Rose, Paul, Deron

odb · Post #1 » by **odb** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:07 pm

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I wanted to post Paul's and Deron's college stats from their last years in college (Paul's 2nd and Deron's 3rd) to show that Rose might not actually be so far away as people think from being a star in this league.

Rose: 14.9 pts, 4.5 reb, 4.7 assists, 1.2 stl, .4 blk, 48% shooting, 34% 3's

Paul: 15.2 pts, (can't find rebounding avg), 6.6 assists, 2.4 stl, 0 blocks, 45% shooting, 47% 3's

D. Williams: 12.5 pts, (can't find rebounding avg), 6.8 assists, <1.0 stl, .2 blk, 43% shooting, 36% 3's

Paul's stats are the best, but Rose is a year less experienced and played in a system where you're either supposed to drive or pass it behind you to the next guy trying to drive (not a very good one for gathering assists). Deron Williams played on a crazy running team - perfect for assists and shooting %, was in his 3rd year, and Rose still compares pretty well with him! Williams also averaged less than a steal per game - I see Rose as the best on-ball defender of the 3 (Paul plays vintage Larry Hughes defense - ask Tony Parker). Oh, by the way - I bet you Beasley fans wouldn't have guessed that Rose shot the best of these three guys in his last college season.

Anyway, I'm not saying Rose's stats are better than Beasley's - I'm just saying that Rose could be one of the best players in the game pretty soon. Let's say Rose turns into someone between Deron and Paul and that Beasley turns into Carmelo Anthony. Who would you rather have? Which one of those guys is getting TRADED this offseason?

What does everyone think?

Jay Mariotti · Post #2 » by **Jay Mariotti** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:19 pm

Rose, Paul, Deron traded? Are you on drugs?

With proper training Rose can be as good or better then Paul or Deron.

JockItch43 · Post #3 » by **JockItch43** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:23 pm

Jay Mariotti wrote:Rose, Paul, Deron traded? Are you on drugs?

With proper training Rose can be as good or better then Paul or Deron.

He's trying to say that what type of player might get traded this offseason, Paul\Williams (Rose), or Anthony (Beasley).

ZippinPippen · Post #4 » by **ZippinPippen** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:23 pm

He is saying Melo might be getting traded. Obviously Williams or Paul would never be traded.
I bet Rose's assist numbers jump a ton in the NBA and it is exciting to see that his freshman year stats are pretty much as good as the second or third years of the game's best young PGs.

Jay Mariotti · Post #5 » by **Jay Mariotti** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:25 pm

Denver has already gone on record, and said that Melo won't be traded.

MissileMike · Post #6 » by **MissileMike** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:41 pm

In 2005, these guys posted similar numbers to Williams and Paul, so they should be elite NBA players, right?

Chris Thomas: 14.2pts 5.0reb 6.7ast
Jeff Horner: 14.0pts 4.5reb 5.5ast
Filberto Rivera: 13.5pts 2.7reb 7.2ast

I am just saying that you can't make a statistical argument for Rose. You never really know how a player will develop. The reason Williams and Paul went in the lottery is because people saw the potential, not because of their statistics. I think the same applies to Rose.

Chi · Post #7 » by **Chi** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:43 pm

Jay Mariotti wrote:Denver has already gone on record, and said that Melo won't be traded.

That was before the Pistons said their team was up for grabs Jay...

But in responce to the post. The sky is the limit for D. Rose.

A better rebounding Mello is the limit for Beasley...

The Force. · Post #8 » by **The Force.** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:47 pm

Rose will be better than both Williams and Paul. and you can quote me on that.

hard49 · Post #9 » by **hard49** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 2:58 pm

The Force. wrote:Rose will be better than both Williams and Paul. and you can quote me on that.

Paul has had arguably the best career start by a PG in NBA history, I doubt Rose duplicates it.

The Force. · Post #10 » by **The Force.** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 3:04 pm

Paul has a better overall bball IQ and his decision making is like none other. HOWEVER, paul is a bit on the short side, isn't a great defender, can be bothered by bigger guards, and can't singlehandedly dominate a game offensively. None of these negative attributes will apply to Rose.

AirGordon · Post #11 » by **AirGordon** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 3:06 pm

The Force. wrote:Rose will be better than both Williams and Paul. and you can quote me on that.

