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To trade or not to trade Joe Smith

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Post#61 » by Ben » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:15 am

Hilton Armstrong absolutely is not a good enough return for Joe Smith. Armstrong is doing nothing for NO right now, and Smith would do a great deal for them.

I wanted Armstrong at draft time 2006. I thought that he could be a pretty good pro. Thus far he's been making me look stupid-- and remember, he plays on the same team as Chris Paul.

I would do Smith to LA for a package that included Javaris Crittenton. I doubt that LA would do it, but for gosh sakes-- they already have Jordan Farmar as the PG of the future. How long can they hope to hold on to TWO young PGs in addition to a vet or two at the same position?

Actually, Javaris has done just about nothing thus far to suggest that he's going to be a playmaking PG. But ya gotta take a chance here or there, and Smith isn't going to take us to the next level while Javaris could conceivably do so if he matures. 6'5" PG who could conceivably defend SGs while Benny G guards the 1's.
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Post#62 » by DanTown8587 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:15 am

If this team was at even .500, then of course keep Joe Smith and make some sort of mini-run. But besides Detroit, we have played terrible against good teams this year, and if Orlando would deal us Bogans-Garrity-Arroyo-#1 for Gordon-Smith I see no problem with that deal. A guy like Bogans could come in this offseason and most likely replace Gordon anyway, so why not see what he can do?? This deal also opens up minutes for Thabo, Tyrus and Joakim and we can see if these guys are building block or trading block material.
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Post#63 » by step » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:06 pm

A guy like Bogans could come in this offseason and most likely replace Gordon anyway, so why not see what he can do??
If he could most likely replace Gordon, why on earth would Orlando want to part with him...

Orlando would deal us Bogans-Garrity-Arroyo-#1 for Gordon-Smith I see no problem with that deal.
And I don't see a problem with a Ben Wallace for Tim Duncan trade either.
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Post#64 » by Hoops23 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:18 pm

I doubt the Bulls will trade Joe Smith because they are only a few games out in the playoff race. If Joe Smith is going to be traded, IMO its for an expiring contract to give more emphasis & playing minutes for Ty Thomas & Noah, likewise to stay below the lux tax.
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Post#65 » by NLK » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:23 pm

I say move Joe Smith. Allow our only "all-star" worthy candidate to get a ring! Plus, at 17-26, I'm looking for our Bulls to get a high draft pick. We need to add a guy with a serious upside, and by moving Joe Smith, a consistent scorer, we can get that higher pick.
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Post#66 » by PowerBull » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:27 pm

moving noc + joe smith for expiring and a pick between 15-22 would help us in the long run. This draft is very deep and alot of good players will fall even to the 20ish range.
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Post#67 » by ATRAIN53 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:17 pm

dougthonus wrote:I think you are grossly overestimating his likely outcome if you feel he's a franchise player. Sure it's possible, but guys who are likely to become franchise players don't slip to pick #19 on draft night. There's a lot more risk than you are adding into your equation IMO.


only time will tell and this thread really isn't 'is Crittenton a franchise pick?'

but i think so and see him developing into a big-time player for LA and better than Farmar when all is said and done. he's bigger and has true blow by defender ability.

he slipped because he is a project and had a bad tourney. but if he stayed at GT this year i have no doubt he'd be a top lottery pick this year and the word franchise would be tossed around.

had the Bulls picked JC at #9 i'd have been happy, knowing full well he would not play much this season but lusting about his size and (here comes that famous word again) potential.
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Re: To trade or not to trade Joe Smith 

Post#68 » by AirP. » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:34 pm

Bulls69 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Air, I had a heated argument with my Lakers buddy who wanted to trade Andrew for Kidd last year you never give up a young player for vet who has alot on miles him. The Lakers will not give Crittenton for Joe if the wanted to do the deal Pax's would jump all over this deal.


You never do? It depends on the situation. Crittenton is a late 1st round pick that's unproven AND the Lakers already have a nice young guard in Farmar.

Bynum for Kidd... if they see Bynum as a franchise Center you don't do that trade and that's what the Lakers management thought, I have no problem with that.

Now let's look at this situation with Critt. You're LA, you have FARMAR who is a good young guard already infront of Crittenton(this is key).

Either you do what you can to win a championship with Kobe WITHOUT giving up key players to a the team in the future or you can just waste another season with Kobe.

