"Lose a trade, help the team?"

[ikeziskash]

Guys, while posting in the trade thread I realized something that hasn't been mentioned much and needs to get through to Paxson.

We can "lose" a trade with another team in terms of talent but still win the trade by bringing in someone that FITS the team better.

For example, if we trade Noc/Duhon for a big SG like the guy on Golden State or Bonzi or someone we may be losing the trade in terms of overall talent but we might be improving the team by addressing a need and removing a luxury/redundancy we can't afford (glut of PF's and small guards).

What do you guys think about this and what do you think are the odds that Paxson is aware of this and willing to do it as opposed to his usual over conservative approach?

[AirP.]

That's correct and at some point, when you get all these assets, this is what you have to do, basically overpay to get the piece you need. Paxson hopefully has a vision of what he wants with this team as in playing style and key players, he needs to use his assets for the best interest of the team.

[ikeziskash]

AirP,
But WILL he do that? Maybe Tyrus is rotting on the bench because a trade like this is already lined up???

[coldfish]

I'm tired of losing trades.

Beyond that, to what end do you dump assets to acquire middling vets to guarantee 45 to 50 wins and an early playoff exit? We basically already have that. Its just like moving deck chairs around on the Titanic. It may look a little better, but the ship is still going down.

Fundamentally, I still think the team should only be looking for trades where the guy coming in is better than what we got. You only have so much playing time available (as we are painfully aware of). The goal is to get the best players possible to take up those minutes.

[ikeziskash]

I'm tired of losing trades.

Beyond that, to what end do you dump assets to acquire middling vets to guarantee 45 to 50 wins and an early playoff exit? We basically already have that. Its just like moving deck chairs around on the Titanic. It may look a little better, but the ship is still going down.

Fundamentally, I still think the team should only be looking for trades where the guy coming in is better than what we got. You only have so much playing time available (as we are painfully aware of). The goal is to get the best players possible to take up those minutes.

Good points fish. I agree that that's more of a short term fix but this team needs to make a decision, as someone else already said, are we going to do long term development or try to win now. You can't really do both successfully, or at least we don't look like we will be able to.

[waffle]

yeah, you could say we have been doing exactly that for about a decade.

Turn it on its head, what was the last trade we WON?

EDIT: Obviously, the trade for the pick that became DENG, but that didn't involve players.

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-



Good points fish. I agree that that's more of a short term fix but this team needs to make a decision, as someone else already said, are we going to do long term development or try to win now. You can't really do both successfully, or at least we don't look like we will be able to.

I would rather just let the young kids sit on the bench than give up in general. At least maybe next year they could play and who knows if a good deal comes up in the mean time.

[Cliff Levingston]

Here's a trade Cliff Levingston would gladly lose (that Cliff Levingston thought of a couple weeks ago or so).

Ben Wallace for Malik Rose + Jerome James

Looks downright dreadful on paper. Rose and James are barely capable of being on an NBA team, if at all. Also, it only save about a million in salary next season. But, it accomplishes the goal of simply dumping Wallace for a pair of smaller contracts, one of which expires next season (which could be a nice trade piece to use in the offseason for someone like Gasol or Brand).

It also clears the log jam in the front court. All of sudden we'd have no problems finding time for Gray, Noah and Thomas as well as Smith and Nocioni.

Our front court rotation could then look something like this:

3. Deng [36], Nocioni [12]
4. Smith [14], Thomas [22], Nocioni [12]
5. Noah [26], Gray [14], Smith [8]

[coldfish]

Obviously, Cliff, the organization is not going to do that. IMO, this season is more about politics and profit than putting together a long term winner.

[Chi town]

We can lose a trade if and only if.....

It frees up money to resign Deng, Gordon, or star player with a big contract.

If it clears frontcourt mins to give to MORE TALENTED PLAYERS in T2 and Noah. They we aren't really losing the talent in the trade but rather giving our talent more time.

The perfect trade that illustrates this is...

Noc and Duhon for Salmons.

Salmons is the perfect fit as our starting SG who can handle the rock next to Gordon too. He can also play SF, he gets to the line, and is averaging 17ppg in 35mpg this year. But once Bibby and Martin come back he will only be getting 20mpg.

A GREAT FIT will make all other players better and therby making a losing talent trade null.

