Joe Smith appreciation thread

[dougthonus]

As soon as I get a spare hour, there is a Bulls beat rant coming on about the Bulls, and this topic will dominate the conversation

[BrooklynBulls]

As soon as I get a spare hour, there is a Bulls beat rant coming on about the Bulls, and this topic will dominate the conversation

Sweet, I've been jonesing.

[coldfish]

Being allowed to play dispite making tons of mistakes should not be allowed, and I am glad that they are sitting him. Players need freedom to play through mistakes, but not to play with constant mistakes in the same situation.

If a player is always out of postion the other team will figure that out and exploit it. Tyrus is that guy for us.

I know that he is a freak athlete. I know that upside wise he is far and away tops on the the team. Everything else, he just doesn't get it.

I won't comment on Tyrus, because we are both set on our positions. That being said, what is your position on Nocioni? As Doug has pointed out, Nocioni makes about a million more mistakes per game than Tyrus does on both sides of the court.

Now, Nocioni is aggressive and that aggressiveness often leads to good things happening. However, by your rationale, he should never, ever see the court. The bolded comments describe Andres to a T.

[Neusch23]

If Tyrus were playing as well as Joe, he would be playing.

Joakim Noah has dominated Ben Wallace in value on the court, but he's not playing over Ben Wallace.

Last year, Tyrus Thomas dominated PJ Brown in every category and wasn't playing over PJ Brown.

I think there is little evidence to suggest the current coaching staff will go with a young guy just because he's playing well. They will play guys based on mistakes not overall impact.

Doug please see my above post for a detailed example of why this isn't true, IMO.

I believe last year PJ was slowwwwww, but he played very smart.

In my opinion having 5 guys playing as a team is better than 4 guys on the same page and one running around racking up stats.

If Tyrus could do what he was doing while staying with the flow of the offense and Defense he would be a beast.

Until then when he is on the floor everything breaks down.

Some times I wonder if it would be easier finding a handicaped spot at the special olympics than it would be Tyrus understanding his role in the O or D.

[Rerisen]

I am not doubting that he is productive, he can put up numbers, stats. But the stats he puts up are not relitive stats in the outcome of the game.

Just curious do you see Ben Wallace's stats as relative to the outcome of the game?

He is currently 17 in blocks per game but 47th in blocks per minute behind guys like Bogut and Robert Horry. That kind of gives up the smoke and mirrors reality of his big minutes.

When Wallace plays for 40+ minutes he can stand in the paint all night get 1 or 2 blocks against guards that get in trouble and have no business taking a shot (rarely does he stuff big men scorers). Otherwise he rarely affects shots because he is too short (unlike Chandler for instance who could just stand there and put his hands up), doesn't like to jump except for rarely picking his spots and is not that quick to get over unless he is already in front of a driving player. He then also can collects about 8-10 rebounds in 40+ most of which fall into his hands because everyone is running back. When he faces a guy like Howard I don't think he honestly has any hope of winning 1 rebound given even vantage points. His best hope is to do a leaping swat at the ball and hope it lands somewhere where the other team won't grab it and/or start a fast break.

He offers all that on defense and then shoots 32% from the field missing easy ones where no one is around. If others are around, they can simply foul him to prevent automatic baskets and then he will shoot 51% from the line. That is without even getting into his affects on killing ball rotation ever making it to the open man, or stuff like the hideous pick and roll plays we run with him and our better scorers which end up crippling the ball handler more than helping them.

[Neusch23]

As soon as I get a spare hour, there is a Bulls beat rant coming on about the Bulls, and this topic will dominate the conversation

Well then I should be on it to Ballance the conversation!

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



I won't comment on Tyrus, because we are both set on our positions. That being said, what is your position on Nocioni? As Doug has pointed out, Nocioni makes about a million more mistakes per game than Tyrus does on both sides of the court.

Now, Nocioni is aggressive and that aggressiveness often leads to good things happening. However, by your rationale, he should never, ever see the court. The bolded comments describe Andres to a T.

Please read my "Book" post again.

I talked about noc.

He gets over agressive a lot as well, HOWEVER you will see that he is MUCH better at understanding the boundries of his role.

For instance, Noc and Wallace are very similar in that they will cheat off of their guys a lot. Tyrus does this as well.

However the difference is that Wallace and Noc "generally" are not far enough out of position to still put a play on their man and contest the shot.

The worst part that I have seen is when Tyrus just sticks his man and plays YMCA man to man. This kills a help defense because now you can not play off of Tyrus as one of the guards.

Don't tell me that good teams with quick, penatrating guards don't see this and just spread out Tyrus's man, for an easy layup.

I will set up the play.

Tyrus gets spread out. Kirks man catchs the ball at the top of the key and heads to the basket on Tyrus side.

However Tyrus has been spread out. So now Wallace is coming from the weak side leaving his defender to try and make a play, and the finish is a layup with people saying that Wallace just gave him a lane, when it was tyrus who set the whole thing up.

