's what Joe Smith represents. Those people generally want to take risks to try to become elite, and that is what Tyrus represents.

[BigUps]

Your kind of thinking is actually one that has been detrimental to the fan base of the bulls. You are one of those fans who cares more about individual than team. How can someone find anything negative to say about the Joe Smith's signing? He is a good player, professional, and he was only signed for 2 years. In 1year and a half Joe will probably be gone, and Tyrus will only be 23 years old and ready to contribute in a major way. What is wrong with that? I don't understand this line of thinking, you sound more like a TT's fan than a bulls' fan.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, because you're not understanding what I'm saying.

I like Joe Smith, I do. He's been fantastic so far, but that doesn't mean that he was the right way to spend our MLE. With the logjam at PF, adding him to the mix isn't necessarily making our team better. This has nothing to do with Tyrus at all, nothing, but rather team need.

If were thin anywhere were thin at the guard spot. Adding a guard that could slash, penetrate, score and so on (think Pargo) would have been a better signing IMO. I wanted us to sign Eddie House, didn't happen. This would have given us a scorer off the bench, something were sorely missing and *part* of the reason Gordon has moved to the bench.

So, my opinion has nothing to do with TT or Smith and everything to do with team need. Well, team need as I see it.

[Red Larrivee]

No complaints about Smith from me. He's doing more than what he signed up for. I knew he'd be a huge upgrade from PJ and Malik, and he's alot more consistent than them, reliable, and a better teammate.

The Last 5 Games
14.0 PPG / 6.6 RPG / 55% FG / 1.0 BPG / 24.4 MPG

December
10.3 PPG / 5.0 RPG / 48% FG / .5 BPG / 20.9 MPG

More Joe definitely isn't a bad thing.

[JimmyJammer]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't think that's fair. There are two lines of thinking in general. Some people place little value in winning 40-50 games every year and that's what Joe Smith represents. Those people generally want to take risks to try to become elite, and that is what Tyrus represents.

I think Tyrus should use this as a motivating tool. We all know that he is very gifted athletically, but we are not quite sure about elite yet. I don't think sitting behind a couple of veterans who have there should deter him from becoming great, if greatness is really in him. I remember Jermaine O'neal sitting behind veterans like Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant and Sabonis, but he never stopped working hard to be where he wanted to be. In two years both Wallace and Joe Smith will not even be around, therefore Tyrus has nothing to worry about. Noah and Tyrus are being groomed to replace these guys when they are no longer with the franchise. I hate to turn this into another Tyrus' thread, but it is probably well on its way. Why can't we appreciate Joe Smith without feeling insecure about Tyrus?

[kyrv]

Joe Smith is a Catch-22. You like him because he's playing well, but you hate him because he's part of a larger problem.

I'm still on the fence with his signing. I like the fact that he's producing, but I think it'll cost us in the long run. I have a hard time enjoying his play when I know his play could be a huge detriment to the Bulls' future.

At this point, I can honestly say that I wish we wouldn't have signed him. He's been good, but I think signing a larger 2 guard or a scoring guard may have been a better signing.

Same here.

I posted a week or so ago, I wish Joe Smith was either better or worse.

At his current level of play, it can be argued whether or not playing him ultimately helps the Bulls. If he was better, there would be no question, and if he was worse, he could sit with no questions.

Joe Smith seems to be a great guy and a great teammate.

P.S. Edit - I should add, when Joe Smith laughed after missing his second dunk in five minutes, I felt that was very inappropriate and it's a good thing one of the young bigs didn't do that. Blowing layups and dunks on a last place team - not cute, not funny, at least to me.

[Neusch23]

If Tyrus were playing as well as Joe, he would be playing.

Since day one, when some of our top posters started long threads about how is was a horrible signing I have looked to it as a very good signing.

The problem we are near now is that the entire purpose of Joe being here is defeated if we keep playing poorly and loosing games.

He is more than just a vet big man because you can not compare him to PJ who is still 6 years older and not in his prime.

I believe that we would have 4-5 more wins if we would stick with Joe for larger parts of the game, playing him in the Center position during key stretches where we can't make a shot. He is a good enough rebounder to even have in with our stupid 3 guard line up.

[kyrv]

If Tyrus were playing as well as Joe, he would be playing.

.

How could Tyrus play as well, when he doesn't play? When Tyrus was originally pulled from the starting lineup it was to shake things up, he was playing the best or second best to Deng at that time.


Anyway, let me ask - assume Joe Smith plays as well as he is now for two years, and then moves on. You have three nondeveloped or underdeveloped bigs that you need to make decisions on, and aren't ready to take over. Was this a good signing?

I don't know personally, maybe Pax isn't keeping them all, maybe he thinks they aren't that good really. Mayabe he doesn't care, maybe he'll let them go and just get another MLE vet to replace Joe Smith.

I do think playing Joe Smith could be trading a win or two now for a lot more wins later.

[Rerisen]

While I appreciate the solid play Joe has brought, his signing has realized every fear I hoped it would not and then some.

I thought at a worse case, Joe would come in and play so solidly that Skiles would continue to play him ahead of Noah and Tyrus, under the cover of the Bulls racking up wins like we did last year with P.J. Except we haven't even got the wins part out of the deal, instead Joe is used more like a plug in a dam to try and make losing scores look somewhat respectable.

[dougthonus]

If Tyrus were playing as well as Joe, he would be playing.

Joakim Noah has dominated Ben Wallace in value on the court, but he's not playing over Ben Wallace.