Are you sure about that man? I think he will be just about as good as Williams but a step behind Paul. I dont know what it is but I have a really good feeling about Beasley. For some reason I can see Beasley topping out at 30 ppg and 15 rpg. I just really see that superstar potential there. Not that I dont think Rose has it too I just think its going to take longer for Rose to get there where as I feel like if given 30+ mpg next season Beasley can easily put up 20 ppg and 8 rpg.

The Force. · Post #12 » by **The Force.** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 3:18 pm

AirGordon wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Are you sure about that man? I think he will be just about as good as Williams but a step behind Paul. I dont know what it is but I have a really good feeling about Beasley. For some reason I can see Beasley topping out at 30 ppg and 15 rpg. I just really see that superstar potential there. Not that I dont think Rose has it too I just think its going to take longer for Rose to get there where as I feel like if given 30+ mpg next season Beasley can easily put up 20 ppg and 8 rpg.

Can't be "sure" about anything at this point, it's just a bold guess really, but I'd be willing to put money behind it.

Beasley will be great no doubt, but your criteria for wanting him shouldn't be based on the time it will take him to be productive. the PG position is the hardest position to learn/play so of course it will take Rose a bit longer. The main reason I like Rose over beasley is I feel Rose has that coveted "killer instinct" that is only associated with a select few players (we all who they are). I see Beasley possibly getting flustered in big games where-as Rose has ice flowing through his veins. Players like Rose are rare.

odb · Post #13 » by **odb** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 3:37 pm

MVPKirk wrote:In 2005, these guys posted similar numbers to Williams and Paul, so they should be elite NBA players, right?

Chris Thomas: 14.2pts 5.0reb 6.7ast
Jeff Horner: 14.0pts 4.5reb 5.5ast
Filberto Rivera: 13.5pts 2.7reb 7.2ast

I am just saying that you can't make a statistical argument for Rose. You never really know how a player will develop. The reason Williams and Paul went in the lottery is because people saw the potential, not because of their statistics. I think the same applies to Rose.

My logic did not flow that way (i.e., I did not say that anyone with those numbers will be as good as Paul and D. Williams). I said, or meant to say, that Rose's numbers are pretty similar to Paul's and Williams's coming out of college, and that it's plausible that he could make an impact off the bat in the NBA.

College stats are not sufficient to predict NBA success, but 2 things that bode well for Rose over these guys are his athleticism (sorry Chris Thomas), he starred on a great college team as a freshman, and that a 19 year old is likely to make a bigger jump than a 22 or 23 year old coming out of college.

madvillian · Post #14 » by **madvillian** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:12 pm

Chris Paul can't dominate a game offensively? Now I've heard it all. Chris Paul is **** amazing. He's arguably the best PG in the game and one of the top 5 players.

Post #15 » by **DASMACKDOWN** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:28 pm

I think its Rose's physical gifts which sets him apart.

I dont know why but I keep bringing up but I keep thinking Rose is like a Dwight Howard of pgs.

Howard is only 6'10 but you would think he is 7'1. But he is such a physical animal and the athletism is crazy. Thats what seperates him from a Kenrick Perkins.

From a physical prototype for a PG Derrick Rose is it. Whether he can harness it into absolute greatness is up to him.

But I will say this, if he can harness it, he will be as unstoppable a pg you can have in the league.

Bucky O'Hare · Post #16 » by **Bucky O'Hare** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:29 pm

Rose is the most overrated prospect in quite a while. He went from 6'4" to barely 6'2" in shoes and his skill level isn't that great. He's a fantastic athlete and puts out a pretty YouTube highlight reel, so that equals greatness in some people's eyes. He's somewhere between Jay Williams and Steve Francis.

girlygirl · Post #17 » by **girlygirl** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:29 pm

I am so sick and tired of posters already elevating Rose to the level of Chris Paul and Deron Williams -- or Beasley to the level of Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer.

Can we please STOP IT already? yes, they were great college players. Yes, they have high upside. Yes, they will probably (but not definitely) be very good NBA players. But, NO -- they are not on the level of these guys. Not yet. Can we please wait until they actually prove themselves in the NBA before we start anointing them? PLEASE!