It's not always asset = asset, sometimes the situation drives what you do. If I were 1 or 2 pieces away from stepping back and saying, wow, we really have a shot at winning it all.. and a late round 1st rounder is stopping you from doing that... you're nuts for not making the trade.

You're saying Crittenton is so valuable, you're willing to waste 2 seasons with Kobe for him? And that's what you might do by not strengthening this roster for a title push this year. How often do you think a team has a good chance to get to the finals? It doesn't happen that often... and even less often in the west if you're not the Spurs.
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Post#69 » by Cliff Levingston » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:41 pm

dougthonus wrote:I would also do Cliff's trade. I wonder if losing Brown is an issue with them because it hurts what they are trying to adjust for (more big man depth).

I'm not sure that given their roster that they want to add Brown for Noc/Duhon. It'd be an upgrade in talent, but a big downgrade in size which is one thing they could really use.

Nocioni seems entirely redundant on their roster as well.

If they want to add Duhon though (to help replace guard depth) you could add Duhon and Ariza to the deal and it still works. Ariza seems like a better prospect, but it may be tempting due to the fact that he's out for the next 7 weeks or so with a broken foot, and Duhon could help them in the mean time.

However, I think the deal makes more sense without the Duhon / Ariza swap as they don't really need someone like Duhon on the team IMO.

Cliff Levingston is picking up what you're putting down Doug.

Maybe right now they're devoid of size, but once Bynum comes back, the size issue becomes much less. But if they're concerned about size, Cliff Levingston could care less about Chris Mihm. Take him out, replace Duhon with Griffin or Khryapa and the deal works (probably Khryapa for his expiring, but it could be the Lakers' choice). We don't even need a first round pick from them either if that's a deal breaker.

Bulls trade:
- Andres Nocioni
- Joe Smith
- Viktor Khryapa
Lakers trade:
- Kwame Brown
- Javaris Crittenton
- Trevor Ariza

If the Lakers indeed do like Nocioni as much as was reported ealrly in the season then ICLO, this deal is tough to pass up. They get arguably the 2 best players in the deal (Nocioni and Smith) for two young guys who are 2nd and 3rd stringers at the moment and expiring contract who they probably won't re-sign anyway.

For a team that's got a legit shot at coming out of the West, that's a nice deal even if Smith is aging. On the Lakers, Joe won't be playing any more than 20 minutes anyway, and we all know how productive he can be in those 20 minutes. Noc can swing the 3 and 4 for them, playing the 4 alongside Bynum to spread the floor at times.

Cliff Levingston included Ariza because once they get Noc (in addition to Walton and Radmanovic), Ariza could be pretty marginalized.

The Lakers looks really good after this:

1. Fisher, Farmar
2. Bryant, Vujacic, Karl
3. Nocioni, Walton, Khryapa
4. Odom, Smith, Radmanovic
5. Bynum, Turiaf, Mihm

Of course, we pick up the two young player we want and the expiring in Kwame. Crittenton makes Duhon more than expendable and Ariza steps in as an athletic slasher to play back up Deng at the 3. Lastly, we clear a lot of PT for Tyrus, Noah and Gray with the absence of Noc and Smith:

1. Hinrich, Gordon, Crittenton
2. Sefolosha, Gordon
3. Deng, Ariza, Griffin
4. Thomas, Noah, Brown
5. Wallace, Noah, Gray, Brown
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Post#70 » by AirP. » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:44 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Well, they signed Vince Carter this offseason so they're locked up him for many years, they have RJ already and have Kidd.


They have been rumored to be trying to move both Kidd and Carter and the team just isn't good and is way more than a "Joe Smith" away from doing anything.


I know this but if you can't get rid of Carter, then you don't move Kidd.

This team is closer then you think, the only problem is that they don't have the bigs to go with them. I think a guy like Smith makes them much better. I think a lot of teams are kicking themselves for not perusing Smith more then they did.

If you can't move Carter, you don't move Kidd without almost killing your franchise, unless you get a very good PG in return. And if Kidds asking to be moved to a contender, it makes you wonder what contender is willing to do a huge shakeup to bring Kidd in, in mid season. It would be a risky move that a GM would never hear the end of it if he gave up a very good PROVEN young player.
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Re: To trade or not to trade Joe Smith 

Post#71 » by Bulls69 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:49 pm

AirP. wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



You never do? It depends on the situation. Crittenton is a late 1st round pick that's unproven AND the Lakers already have a nice young guard in Farmar.

