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Turnovers per 40
- '04-'05: 3.72
- '05-'06: 2.90
- '06-'07: 3.68
- '07-'08: 2.53

Just thought credit should go where it's due: Ben has made a huge improvement in his turnovers compared to last season (and other seasons as well).

Yes, but his Perceived Turnover Rate is high as it's ever been.

Its not a question of how often Ben Gordon turns it over. Its a question of when he turns it over. And in the "when" department, both last season and this season have been pretty damn bad.

He has done better, but he's mostly a jumpshooter which bothers me. Rip Hamilton, Reggie Miller hell, even Kyle Kolver had/have lower TO per 40 then him. He is starting to reach Ray Allen numbers who has a career 2.6 TO per 40.

If he'd just sure up his ball handling it would help out greatly, especially in crunch time, handles are just so important and please, don't give me this crossover crap, it don't mean anything if you can't maintain your dribble under pressure. I think he just worries about what he's going to do next that he loses focus with the ball, either catching a pass or dribbling.

DuckIII wrote:Its not a question of how often Ben Gordon turns it over. Its a question of when he turns it over. And in the "when" department, both last season and this season have been pretty damn bad.

Yes I was just about to say that. Gordon this season has actually been coming up Anti-Clutch. Twice this season (it maybe more) where the Bulls have either lead or tied, Gordon made a bum turnover that resulted in a made basket on the other end.

This season period it seems the opposing team has come up clutch against us. Its just the wierdest thing. They have been hitting all the daggers, they have been making the last second shots etc.

p.s. Also Id like to point out how irritating to see Noce get blocked on the last second 3pt attempt. Ive counted 3 times this season.

DuckIII wrote:Its not a question of how often Ben Gordon turns it over. Its a question of when he turns it over. And in the "when" department, both last season and this season have been pretty damn bad.

Well, last season it was pretty bad no matter when it was. Now, just think about it. How often does he fall for no reason? Decidedly less often. How often does he charge or travel? So far, almost never. How many bad passes does he throw? A lot, but less that he used to.

We've seen improvements all over the board with Gordon, and I hope they last the full season, with his scoring percentages rising. If he combined 06-07 BG with the new, less turnover prone, makes shot in clutchtime and plays 36 minutes a game BG, he'll be a really efficient, safe player. Unless its the last two minutes of the game, apparently.

NOTE: Wanna hear an interesting story? Scott Skiles openly challenged Gordon to shoot 90% from the free throw line this year. Gordon replied "I don't know, that's tough." Some of you bashed him for it. He's 1st in the league at free throw percentage, at 92.3%. Lets hope it keeps up.

It's definitely a credit to Ben that he has cut down on his turnovers overall. He obviously has worked hard on improving his ballhandling and decision making. I'd just like to see him continue to work on two things -- not jumping into the air without knowing whether he wants to shoot or pass, and learning how to handle the ball against trapping defenses. Those are the two areas that seem to lead to the majority of his turnovers, particularly late in games.

NLK wrote:oh F#$#%#$. It figures. When his Turnovers are up, the Bulls have a good winning record. When his turnovers are down, the Bulls have a losing record. GOD #$#%#$! No more cowbell, we need BG with more turnovers, I gotta have more turnovers!

I just came back home (Austria) from my trip to Chicago (watching the last 4 homegames) and I was so sick of BG's turnovers in the final seconds of the games and especially overtimes.

He has played some really nice games latelty but if the game is on the line he simply can't deliver.

His turnover are down this year and that's good but he waits to the last minutes of the games to turn the ball over. If he fix that he'll be a better player.

bre9 wrote:His turnover are down this year and that's good but he waits to the last minutes of the games to turn the ball over. If he fix that he'll be a better player.

Cliff Levingston can't state this enough. Those turnovers are largely a result of double teams that we eagerly help the defense to do. The Ben Wallace pick and roll is nothing more than us saying "Here ya go, double Ben Gordon." Obviously Ben shouldn't lose the ball as easily as he does sometimes in these instances but this kind of thing wouldn't help any ball handler. The best result the Bulls can realistically hope for when this happens is a clean pass to the whoever is on the wing (but also tightly defended).

The point; Ben Gordon has trouble with the ball when crowded and double teamed. Yea that sucks but we shouldn't be helping the defense do it's job. Cliff Levingston is 100% sure that if we would just give Ben an iso at the top of the key instead of a pick, you'd see a lot less turnovers and significantly more 4th quarter heroics.

Cliff Levingston wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Cliff Levingston can't state this enough. Those turnovers are largely a result of double teams that we eagerly help the defense to do. The Ben Wallace pick and roll is nothing more than us saying "Here ya go, double Ben Gordon." Obviously Ben shouldn't lose the ball as easily as he does sometimes in these instances but this kind of thing wouldn't help any ball handler. The best result the Bulls can realistically hope for when this happens is a clean pass to the whoever is on the wing (but also tightly defended).

