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Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty

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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#81 » by DJhitek » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:30 pm

Sham wrote:By the way, all of you who are making comments to the extent of "Luol isn't loyal enough, let's trade him" are kind of missing a point. The fact that his employer - to whom you wish him to be staunchly loyal - is able to trade him away for no reason at all if they so choose, is a reason to cap any man's loyalty to them.

Which would you rather do; be the face and the saviour of all of basketball in the finest nation in the world, the one which gave you and your family political asylum, which gave you the health and relative wealth of you and yours, and which your family resides and finds employment (including your basketball playing siblings).......or turn all that down to be "loyal" to a team whose fans want you gone.

I'm choosing the former, and I'd support any player's decision to do the same, even if I didn't share their nationality like I do with Luol right hurr.


This is a business Sham and you know that, in fact Deng used his intentions to play with GB in his contract negotiations.

There is a level of loyalty to your country and I respect that more than most. But don't use it as an ultimatum to get more money, that's the point some people are making.

I personally can careless if Deng plays for the British, but the Bulls have every right to look at this from a business perspective and trade him if they want to protect themselves.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#82 » by Three34 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:32 pm

But don't use it as an ultimatum to get more money, that's the point some people are making.


They didn't have to give him the money just because he said he'd only negotiate up until a certain point. Deng didn't guilt the Bulls into overpaying him.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#83 » by DuckIII » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:32 pm

Doug, has GB's success last summer guaranteed them a spot in the 2012 Olympics? I know it was significant, but I've been a little confused as to whether or not they've cemented a spot. Originally, I thought they had. But since then I've read things suggesting that they hadn't.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#84 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:34 pm

Sham wrote:
But don't use it as an ultimatum to get more money, that's the point some people are making.


They didn't have to give him the money just because he said he'd only negotiate up until a certain point. Deng didn't guilt the Bulls into overpaying him.


RIGHT - the Bulls didnt have to give in to his demands. They could have made him take the QO - and then concentrate on Gordon's contract.

Bottom line was that Bulls did consider Deng very valuable & wanted to pay him.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#85 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:36 pm

DuckIII wrote:Doug, has GB's success last summer guaranteed them a spot in the 2012 Olympics? I know it was significant, but I've been a little confused as to whether or not they've cemented a spot. Originally, I thought they had. But since then I've read things suggesting that they hadn't.


Sham or suckfish must answer this.

My impression was that qualifying for this stage of EuroBasket did cement a 2012 spot for them - but I am not certain
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#86 » by JOHN » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:38 pm

they are the host country.Of course their spot in one of the groups is cemented.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#87 » by DJhitek » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:39 pm

Sham wrote:
But don't use it as an ultimatum to get more money, that's the point some people are making.


They didn't have to give him the money just because he said he'd only negotiate up until a certain point. Deng didn't guilt the Bulls into overpaying him.


Yes he did, he didn't like whatever offer was on the table. He used the QO and the fact he was leaving to GB as a tool to get the Bulls to cave in to his demands.

What were the Bulls supposed to do? Allow him to sign QO for LESS money with the possibility of no level of compensation if he did leave for free agency the next season?

Of course the Bulls caved in, because he forced their hand as if GB has no form of communication to continue contract negotiations?
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#88 » by dougthonus » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:40 pm

The Bulls ask a lot from Deng, and they get it. They ask for 82 games of his best basketball, the best health that he can give them, and professionalism, and that's what they get


People are afraid they aren't going to get his best health. That's the whole issue here. If playing international ball had no negative effects on players, then no one would have issue with it at all, but it does seem to have a negative effect on many players, and Deng in particular seems to have been very significantly negatively effected by it. Granted, we don't know for sure that it's related, but it seems like it is.

That's why there is a concern, and given that there aren't any high stakes for GB this summer and that there is nothing to gain for them in reality, it seems like it'd be appropriate for Deng to think of his NBA team first given how little he gave them this year.