Bynum for Kidd... if they see Bynum as a franchise Center you don't do that trade and that's what the Lakers management thought, I have no problem with that.

Now let's look at this situation with Critt. You're LA, you have FARMAR who is a good young guard already infront of Crittenton(this is key).

Either you do what you can to win a championship with Kobe WITHOUT giving up key players to a the team in the future or you can just waste another season with Kobe.

It's not always asset = asset, sometimes the situation drives what you do. If I were 1 or 2 pieces away from stepping back and saying, wow, we really have a shot at winning it all.. and a late round 1st rounder is stopping you from doing that... you're nuts for not making the trade.

You're saying Crittenton is so valuable, you're willing to waste a season with Kobe for him? And that's what you might do by not strengthening this roster for a title push this year. How often do you think a team has a good chance to get to the finals? It doesn't happen that often... and even less often in the west if you're not the Spurs.


Air, you make good point but Joe Smith does not put the Lakers over the top so why give up a young kid for a Joe the plan with Crittenton is to have him replace D. Fisher who is getting up in age.
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Re: To trade or not to trade Joe Smith 

Post#72 » by AirP. » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:05 pm

Bulls69 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Air, you make good point but Joe Smith does not put the Lakers over the top so why give up a young kid for a Joe the plan with Crittenton is to have him replace D. Fisher who is getting up in age.


How much deadlier does LA get by adding J.Smith at PF? I think you underestimate his possible impact with that team. Plus you might add 1 more piece with Smith if that's not good enough.

Consider this... they have Kwame Brown playing Center for them, the guy is getting booed by his own fans with his team being one of the top teams in the west. If they had Smith they may not lose that much ground with Bynum out of the lineup. And with J.Smith, he's a good shooting PF/C so you could leave Bynum under the basket while Smith goes around getting easy 10-15 foot jumpers. Adding Smith gives LA a 4th legit scorer to go with Kobe, Bynum and Odom.

Not only do you strengthen the team, but you make Kobe happier and less likely to opt out in 2 years by doing what the organization needs to do to give Kobe a better shot at a championship.
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Post#73 » by dougthonus » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:45 pm

Maybe right now they're devoid of size, but once Bynum comes back, the size issue becomes much less. But if they're concerned about size, Cliff Levingston could care less about Chris Mihm. Take him out, replace Duhon with Griffin or Khryapa and the deal works (probably Khryapa for his expiring, but it could be the Lakers' choice). We don't even need a first round pick from them either if that's a deal breaker.


Mihm is injured, and he's not reliable. I didn't put Mihm in there because I wanted him but because I considered him the most viable salary filler that the Lakers wouldn't mind losing.

Bulls trade:
- Andres Nocioni
- Joe Smith
- Viktor Khryapa
Lakers trade:
- Kwame Brown
- Javaris Crittenton
- Trevor Ariza


I'm still not sure they'd want to give up Brown given their current big man rotation, but I would do this trade much like your previous one.
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Post#74 » by dougthonus » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:48 pm

This team is closer then you think, the only problem is that they don't have the bigs to go with them. I think a guy like Smith makes them much better. I think a lot of teams are kicking themselves for not perusing Smith more then they did.


I think they are WAY farther away than you give them credit for. This team has basically the same record as us, and they don't even have any youth to fall back on.

If you can't move Carter, you don't move Kidd without almost killing your franchise, unless you get a very good PG in return. And if Kidds asking to be moved to a contender, it makes you wonder what contender is willing to do a huge shakeup to bring Kidd in, in mid season. It would be a risky move that a GM would never hear the end of it if he gave up a very good PROVEN young player.


I disagree. This team has no chance of going anywhere until they bring in entirely new talent. I'd get rid of either Carter or Kidd if I were the Nets and could get anything back, and it would take very little for me in what I'd get in return to worry about it. This team needs to start over completely. The only guy who is worth keeping for the next run is Richard Jefferson and even then, only as a peripheral player in it. You could of course keep the young guys you have as well, but none of them are good enough to worry about one way or the other.
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