The point; Ben Gordon has trouble with the ball when crowded and double teamed. Yea that sucks but we shouldn't be helping the defense do it's job. Cliff Levingston is 100% sure that if we would just give Ben an iso at the top of the key instead of a pick, you'd see a lot less turnovers and significantly more 4th quarter heroics.

I know Gordon has to much pressure on him especially at the end of games because that's when he doing lot scoring and getting a lot attention. But if he wants to be a great player he has to get smarter and act to the defense faster and smarter.

bre9 wrote:I know Gordon has to much pressure on him especially at the end of games because that's when he doing lot scoring and getting a lot attention. But if he wants to be a great player he has to get smarter and act to the defense faster and smarter.

You're totally missing the point. Cliff Levingston has acknowledged Gordon's pitfalls as a player, but saying "that doesn't matter, you have to play through them" is Skiles-think. Bringing the pick to a guy who has proven that he doesn't need a pick to get open (and is actually better without a pick) would be akin to the Magic drawing up a play for Howard to drain a 3 to win the game. It simply does not make sense.

The bottom line is that there is A LOT more that our schemes/coaching could be doing to help minimize our players' weaknesses and maximize their strengths.

Cliff Levingston wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Cliff Levingston can't state this enough. Those turnovers are largely a result of double teams that we eagerly help the defense to do. The Ben Wallace pick and roll is nothing more than us saying "Here ya go, double Ben Gordon." Obviously Ben shouldn't lose the ball as easily as he does sometimes in these instances but this kind of thing wouldn't help any ball handler. The best result the Bulls can realistically hope for when this happens is a clean pass to the whoever is on the wing (but also tightly defended).

The point; Ben Gordon has trouble with the ball when crowded and double teamed. Yea that sucks but we shouldn't be helping the defense do it's job. Cliff Levingston is 100% sure that if we would just give Ben an iso at the top of the key instead of a pick, you'd see a lot less turnovers and significantly more 4th quarter heroics.

Now that is some insight into BGs last minute problems. BG has weaknesses but the offensive sets at the end of the games do a lot to expose them and offensive sets are much easier to fix.

Cliff Levingston wrote:Cliff Levingston can't state this enough. Those turnovers are largely a result of double teams that we eagerly help the defense to do. The Ben Wallace pick and roll is nothing more than us saying "Here ya go, double Ben Gordon."

Cliff, this is an overstatement. When Howard stripped Gordon, its true that Wallace being in the vicinity is what caused Howard to be there for the double team.

But in the Portland game, they just brought a double and stripped him. He was all alone.

And in the New Jersey blocked shot game, it was Vince Carter who blocked him, and again Gordon - by that point in the play - was all alone.

Plus, he's made bad passes in traffic on crucial possessions this season that had nothing to do with the Wallace pick and roll. It was just good old fashioned out of control decision making.

We all agree (and evidently Doug Collines, Johnny Red, and Stacey King agree) that the Wallace pick and roll is stupid. But its the cause of a very small number - by my total "1" - of Gordon's late game gaffs this season.

Gordon's assists are also down this year, I thought it should be pointed out. He's also playing a career high mpg this year.

04/05 2.0
05/06 3.0
06/07 3.6
07/08 2.8

And Ben Wallace should not be setting picks at the end of games (IMO he shouldn't even be on the floor). It's just a free double team on the ball handler and Ben Gordon doesn't handle double teams well so it's mind boggling that they still do it.

If Thabo can prove he's a decent player in the coming games I wouldn't mind seeing a Thabo-Gordon starting backcourt. Thabo's defense and ball handling could offset Gordon's weaknesses and we'd get to see if Gordon is capable of running the point. It can't be worse than what we're starting right now, Du's been awful and Hinrich has been mediocre.

DuckIII wrote:Cliff, this is an overstatement. When Howard stripped Gordon, its true that Wallace being in the vicinity is what caused Howard to be there for the double team.

But in the Portland game, they just brought a double and stripped him. He was all alone.

And in the New Jersey blocked shot game, it was Vince Carter who blocked him, and again Gordon - by that point in the play - was all alone.

Plus, he's made bad passes in traffic on crucial possessions this season that had nothing to do with the Wallace pick and roll. It was just good old fashioned out of control decision making.

We all agree (and evidently Doug Collines, Johnny Red, and Stacey King agree) that the Wallace pick and roll is stupid. But its the cause of a very small number - by my total "1" - of Gordon's late game gaffs this season.

Maybe so, but it would help him out regardless. As said, Gordon isn't perfect and will make mistakes, but it only hurts him by bringing any screener to him.

The other logical coaching move would be to not have Wallace in the game at all during crunch time.

Cliff Levingston wrote:Maybe so, but it would help him out regardless.

Absolutely agree.

Mr. Obvious says the season isn't over yet.