Tyrus should have gave his man some room, stayed just out of the paint protecting the strong side of the hoop and allowing kirk to play his man into a double with help from tyrus. IF Tyrus's man is a shooter and has spread to the 3 in the corner, then it is kirks man to switch to in our system. Just one example of what I see just about every time Tyrus is on the floor.

[Neusch23]

Rerisen, we knew what we were getting from wallace on the O side of the ball before we paid him.

As for D, he is playing out of position, IMO. He should be used as more of a PF on D which is generally a help defender. This is his strength. We use him as more of an on the ball defender.

[Rerisen]

Rerisen, we knew what we were getting from wallace on the O side of the ball before we paid him.

As for D, he is playing out of position, IMO. He should be used as more of a PF on D which is generally a help defender. This is his strength. We use him as more of an on the ball defender.

I just found it odd that now you even bashing Tyrus's stats as if they are worth less than other players. You can rip his intangibles if you want, but that doesn't erase his points or defense. Especially in something like blocks, where I see Tyrus come over and actually erase shots where no other defender is around and are probably going in the hoop without him. And I see Wallace block shots that are the type you get just because you are a big man standing there, like Andrew Bogut gets or something.

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



I just found it odd that now you even bashing Tyrus's stats as if they are worth less than other players. You can rip his intangibles if you want, but that doesn't erase his points or defense. Especially in something like blocks, where I see Tyrus come over and actually erase shots where no other defender is around and are probably going in the hoop without him. And I see Wallace block shots that are the type you get just because you are a big man standing there, like Andrew Bogut gets or something.

I don't know how I could have explained the reasoning for his stats from a coach's view any better than I did.

I am not bashing anyone. I am giving you the reasons for him not playing. I am giving you the reasons why some of his stats (while helping his per) hurt our team concept.

Please don't mistake a comment I made as an attempt to show disrespect for the man, that is far from the case. I am just a small voice trying to show some people what I see the reasoning being. Because from a coach's perspecive. I wouldn't play him in this system either. It just isn't right for him. There is too many options. Too many tangables that he has to understand in order to play his role on the team. He will need more practice before he can be productive. Practice that isn't served well in a live game.

He has to prove that he is starting to understand his role, IMO. He has to know what to do, and how to do it.

Because even though he may block one shot, he did so out of position. Being able to do that with in his role is what they need him to do.

People are not seeing the plays where he leaves his man to make a block, but the play changes and now he leaves the team out to dry because he took a chance much too far away from his position in the D.

Where as when Noc and Wallace do it , they generally do it with in an area of their position, and if the play changes, they can still get back into position.

Make sense? Once tyrus learns this he could really put up some impressive numbers because of his athletic ablity.

[kyrv]

Rerisen, we knew what we were getting from wallace on the O side of the ball before we paid him.

As for D, he is playing out of position, IMO. He should be used as more of a PF on D which is generally a help defender. This is his strength. We use him as more of an on the ball defender.

I don't quite get this, opponent PF's include Boozer, Duncan, Odom, Rasheed Wallace, Randolph, Bosh, Rashard Lewis, to name a few - how is guarding the PF a help position?

If you are saying they are more likely to switch, that depends on both teams, right?

[Rerisen]

Make sense? Once tyrus learns this he could really put up some impressive numbers because of his athletic ablity.

According to what you have said, we paid 60 million dollars to have Ben Wallace play out of position where he is not all that effective and wasted a no. 2 draft pick (essentially) on a guy that doesn't fit our system. No that doesn't make sense to me.

[kyrv]

Once tyrus learns this he could really put up some impressive numbers because of his athletic ablity.

Right, which is my question, if the Bulls believe what you said, why isn't he playing? If the Bulls organization believes his upside is higher than Joe Smith's or a declining Ben Wallace, or Noc at PF, he should be playing. If they don't feel that way, they shouldn't have drafted him and should perhaps trade him.

[fudgie]

Neusch, you seem to be suggesting that when Tyrus is in the game all he's doing is racking up glory stats and not helping the team. However, last year the team had a much better record the more Tyrus played.

Games in which Tyrus played 20+ minutes: 13-3
15+ minutes: 25-5
10+ minutes: 34-15
Under 10 minutes: 10-13

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't quite get this, opponent PF's include Boozer, Duncan, Odom, Rasheed Wallace, Randolph, Bosh, Rashard Lewis, to name a few - how is guarding the PF a help position?

If you are saying they are more likely to switch, that depends on both teams, right?

This is my biggest issue with boards....positions are not typical.

Meaning Kirk is listed at a point but he plays most minutes as a SG.

Wallace has always been listed as a C. however in detroit he always played off of the ball.

Meaning in our D he would play non dominate post player, he would be a weakside defender.

Most teams don't have 2 post players with back to the basket games. Sheed guarded these players whether they were a 4 or a 5. Just because he is the PF doesn't mean he guards the PF.

Just like because kirk is listed as a point doesn't mean he hardly ever plays point for us.

