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Just some stats to add to the big man debate:

Joakim Noah in games where he played 15 or more minutes (12 games)
7.9 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.2 bpg, 19.6 mpg

Per 36 MPG
12.5 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 2.4 apg, 2.1 spg, 1.7 bpg , 5.4 FTA

Tyrus Thomas in games where he played 20 or more minutes (13)
9.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 1.9 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.23 spg, 23.7 mpg

Per 36 MPG
12.4 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.9 bpg, 1.5 spg, 4.3 FTA

Aaron Gray in games where he plays 12 or more minutes (10)
7.3 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.5 apg, 16.1 mpg

Per 36 MPG
15.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.7 bpg, 6.0 FTA

Joe Smith (Per 36)
17.6 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.9 spg, 1.2 bpg, 3.6 FTA

Ben Wallace (Per 36)
5.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.9 bpg, 2.3 FTA

Some things to take away:
- All of our bigs are actually playing pretty well, besides for Wallace who I hate but has played better.
- Thomas and Noah are serious stat stuffers.
- Joe Smith is the greatest player ever to put on a Bulls uniform.
- Thomas had a better season last year. Thanks, Jim.
- Our bigs aren

Wow, those stats do make you wonder what exactly our biggest problem is.
personally, if you ask me, the three biggest problems are Kirk's play, Wallace's lack of heart and the fact that Duhon is starting. (I know I'm stating the obvious, but there you go...)

TOMSPY77 wrote:Wow, those stats do make you wonder what exactly our biggest problem is.
personally, if you ask me, the three biggest problems are Kirk's play, Wallace's lack of heart and the fact that Duhon is starting. (I know I'm stating the obvious, but there you go...)

I'd definitely agree with this post. Those would be my biggest three complaints as well.

We need a PG. Badly.

Duhon, Kirk, and BG are all backup PG's. None of them should be running a team full time. I can only imagine what having a real PG would do for this team.

Unfortunately they are as elusive as the mythical "Low Post Threat".

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:We need a PG. Badly.

Duhon, Kirk, and BG are all backup PG's. None of them should be running a team full time. I can only imagine what having a real PG would do for this team.

Unfortunately they are as elusive as the mythical "Low Post Threat".

We need a lot of stuff. We were just fine with Kirk as the "real pg." I want to get back to just fine. When we're just fine, we can talk about getting a real pg, and being just dandy. You know what'll happen when we get a legit low post threat as well?

I still think Calderon is the best point guard that we'd have a chance at getting. If Ford hints at retirement they may be interested in Hinrich and Duhon for Calderon and a guy like Rasho for instance. We could also try and overpay a bit by including Noce instead of Duhon. I know this is a bit much, but we need to consolidate a few pieces and if we could get a top playmaker out of it, then it's worth overpaying.

Let's add total minutes played and PER.

Ben Wallace 1147 MP 12.0 PER
Joe Smith 791 MP 18.5 PER
Tyrus Thomas 521 MP 13.7 PER
Joakim Noah 371 MP 18.0 PER
Aaron Gray 253 MP 13.1 PER

- The player with the lowest PER has played the most minutes
- Joe Smith has earned his minutes
- Noah needs to play more, a lot more
- Tyrus needs more minutes. Some may disagree but I'm sure that if he's given regular minutes he can play the way he did in the second half of last year.

bullzman23 wrote:I still think Calderon is the best point guard that we'd have a chance at getting. If Ford hints at retirement they may be interested in Hinrich and Duhon for Calderon and a guy like Rasho for instance. We could also try and overpay a bit by including Noce instead of Duhon. I know this is a bit much, but we need to consolidate a few pieces and if we could get a top playmaker out of it, then it's worth overpaying.

I would love calderon......he's the type of PG we need. we don't need a PG like Hinrich who has to look for his shots.

We need a Calderon to Chicago thread.

Well PER 36 stats are useless when the least productive player is the one who gets major minutes and the two most talented players have to fight for 20 or so minutes per night. When Noah goes out and dominates in 20 minutes it makes Tyrus look bad because we see him playing the 3 and/or playing at 1000 mph because he's trying to earn 25 mpg of playing time in 6 minutes. When he's comfortable out there and he has a defined role (start of the season and the second half of last) he's been dominant every so often, bad just as often and decent or good every 2 outta 3 games.

Joe Smith being so awesome has hurt Tyrus too because Joe needs atleast 25 minutes a game. So while this frontcourt is very good to great 2-5, the main man is playing bad at epic levels and has gotten rewarded for doing so (headband, Skiles getting canned).

The backcourt has been a problem but right now we're in a 05-06 Tyson situation with Kirk and for whatever reason Ben Gordon HAS TO come off of the bench despite this team getting negative production from Duhon.

