Gordon is a horrible passer, he should never play the point

robg · Post #1 » by **robg** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:37 pm

Here are Ben Gordon's TO averages:

Year TO
04-05 2.27
05-06 2.25
06-07 3.04
07-08 2.34

man it seems as though he has been TO over more recently but he has been right on this avg. Maybe he has been a bad passer out of double teams before but i just haven't notice until now, because this guy is horrible passing out of double teams. There is no way this guy can become a point guard. i was against him being benched at first but i'm content with it now. i hope boylen starts thabo (i can't believe i just said that):lol: & kirk when kirk is healthy again. [/list]

bre9 · Post #2 » by **bre9** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:40 pm

Yep Gordon should never play the point but he's a hell of a scorer, best on the team.

Post #3 » by **coldfish** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:06 pm

I don't think Bulls fans have a proper grasp of turnovers.

There are indications that Gordon could never play point, but just looking at turnovers is a real poor indicator. Not only that, they aren't leveled for minutes played or number of possessions.

3.3, 3.5, 3.8, 3.6. That's Nash's turnovers per game the last 4 years.

Gordon is able to get by his man regularly and get into the lane. He also appears to have good court vision and regularly hits people wide open on long passes.

His issue is that he has trouble with his dribble when pressure is applied, particularly double teams. That's a critical skill for a PG and Gordon doesn't have it. He also tends to have a few bonehead decisions per game.

Can Gordon improve his handle and decision making? Possibly, but its a little late in the game for him.

girlygirl · Post #4 » by **girlygirl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:18 pm

I'm not a fan of Gordon playing PG for any long stretches of time, although I have no problems with him doing it for a few minutes each game. He's not a horrid passer so much as he tends to make poor decisions with the ball at times and turns it over way too much whenever he faces any kind of real defensive pressure. He also gets too fancy at times when he tries to take his defender off the dribble.

All these things should be correctable wih more experience. But he simply doesn't have the mentality or the floor vision to be a true PG. He is what he is -- a SG who can help with the ballhandling and playmaking duties.

Post #5 » by **DuckIII** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:26 pm

If there is going to be any discussion of giving a guy more run at point guard, it begins and ends with Thabo. He handles man pressure better than Gordon, looks to initiate the offense first, and isn't anywhere near as susceptible to the double team due to his height and ability to split defenders.

Wingy · Post #6 » by **Wingy** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:16 pm

Agreed Duck, but you knew that already on this subject. All you savants that are so convinced he's clearly a SF...did you see how he crossed up Baron a couple times last night? How can you not see this guy's guard skills? The man will be able to play the 1, 2 and 3.

"Bustalosha" my ass. I love how 95% of the board gave up on him after 1.25 years in the league.

As for BG, I disagree with the OP. I don't mind BG playing some PG. I'd love to see a lot more of the BG/Thabo backcourt and let them play interchangeably.

girlygirl · Post #7 » by **girlygirl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:27 pm

Wingy, all of the Bulls' guards can pull sweet crossover moves on occasion. That doesn't equal being a PG.

I don't think Thabo is a true PG -- like BG and Kirk, he's a combo guard (or in his case, guard/forward) who won't kill you if he plays the point, but isn't going o morph into a tall version of Nash, Kidd, Paul or DWill.

Should he get some more minutes at the PG? Sure, why not? It wouldn't do any harm, certainly not the way the season's going. But I don't see him as a long-term answer at the 1. I think he's a natural 2/3.

Wingy · Post #8 » by **Wingy** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:35 pm

girlygirl wrote:Wingy, all of the Bulls' guards can pull sweet crossover moves on occasion. That doesn't equal being a PG.

I don't think Thabo is a true PG -- like BG and Kirk, he's a combo guard (or in his case, guard/forward) who won't kill you if he plays the point, but isn't going o morph into a tall version of Nash, Kidd, Paul or DWill.

Should he get some more minutes at the PG? Sure, why not? It wouldn't do any harm, certainly not the way the season's going. But I don't see him as a long-term answer at the 1. I think he's a natural 2/3.

I never said he was a true 1, and I am in the same boat with you that he should play more PG, but I agree and do not think that's what he should be the majority of the time. I'm just responding to those who are pigeon-holing him into the SF spot. It seems pretty clear that he has plenty of skills to play the 2-guard spot and the fact that he can play some 1 shoots down the idea that he's just a SF even more. All those that say we need a big guard for defense...y'all, he's already on the roster.