Last year, Tyrus Thomas dominated PJ Brown in every category and wasn't playing over PJ Brown.

I think there is little evidence to suggest the current coaching staff will go with a young guy just because he's playing well. They will play guys based on mistakes not overall impact.

[Rerisen]

I think there is little evidence to suggest the current coaching staff will go with a young guy just because he's playing well. They will only look at the mistakes he brings rather than all of the things that they can do that the older guys can not do.

Which might maybe make sense if the Bulls were a 'win now' team. As in you decide to err on the side of caution with your young guys that they might play worse than is acceptable and therefore stick with the known quantities. But how anyone can look at the Bulls this year and see 'win now' as being a realistic description of our talent is beyond me.

Even when Wallace and Joe are respectively playing better than Noah and Tyrus it is to such a marginal degree that it is pretty foolish to completely stiff those young guys out of even enough minutes to keep them game sharp from one night to the next. It's not like Wallace is randomly busting out for 10 points and 20 rebounds or Joe Smith going for 20 and 10 every now and then (hasn't done it once). So I have really no idea what we are waiting for to happen out there with these veterans by sticking by them so long and every single night without deviation.

[Neusch23]

KYRV, I watched those games that Tyrus put up big numbers, and that is all they were, big numbers.

Some of the time he looked good, other times bad. he couldn't string it together for a many games.

Look I understand the point. Throw him in there, get him some experience.

This can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.

Me personally, i don't know if he will ever get it just by playing games. Him getting time, and playing the wrong way could hurt him more than not playing him until he earns the time because then he is going to get experience playing wrong, and worse would be if he continues to put ups some stats by playing wrong. It is bad enough to see the uninformed (I won't use ignorant here, even if that is the best word for it) clammer that he needs to be out there because of his +/- or what ever.

Being allowed to play dispite making tons of mistakes should not be allowed, and I am glad that they are sitting him. Players need freedom to play through mistakes, but not to play with constant mistakes in the same situation.

If a player is always out of postion the other team will figure that out and exploit it. Tyrus is that guy for us.

I know that he is a freak athlete. I know that upside wise he is far and away tops on the the team. Everything else, he just doesn't get it.

I believe that playing him puts us as one of the worst teams in the league. Top 5 lotto pick worthy. He is that bad of a fit to our system even when he is putting up numbers. (However don't get me wrong, I would love a top 5 pick this year)

How many of those games did we win when he had a huge day? I rest my case.

We have 2 choices with him. Change our system, or adapt him to our system.

I don't think you're going to get an answer to that this season because we hired an assistant to play this season out. Next year if we have a different coach, most likely we have a differnt system.

Tyrus and Wallace are horrible fits to the type of system we run. Wallace is a smart player and can, when he wants to make up for some of his short comings, but we still need to use him right.

Our best fit still, IMO would be to go big and fast with Deng at the 2, Noc at the 3, Tyrus or Smith at the 4, and Wallace cleaning things up with Gordon at the point. But this is what I meant by another system. I am confident that RIGHT NOW, Tyrus could be a double/double player in PHX, in Chi though he has no business being in. We run to complex of sets on both sides of the ball. Everything relies on players knowing how to react based off of how the situation changes.

This is why we some times get caught out of postion for easy 3's. Remember the clips game where Tim Thomas hit all of those 3's for example.

Also, I hear sooooo many people talk about noc and his agressive D play and roaming while others (like myself) complain about Tyrus's roaming. They are completely different.

Each player has some freedom to roam. We don't run a robotic defense. But you have to understand the bondries of the D, and your role in the D. For instance. You have an area around your man in the Bulls verision of man to man, but you also have to also be a help defender.

This means that is the hot player (man with the ball) comes into your area of defense (where you're guarding your man) you leave to help but not enough to completely loose your man.

This is where some screw up and wander. Everyone does it, some more than others. Worst on the team IMO are Kirk, Deng, and Tyrus. Noc could fit in there, but he usually is fairly good at getting back on his man.

Kirk could be the worst on the team since I believe that he has lost a lot of athletic ablity in recent years.

Tyrus is a whole different worm. He is all over the floor, or glued to his man which is as bad as roaming.

Our D relies on players being able to get help in order to catch up or to cheat a defender into help.

If Tyrus gets nervous as to where he should be, and sticks, and Kirk plays his defender into Tyrus's area in hopes to create a double or to set a trap for the player Tyrus is supposed to break off and help. Some times he is chasing back into the play because a pass brought the ball from the strong side to the weak side, or he sticks with his man and kirks man has a free lane to the basket.

He doesn't get how we play team D. It takes a lot of reps, a lot of practice. he is still a young player.

I could write just as much about offense, and his role, but so many here seem to think that he is so good on D, and that is why he should be in, but the truth is that he shouldn't until he learns our system OR we go with a more standard defense. When we have run zone he has done better, funny enough. I believe that he is more used to playing in a zone and understanding his role.

I am not doubting that he is productive, he can put up numbers, stats. But the stats he puts up are not relitive stats in the outcome of the game.

He has a lot to learn about basketball. A lot. But the natural ablity is there. That ablity can't be taught. You either have it or you don't. Tyrus has it. Many others don't.

I have faith, but I am happy when I don't see him in the games because he just isn't ready with the exception of spot minutes to show his progress. Those should then be used to earn more time.

Either way I strongly believe the best thing for him is to continue to practice. Work hard. The time will come for him when he can learn the system.

Obviously it is something that is harder for him. With the right coach and system Tyrus will be a very valuable player for us.