[DuckIII]

I'm willing to "lose" a trade depending on who we are trading. For example, I'd be willing to deal Chapu, Du, and some future considerations for a role playing veteran 2/3 that might not even be as good as Nocioni is as a 3/4 (After all, how many reserve players in the NBA are actually as good as Chapu as a general matter? Not that many.). But I think that move could help this team.

So, in some limited scenarios, I'm willing to "lose" another trade.

[Cliff Levingston]

Obviously, Cliff, the organization is not going to do that. IMO, this season is more about politics and profit than putting together a long term winner.

Totally agreed. Pax and the whole organization would take an unimaginable beating by the media and the casual fans.

But, if they were interested in competing for a championship, they would swallow their pride and make the deal. There's no way Isiah could pass on this even given his recent "we're a championship team already" quotes.

[jax98]

Here's a trade Cliff Levingston would gladly lose (that Cliff Levingston thought of a couple weeks ago or so).

Ben Wallace for Malik Rose + Jerome James

Looks downright dreadful on paper. Rose and James are barely capable of being on an NBA team, if at all. Also, it only save about a million in salary next season. But, it accomplishes the goal of simply dumping Wallace for a pair of smaller contracts, one of which expires next season (which could be a nice trade piece to use in the offseason for someone like Gasol or Brand).

It also clears the log jam in the front court. All of sudden we'd have no problems finding time for Gray, Noah and Thomas as well as Smith and Nocioni.

Our front court rotation could then look something like this:

3. Deng [36], Nocioni [12]
4. Smith [14], Thomas [22], Nocioni [12]
5. Noah [26], Gray [14], Smith [8]

Find a way to move Nocioni for a 2-3 and I'd agree. For arguments sake, let's say Maggette plus pick or filler:

C Joakim Noah 25/Aaron Gray 13/Joe Smith 10
F Joe Smith 12/Tyrus Thomas 25/Luol Deng 11
F Luol Deng 27/Corey Maggette 21
G Corey Maggette 11/Ben Gordon 33/Kirk Hinrich 4
G Kirk Hinrich 30/Chris Duhon 18

This is an extremely rough print of a tighten rotation. Obviously we'll have Thabo Sefolosha and other bench warmers in there at times. But it will be a nicely divided 9-man rotation:

Luol Deng: 38 MPG
Kirk Hinrich: 34 MPG
Ben Gordon 33 MPG
Corey Maggette: 32 MPG
Joakim Noah: 25 MPG
Tyrus Thomas: 25 MPG
Joe Smith: 22 MPG
Chris Duhon: 18 MPG
Aaron Gray: 13 MPG

[step]

Ben Wallace for Malik Rose + Jerome James

Personally I'd rather dump him for Marbury if we're looking at NY as a trading partner.

[AirP.]

I'm tired of losing trades.

Beyond that, to what end do you dump assets to acquire middling vets to guarantee 45 to 50 wins and an early playoff exit? We basically already have that. Its just like moving deck chairs around on the Titanic. It may look a little better, but the ship is still going down.

Fundamentally, I still think the team should only be looking for trades where the guy coming in is better than what we got. You only have so much playing time available (as we are painfully aware of). The goal is to get the best players possible to take up those minutes.

You have a 12 man active roster, playoffs are usually played with a 7 to 8 man roster so it's kind of easy to say you consolidate your talent into the best 7-8 man rotation you can make and the other slots are for development and insurance for injuries.

From the current view those guys would be Wallace, Smith, Deng, Hinrich, Duhon, Gordon, Nocioni with a little (Gray, Noah, Thabo, Tyrus, Griffin) tossed in that 8th and sometimes 9th slot per night. It would be great to upgrade Center, PF, SG or even PG, SF we have in Deng and Nocioni covered. We have a solid team for 7-8, that doesn't mean we can't consolidate and become a stronger 7-8 deep.


Wallace and Chandler were bad options at center without solid scoring from the rest of the starters... Chandler wouldn't be doing what he's doing without CP3 unless they just made him the scorer of a bad team which they were last year when CP3 was out. I just watched what a real PG does with an athletic big... CP3 would drive and he would throw blind lobs to Chandler who would just follow CP3s lead to the basket... it's amazing what happens when you use a player's athletic ability.