Leslie Forman · Post #9 » by **Leslie Forman** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:17 pm

Turnovers alone are a useless indicator.

Gordon's assist:turnover ratiors are not very encouraging, however. He's averaging 2.8:2.34 this year. That's barely any better than his career average of 2.9:2.5.

In 282 career regular season games, his career high in assists is 9. He has gotten 8 once, and 7 eight times. That's 10 games out of 282 that he has ever gotten more than 6 assists. In 22 playoff games, he did get 11 once. But his next best? 5, three times. Kirk is playing like total dog crap and is still averaging 6.1 assists a game.

It's his fourth year in the league now, so any ideas that he's going to make any kind of big leap in this category is hard to fathom.

I know assist:turnover isn't everything either, but if you've got a worse ratio than Michael Redd (who has somehow had three 9 assist games just this season), perhaps you should not be a point guard.

MGB8 · Post #10 » by **MGB8** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:23 pm

coldfish wrote:I don't think Bulls fans have a proper grasp of turnovers.

There are indications that Gordon could never play point, but just looking at turnovers is a real poor indicator. Not only that, they aren't leveled for minutes played or number of possessions.

3.3, 3.5, 3.8, 3.6. That's Nash's turnovers per game the last 4 years.

Gordon is able to get by his man regularly and get into the lane. He also appears to have good court vision and regularly hits people wide open on long passes.

His issue is that he has trouble with his dribble when pressure is applied, particularly double teams. That's a critical skill for a PG and Gordon doesn't have it. He also tends to have a few bonehead decisions per game.

Can Gordon improve his handle and decision making? Possibly, but its a little late in the game for him.

I don't know that it is so late in the game. It took Billups and Mo Williams a while. We need to give Gordon a chance to develop the skills - he is still a young player, years from his prime.

This season, Gordon's dribble is improved. It's still not good under pressure, as you point out. But it is better than it was last season, particularly in terms of controlling the ball to make space for himself. His passing instinct isn't great, but it isn't awful either. He's comparable to Kirk. I really want to see the Bulls give Gordon a shot at primary point before they decide to move him Let's see what he's got over a twenty or thirty game span. Even if it is more "be primary point with the 2nd unit playing next to Thabo."

MGB8 · Post #11 » by **MGB8** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm

girlygirl wrote:
All these things should be correctable wih more experience. But he simply doesn't have the mentality or the floor vision to be a true PG. He is what he is -- a SG who can help with the ballhandling and playmaking duties.

I think this describes Hinrich as well, which is one of the things that is at the core of the Bulls problems. Worse, with Kirk, because he's been given years to develop into a true PG.

MGB8 · Post #12 » by **MGB8** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:26 pm

tong po wrote:Turnovers alone are a useless indicator.

Gordon's assist:turnover ratiors are not very encouraging, however. He's averaging 2.8:2.34 this year. That's barely any better than his career average of 2.9:2.5.

In 282 career regular season games, his career high in assists is 9. He has gotten 8 once, and 7 eight times. That's 10 games out of 282 that he has ever gotten more than 6 assists. In 22 playoff games, he did get 11 once. But his next best? 5, three times. Kirk is playing like total dog crap and is still averaging 6.1 assists a game.

It's his fourth year in the league now, so any ideas that he's going to make any kind of big leap in this category is hard to fathom.

I know assist:turnover isn't everything either, but if you've got a worse ratio than Michael Redd (who has somehow had three 9 assist games just this season), perhaps you should not be a point guard.

I don't think the number is a fair assesment given what each player is asked to do within the offense. Gordon is being asked to score first, to create for himself first, and passing is a second, maybe even third thing.

I've been REALLY encouraged with the ball movement the last two games. The Bulls have done a great job in the half court offense of moving the ball from side to side. It's been noticably good with Gordon in their, too. Tell Gordon to try to get others involved first, look for his shot second or when it's there... and see what happens.

Eminjay7 · Post #13 » by **Eminjay7** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:27 pm

I think Gordon reminds me of Iverson at some aspects of his game. i think both are no PG, but play at that position at times, as well as their scoring ability.
But over a long stretch I also dont want him as the teams PG, because his biggest skill isnt passing, it's scoring.