A little perspective on the dangers of trying to project college PG numbers to the NBA:

Omar Cook, St. John's (as a freshman in 2000-01):

15.3 PPG 3.0 RPG 8.7 APG 5.1 TO/Gm 2.3 SPG

Omar Cook in NBA? BUST

J.J. Barea, Northeastern (career numbers)

20.3 PPG 3.9 RPG 6.4 APG 3.8 TO/Gm 1.6 SPG

J.J. Barea in NBA? 3rd string PG

Marcus Williams, UConn (as a junior in 2005-06)

12.3 PPG 3.9 RPG 8.6 APG 3.7 TO/Gm 0.9 SPG

Marcus Williams in NBA? Injury-prone back-up PG

Jared Jordan, Marist (as a senior in 2006-07)

17.2 PPG 5.9 RPG 8.7 APG 3.3 TO/Gm 1.4 SPG

Jared Jordan in NBA? Will probably never play in league

Chris Thomas, Notre Dame (career #'s)

17.1 PPG 4.1 RPG 6.5 APG 3.2 TO/Gm 1.9 SPG

Chris Thomas in NBA? Has never played in the league

Now, I will agree with you that Rose is bigger and much more athletic than these guys. HOWEVER, most, if not all, of these guys, could be considered much better PURE PGs than Rose. And they all put up similar, if not better, numbers across the board then Rose did at Memphis. And I could go on and on with lists of PGs who put up some great numbers in college. Only a small % of these guys even played in the NBA, and a miniscule number went on to become great NBA PGs. So, shouldn't all of this history make us more wary of anointing any PG -- no matter how athletic and dominant he may appear in college -- as a NBA superstar BEFORE he even plays a single minute on that level?

I could also put together a list of PFs who put together great college seasons a la Michael Beasley but failed to become anything more than bench players in the NBA. Devean George, Adonal Foyle, Mike Sweetney, Kris Humphries are some of the recent college players who had 20/10 seasons. Now, so did Antawn Jamison, Carmelo Anthony and Tim Duncan. But the Duncans of the world are heavily outnumbered by the college studs who go on to make little impact as a pro.

Chris Paul and Deron Williams >>>>> Derrick Rose. Perhaps in a year or two, Derrick Rose will = or be >>> than these guys. But right now it's incredibly unfair to Paul or Williams -- and piles way too much pressure on Rose -- to lump these three guys together.

Likewise, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, etc >>>>>>>>>>> Michael Beasley. Again, erhaps in a year or to Beasley will = or be >>> than these guys. But just like it's unfair to Paul and Williams to be lumped in with a college kid who still needs to prove himself as a pro, so is it unfair for guys like brand or Boozer to be lumped in with another college kid. And, it puts way too much pressure on Beasley to be lumped in with All-Stars before he's played one minute as a pro.

The Force. · Post #18 » by **The Force.** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:31 pm

madvillian wrote:Chris Paul can't dominate a game offensively? Now I've heard it all. Chris Paul is **** amazing. He's arguably the best PG in the game and one of the top 5 players.

Notice I said Singlehandedly dominate a game. In other words, CP can be shut down by a larger more physical defender (ie williams). CP is a monster and can dictate the entire pace/tempo of a game BUT as far as taking over scoring wise, I think he'll have a much tougher time than Rose will.

The Force. · Post #19 » by **The Force.** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:33 pm

Bucky O'Hare wrote:Rose is the most overrated prospect in quite a while. He went from 6'4" to barely 6'2" in shoes and his skill level isn't that great. He's a fantastic athlete and puts out a pretty YouTube highlight reel, so that equals greatness in some people's eyes. He's somewhere between Jay Williams and Steve Francis.

go kill yourself.

girlygirl · Post #20 » by **girlygirl** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:47 pm

The Force. wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Notice I said Singlehandedly dominate a game. In other words, CP can be shut down by a larger more physical defender (ie williams). CP is a monster and can dictate the entire pace/tempo of a game BUT as far as taking over scoring wise, I think he'll have a much tougher time than Rose will.

Uh-huh. You obviously weren't paying attention to the postseason when Chris Paul was putting up 20/10 games left and right. He AVERAGED 24.1 PPG and 11.3 APG in the playoffs (with four games of 30+ points) -- and that's despite being a lousy 3-point shooter. Not only that, he had a 6.14:1 assist-to-turnover ratio in the postseason. BETTER THAN 6:1!

In the regular season, he had 30+ points TWELVE times, including three games with 40+ points. I think that more than qualifies as being able to take over games scoring wise.

I think we can safely say that Chris Paul is a dominant NBA player. Derrick Rose? TBD...