Wallace should play off of the ball. Problem we have is that we don't have anyone else that is a good on the ball defender at a power postion. So wallace does it...even if he becomes a much better player as a weak side defender.

I think that Noah could, in time.....but that doesn't help us now. In other words, he is out of position.

[Neusch23]

Neusch, you seem to be suggesting that when Tyrus is in the game all he's doing is racking up glory stats and not helping the team. However, last year the team had a much better record the more Tyrus played.

Games in which Tyrus played 20+ minutes: 13-3
15+ minutes: 25-5
10+ minutes: 34-15
Under 10 minutes: 10-13

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Wonderful. We were winning, and thus they let him play through more. It only has meaning to those that want to dig it up and try to make more of it than what it is worth.

It is still a team game. We have team D. Last season we played really well as a unit, and were able to play through tyrus's mistakes.

This season that is obviously not the case.

So, when tyrus goes into his crazy mode, the other 4 are no longer playing as great as last season, and we give up wide open looks and easy lanes to the basket.

I seriously believe that when we were shooting our worst, and our D was not playing as a unit, that we would have been beaten by most top college programs.

We are doing better now, but we have a ways to go.

[Rerisen]

It is still a team game. We have team D. Last season we played really well as a unit, and were able to play through tyrus's mistakes.

This season that is obviously not the case.

We don't even know if he is making mistakes because he doesn't play this year! He has been getting DNP's or 5 minute stretches. You can't tell in 5 minutes how a guy is going to play for a whole game. If that was the case every single game of this season would have seen Kirk, Wallace, Gordon, Deng, or Joe Smith yanked after 5 minutes of starting the game never put back in.

[Neusch23]

It is still a team game. We have team D. Last season we played really well as a unit, and were able to play through tyrus's mistakes.

This season that is obviously not the case.

We don't even know if he is making mistakes because he doesn't play this year! He has been getting DNP's or 5 minute stretches. You can't tell in 5 minutes how a guy is going to play for a whole game. If that was the case every single game of this season would have seen Kirk, Wallace, Gordon, Deng, or Joe Smith yanked after 5 minutes of starting the game never put back in.

Trust me, I know he is making the mistakes. You just have to watch him out there, and look and understand which set the team is in...if you understand the sets on O, and what they are running on D, you will pick up every mistake by every player very easy.

For every action there should be a = reaction to combat it. If we don't react fast enough or if someone is out of position the play is dead.

You can tell that in 5 minutes. If they are treating this as a learning experience for him, then they are playing it right.

Teach him in practice. Work hard on the situations he will face in the game. Put him out there where we are running the same situations (offensive sets, and D) and see how he does. If he doesn't understand in the ways you told him, take him out. He can make mistakes, just not screw up. There is a big difference between making a mistake and screwing up by not understanding where you should be.

Then he should be talked to on the bench and explained again. If we run similar sets, and the flow of the game is right for him to try again, put him out there. But right now I see him going away from Tyrus and putting in Noah, or Gray. Next game Gray may get skipped over and Tyrus get more burn.

They have 3 guys that they are basically babying with attention, and working with, so it is tough.

[fudgie]

-= original quote snipped =-

Wonderful. We were winning, and thus they let him play through more. It only has meaning to those that want to dig it up and try to make more of it than what it is worth.

Seems like a chicken or the egg arguement. After Noc went down and we went on our hottest stretch of the season I thought Tyrus was playing damn well. I believe he had a PER over 18 after the all star break. He certainly contributed to those wins.

It is still a team game. We have team D. Last season we played really well as a unit, and were able to play through tyrus's mistakes.

This season that is obviously not the case.

So, when tyrus goes into his crazy mode, the other 4 are no longer playing as great as last season, and we give up wide open looks and easy lanes to the basket.

I seriously believe that when we were shooting our worst, and our D was not playing as a unit, that we would have been beaten by most top college programs.

We are doing better now, but we have a ways to go.

So Tyrus gets benched because the other four guys on the floor suck? Early in the season when we were playing our worst ball Tyrus certainly wasn't the worst starter. The distinction goes to Wallace. Hinrich and Gordon were both worse than him and Tyrus was the one that got benched and eventually ended up in the doghouse.

It almost seems to me that the coaching staff (read: Skiles) made Tyrus a scapegoat so they could spare the veteran guys the embarassment of getting benched. Kind of ironic with all that accountability talk.

[Rerisen]

There comes a point where results are more important than process. That is NBA reality. Several games this year Smith and/or Wallace have been bad enough that Tyrus or Noah would outperform them whether they do it in exactly the way the coaching staff envisioned or not.

It's going on 2 years with Tyrus, the Bulls run the same few plays over and over. If were not going to live with some of his mistakes its time to look into a trade, because his value is plummeting and he is always going to be a high risk player.

How about we trade Tyrus and Noah to get back Malik Allen and Othella Harrington? Sure they suck and we will lose every game, but at least they know the plays and where they are supposed to be on the floor.