The argument that someone else could have paid Deng is similar to me in saying someone else could have given his family political asylum. Yeah, it could have worked out that way, but if the Bulls didn't pay Deng this past summer, I guarantee you he'd have lost out on 30+ million dollars, and he wasn't going to get another offer from anyone else last summer either.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#89 » by DuckIII » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:41 pm

Sham wrote:
I have no problem with him wanting to play for the national team. I think it's understandable, but at the same time, I feel you owe a lot to your employer when they are paying you that huge an amount of money


Right, but they can trade his ass to another employer who can give him large amounts of money. Since their loyalty is limited, so should his be.



That's the beauty of this. There is no "should" in this context. There are contracts that explicitly detail the boundaries of the rights and obligations of the parties. The only thing that either the Bulls or Deng *should* due is what they are allowed to do within the four corners of the contract that they all signed. That is why contracts exist, after all.

Deng has done nothing to violate his contract and neither have the Bulls. The loyalty owed to one another is spelled out in the agreement. There simply are no moral or ethical attendments.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#90 » by DuckIII » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:43 pm

JOHN wrote:they are the host country.Of course their spot in one of the groups is cemented.


No, its not. Or it wasn't as of the start of last summer anyway. They had to qualify for selection. My question is, did they qualify?
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#91 » by DJhitek » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:45 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:
Sham wrote:
But don't use it as an ultimatum to get more money, that's the point some people are making.


They didn't have to give him the money just because he said he'd only negotiate up until a certain point. Deng didn't guilt the Bulls into overpaying him.


RIGHT - the Bulls didnt have to give in to his demands. They could have made him take the QO - and then concentrate on Gordon's contract.

Bottom line was that Bulls did consider Deng very valuable & wanted to pay him.


And he knew that...a fact he exploited. Good on him for doing so, but he knew what buttons to press to get what he wanted in the end.

Again, it's a business. If Deng further injures himself than he might have to answer more questions about this whole process.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#92 » by Three34 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:45 pm

Yes they did.

The European National Basketball Championships are called EuroBasket, and they take place every two years. The only British/English team to have made it ever before was England in 1981. Since we always get carnally buggered in European competition due to how staggeringly bad our standard of basketball has always been, the respective nations decided to pool together and enter as Great Britain from 2005 onwards, thus allowing Robert Archibald and Andy Betts to pair up and elicit stardom.

To qualify for EuroBasket championships, teams have to be in Eurobasket Division A (they split the teams into tiered divisions, because there's too many of them otherwise). You also have to be in Eurobasket Division A to get into the Olympics, and since we now are (and are also the hosts), we're going to be in the 2012 Oympics. (Woop!)

Back in 2005, the plucky Brits weren't in Eurobasket Division A. But Deng got us promoted, and now we are. We still then had to qualify for the Eurobasket 2009, as not everyone who is in division A is guaranteed entry. 8 teams are, but the other 17 have to battle for the other 8 places, split into four groups. However, Britain won their group, and have therefore qualified for EuroBasket 2009, only their second one ever, and the only one they have ever had a chance of doing anything in.

It is that which Deng wants to play in this September.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#93 » by DuckIII » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:48 pm

DJhitek wrote:
Yes he did, he didn't like whatever offer was on the table. He used the QO and the fact he was leaving to GB as a tool to get the Bulls to cave in to his demands.



No he didn't. You can't legall force someone to sign a contraact. He used the tools of leverage that he had available to him. That's how business works. The QO was just as much a tool for the Bulls as it was with him.

What were the Bulls supposed to do?


The alternative to what they did do. Which is not sign him for the amount they signed him for.

Allow him to sign QO for LESS money with the possibility of no level of compensation if he did leave for free agency the next season?


The fact that this is precisely what they did with Gordon evidences that Deng did not, and could not, force the Bulls to do anything. The Bulls made a decision.

Of course the Bulls caved in, because he forced their hand as if GB has no form of communication to continue contract negotiations?