[Cliff Levingston]

Find a way to move Nocioni for a 2-3 and I'd agree. For arguments sake, let's say Maggette plus pick or filler:

C Joakim Noah 25/Aaron Gray 13/Joe Smith 10
F Joe Smith 12/Tyrus Thomas 25/Luol Deng 11
F Luol Deng 27/Corey Maggette 21
G Corey Maggette 11/Ben Gordon 33/Kirk Hinrich 4
G Kirk Hinrich 30/Chris Duhon 18

This is an extremely rough print of a tighten rotation. Obviously we'll have Thabo Sefolosha and other bench warmers in there at times. But it will be a nicely divided 9-man rotation:

Luol Deng: 38 MPG
Kirk Hinrich: 34 MPG
Ben Gordon 33 MPG
Corey Maggette: 32 MPG
Joakim Noah: 25 MPG
Tyrus Thomas: 25 MPG
Joe Smith: 22 MPG
Chris Duhon: 18 MPG
Aaron Gray: 13 MPG

How bout the trade in Cliff Levingston's sig for Mike Miller? We'd have to cut or buy out someone to make it work (depending on the order of the trades, it'd be either Nichols, Curry, Jacobsen or A. Brown).

We'd end up with this roster:

1. Hinrich, Duhon, Curry
2. Miller, Gordon, Jacobsen
3. Deng, Griffin, Nichols
4. Smith, Thomas, Rose
5. Noah, Gray, James

...which could be a rough primary rotation of:

1. Hinrich [24], Gordon [24]
2. Miller [24], Gordon [12], Hinrich [12]
3. Deng [36], Miller [12]
4. Smith [24], Thomas [24]
5. Noah [30], Gray [18]

...with the ability to move Noah down to PF, Smith up to C, Deng up to PF or Thomas down to SF if you want.

That's a tight 8 man rotation, and provided we can retain Deng and Gordon this offseason, would be well managed salary-wise.

[jax98]

Where exactly do you check those trade ID's?

I'm assuming Duhon is involved in the deal since you left him out of the rotation? But yes. I'd have no problem with that 8-man rotation. I'd cut down on Gray's minutes just a tad and give them to Tyrus, though.

[Cliff Levingston]

Where exactly do you check those trade ID's?

I'm assuming Duhon is involved in the deal since you left him out of the rotation? But yes. I'd have no problem with that 8-man rotation. I'd cut down on Gray's minutes just a tad and give them to Tyrus, though.

Go to RealGM home, and on the left there will be a place to enter the Trade Checker ID.

The deal is Nocioni + Khryapa + Sefolosha for Miller + C. Jacobsen + Andre Brown. So no, Duhon is not involved in the deal but Cliff Levingston wouldn't make him a part of the regular rotation. He's a very nice fill in for spot duty and injury/foul trouble concerns though.

And limiting Gray in favor of Thomas is fine with Cliff Levingston. Cliff Levingston would actually aim toward getting Noah and Thomas 36 minutes each and letting Smith and Gray fill in the blanks, but that wouldn't happen right away.

Anyway, the roster assembled is versatile, talented, athletic and doesn't have one position that's a liability on offense or defense.

[jax98]

-= original quote snipped =-


Go to RealGM home, and on the left there will be a place to enter the Trade Checker ID.

The deal is Nocioni + Khryapa + Sefolosha for Miller + C. Jacobsen + Andre Brown. So no, Duhon is not involved in the deal but Cliff Levingston wouldn't make him a part of the regular rotation. He's a very nice fill in for spot duty and injury/foul trouble concerns though.

And limiting Gray in favor of Thomas is fine with Cliff Levingston. Cliff Levingston would actually aim toward getting Noah and Thomas 36 minutes each and letting Smith and Gray fill in the blanks, but that wouldn't happen right away.

Anyway, the roster assembled is versatile, talented, athletic and doesn't have one position that's a liability on offense or defense.

Arh, found it. Thanks. Okay, so Chris will be used as a player only filling in when necessary. I can live with that. At least we'll have a guy with very fresh legs and experience if someone goes down.

Not a bad deal at all. Have you proposed this on the Memphis/Trade board for feedback?

[Cliff Levingston]

Not a bad deal at all. Have you proposed this on the Memphis/Trade board for feedback?

Yea. Not much response about it (which is probably a good thing) but one Memphis fan liked the deal a lot. So, it's certainly feasible (unlike the Wallace for junk trade).