So that leaves a team "built on accountability" left with two of the worst players to start an NBA game without even a whisper of them getting benched because we've seen "improvement" recently by going 6-5 over a stretch of games that could have easily been 9-2 had this team not had to play with the handicaps that are Chris Duhon and Ben Wallace.

Other than Joe Smith who doesn't do it enough who here can score in the post and create offense with a back to the basket post move?

None.

We are better off tanking, drafting a good guard, and trading for Gasol....which means we need both!!

I believe Kirk is the biggest reason for our downfall, I believe he is robbing us more than Wallace is.

Neusch23 wrote:Other than Joe Smith who doesn't do it enough who here can score in the post and create offense with a back to the basket post move?

Well Gray definitely does when he gets PT.

I go back and forth on the post scoring issue. Last season, I usually felt that our problem wasn't that we were missing a post scorer necessarily, but that we didn't have enough scorers on our team, period. We basically had only four guys who had offensive game.

Gordon --> should be a second option on an elite team.
Deng --> should be a third option on an elite team.
Hinrich --> should be a fourth or fifth option, but for this particular team to succeed he needs to be a legit third option. Now he's so bad, that he's a fifth option on our team.
Noce --> 22-25 mpg sixth man.

I think we're getting enough production from our front-court to forget about our big man issue for now. It's not always pretty, but Smith is consistent, and we almost always get production from whatever young big gets minutes on that particular night.

I believe Kirk is the biggest reason for our downfall, I believe he is robbing us more than Wallace is.

I agree with this, although I think Kirk genuinely is embarassed by his poor play whereas Wallace probably doesn't give a damn.

Gray has no business playing, and if we were playing as well as we were last season he would have DNP-CD's nearly every game.

The guy slows our whole team down....he is like tying an achor on everyone when he is on the floor....but you're right he does have a post game.....I just would never play him.

Neusch23 wrote:Gray has no business playing, and if we were playing as well as we were last season he would have DNP-CD's nearly every game.

The guy slows our whole team down....he is like tying an achor on everyone when he is on the floor....but you're right he does have a post game.....I just would never play him.

Can you define what you mean by slowing our team down? Clearly he's slow footed, and I think it hurts us on defense for sure, but not on offense. I mean, of the guys who actually play, Deng is the only one who can successfully fast-break consistently. Gordon and Duhon or 'okay' at best. Hinrich is disgusting. I don't think we should play extremely fast paced if Thomas, Sefolosha, and Noah aren't playing. We're really not a good fast break team, so I don't think we should play too fast.

If anything, it seems like Gray helps increase our offense when he's on the floor.

noah and joe smith should be getting the most minutes.

Hack organization. You bring in a veteran journeyman PF to take minutes from your #2 pick last year.

Real organization: Trade the #2 pick from the get go for a positional upgrade, OR clear space and playing time for him to grow as a player.

Superbad organization: Make the #2 pick ride the pine. Play underperforming veterans at all costs. Then, when #2 is stale from inactivity, trade him for mere trinkets.

was playing around with the trade machine, did this deal

Deng, Gordon, Kirk, Duhon, Wallace

4

TMac, Alston, Francis, James, Battier and Houston can swap first round picks in 09

I like it cause we get to keep our bigs in TT and Noah and get the scorer who would help us. And is it just me or does TMac burn the Bulls a lot?
alston-TMC-Noce-Smith-Noah with Wells, TT, Thabo, Battier first off the pine.

It's nothing new to me. It's been apparent for a long time that we'd win more games if the young bigs played more minutes.

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:We need a PG. Badly.

Duhon, Kirk, and BG are all backup PG's. None of them should be running a team full time. I can only imagine what having a real PG would do for this team.

Unfortunately they are as elusive as the mythical "Low Post Threat".

Well, since the PG thing is true, the joke is on us.

Bullzman, great great stuff, thanks! A lot of people lately here are coming to the conclusion our guards need work and personally I wonder how our big men would do with a better playmaker.

I like Kirk/Du/Ben, but perhaps none is a great starting PG for a playoff team that wants to go deep.

The youngsters numbers with all of the jerking around, wow, that's really impressive. There are a lot of games where they just get two to four minutes, a little hard to get into the flow I would think for developing players.

Good job Bullzman, good job young bigs.

Here is just the per 36 stuff, with some players being jerked around with minutes:

Joakim Noah Per 36 MPG
12.5 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 2.4 apg, 2.1 spg, 1.7 bpg , 5.4 FTA

Tyrus Thomas Per 36 MPG
12.4 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.9 bpg, 1.5 spg, 4.3 FTA

Aaron Gray Per 36 MPG
15.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.7 bpg, 6.0 FTA

Joe Smith (Per 36)
17.6 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.9 spg, 1.2 bpg, 3.6 FTA

Ben Wallace (Per 36)
5.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.9 bpg, 2.3 FTA