Neusch23 · Post #14 » by **Neusch23** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:47 pm

Well, then you're going to be disapointed because Gordon IS more of a point guard than any other position.

He plays more than half of every game at point any ways.

He is a point 100% of the time on D, and basically controls our offense when he is in.

I would argue that he is in the point guard slot of our team 85% of the time, if not more.

Remember, anyone can play in a point guard slot on O, the important thing is to be able to match up on D.

This is why it was so huge to be able to put out a huge line up for the 90's bulls with Ron Harper getting most of his time in at the 1. And he was as big as Jordan.

We don't have Chris Paul or nash on this team. We have a ton of combo guards.

Kirk hardly plays any point, very little. Duhon is our only realy point guard on the team.

Addicted123 · Post #15 » by **Addicted123** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:02 pm

robg wrote:Here are Ben Gordon's TO averages:

Year TO
04-05 2.27
05-06 2.25
06-07 3.04
07-08 2.34

man it seems as though he has been TO over more recently but he has been right on this avg. Maybe he has been a bad passer out of double teams before but i just haven't notice until now, because this guy is horrible passing out of double teams. There is no way this guy can become a point guard. i was against him being benched at first but i'm content with it now. i hope boylen starts thabo (i can't believe i just said that):lol: & kirk when kirk is healthy again. [/list]

I think if Gordon could play the point with Kobe, it would be an incredibly deadly combo. It almost wouldn't matter what was in the frontcourt.

DanTown8587 · Post #16 » by **DanTown8587** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:09 pm

Addicted123 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I think if Gordon could play the point with Kobe, it would be an incredibly deadly combo. It almost wouldn't matter what was in the frontcourt.

Can we focus on current players on the Bulls roster. A lot of players would look good with Kobe. A Lot.

Here is my take on the Gordon/PG issue, is that he rarely creates scoring chances for himself or teammates. He takes (and makes) a lot of very difficult shots that I believe defensives are o.k giving him. That is what makes a PG, he can set up his teammates so well, that eventually he takes open shots because of his passing. Thats only held for a Paul-Nash-Davis etc group of guys, so that makes Gordon not any type of PG, but a scorer.

Beryl 96 · Post #17 » by **Beryl 96** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:24 pm

Can BG play point? yes

Can he do it efficiently? debatable

Can he learn to be more efficient at it? despite being in the league 4 years, yes

Will he be a true pass first PG? no, and I wouldn't want him to be, if we got a star to play with him, he'd be pass first, to the star.

djalterego · Post #18 » by **djalterego** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:39 pm

He also has no handle. I don't understand why he doesn't try to get more fouls with a pump fake. Last night he got one on the Warriors when they were playing overaggressive D but you never see him do that.

girlygirl · Post #19 » by **girlygirl** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:20 am

Neusch23 wrote:Well, then you're going to be disapointed because Gordon IS more of a point guard than any other position.

He plays more than half of every game at point any ways.

He is a point 100% of the time on D, and basically controls our offense when he is in.

I would argue that he is in the point guard slot of our team 85% of the time, if not more.

Remember, anyone can play in a point guard slot on O, the important thing is to be able to match up on D.

This is why it was so huge to be able to put out a huge line up for the 90's bulls with Ron Harper getting most of his time in at the 1. And he was as big as Jordan.

We don't have Chris Paul or nash on this team. We have a ton of combo guards.

Kirk hardly plays any point, very little. Duhon is our only realy point guard on the team.

Not true -- when Hinrich and Gordon are on floor together, Kirk is usually the PG...when BG and Du are out there together, Chris is usually the PG

Ben has done more of the ballhandling/setting up the offense is recent games, but he's still plays far more SG than PG

BullSoxChicago'sFinest · Post #20 » by **BullSoxChicago'sFinest** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:31 am

I agree with some of the passing, I don't like how he sets up big men

But also, I think it hurts his scoring. I like him much better as a catch and shoot type of player. Plus him controlling/having the ball (and that he's playing for a contract) makes me uneasy, there are times the selfishness shows. I can't stand when they do the pick and roll, he gets double teamed, and instead of feeding the open rolling big man (even if it's Gray) he takes the shot doubleteamed anyways