The "GB Deadline" was a negotiating tool to set a date. And it wasn't arbitrary either. I supsect Deng used that date, wisely, since he knew he was running the risk of injuring himself in Europe, which could have crippled (pun intended) his value. Not only was it entirely reasonable for Deng to set that deadline, but his agent would have been an incompetent negotiator had he not done so. Then it was up the Bulls to make their own choices, which they did.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#94 » by Three34 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:49 pm

dougthonus wrote:People are afraid they aren't going to get his best health. That's the whole issue here. If playing international ball had no negative effects on players, then no one would have issue with it at all, but it does seem to have a negative effect on many players, and Deng in particular seems to have been very significantly negatively effected by it. Granted, we don't know for sure that it's related, but it seems like it is.


Indeed. But playing competitive games in September won't be the cause of any downfall, unless he falls awkwardly and pops a knee or something. But that sort of thing happens in practice anyway. I want my team's players to play in September to avoid Joakim Noah-like situations from happening. And Deng will be doing that.


That's why there is a concern, and given that there aren't any high stakes for GB this summer and that there is nothing to gain for them in reality,


See my post above. This assertion is just incorrect. They don't only play important games once in every 4 years. Just because the USA isn't in the Eurobasket, it doesn't mean that it isn't a really important competition.


The argument that someone else could have paid Deng is similar to me in saying someone else could have given his family political asylum. Yeah, it could have worked out that way, but if the Bulls didn't pay Deng this past summer, I guarantee you he'd have lost out on 30+ million dollars, and he wasn't going to get another offer from anyone else last summer either.


Again, Deng isn't liable for Reinsdorf's decision to outbid himself.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#95 » by fudgie » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:54 pm

I think that as the host country GB gets an automatic spot (like China did) and all they had to prove was that they don't suck so that the Olympic committee or FIBA or whoever is in charge of that didn't look at their team and say "These guys suck too much to be in the Olympics".

Qualifying for Eurobasket is probably enough to do that.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#96 » by Three34 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:57 pm

_snake_ wrote:I think that as the host country GB gets an automatic spot (like China did) and all they had to prove was that they don't suck so that the Olympic committee or FIBA or whoever is in charge of that didn't look at their team and say "These guys suck too much to be in the Olympics".

Qualifying for Eurobasket is probably enough to do that.



That's basically it. You get an automatic berth, unless you're so bad that you wouldn't even be competitive if you turned up. What the committee needed to see was that we were at least a Eurobasket Division A calibre-team. Having won promotion to that division, and subsequently won our Eurobasket qualification group (making us, in theory, one of Europe's 16 best teams), that's now been proven.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#97 » by dougthonus » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:02 pm

Indeed. But playing competitive games in September won't be the cause of any downfall, unless he falls awkwardly and pops a knee or something. But that sort of thing happens in practice anyway. I want my team's players to play in September to avoid Joakim Noah-like situations from happening. And Deng will be doing that.


Except that playing the extra month HAS seemed to be the downfall of players. That's the point. There does seem to be a good correlation between guys wearing down and getting hurt and playing an international schedule as well. It's also not the same as working out on his own, and it's worse. Not better. If he spent that month doing conditioning, strength training and individual drills to improve aspects of his game it would be better improve his skills, be far less likely to injure him, and make him more physically read for the season by building up strength.

Again, Deng isn't liable for Reinsdorf's decision to outbid himself.


No he's not. Deng also is not obligated to play for GB. He chooses to play for GB given what he feels he owes the country and the love he feels for them. I think many Bulls fans feel disappointed that he apparently doesn't appreciate what this team has done for them enough to make them a priority. He's certainly under no legal obligation to do so, but it's awfully disheartening as a Bulls fan to see him come off this season and the dedicate his off season to the British national team instead of to the Bulls.

If he had a great year then I wouldn't feel strongly about it. However, after an injury plagued season where his performance was poor even when healthy I don't like his focus being on something other than his obligation to the Bulls.

I understand his desire to do the British basketball thing. I don't think it makes him a bad guy, but I'm disappointed in his priorities.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#98 » by Three34 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:07 pm

Except that playing the extra month HAS seemed to be the downfall of players. That's the point.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. To use the Kirk comparison again, he played for the USA in the 2006 FIBA World Championships during the offseason, and then put up the finest season of his life BY, MILES. He didn't get injured the following season, either.

I realise that Deng's body of work over the last 18 months suggests that it hinders him a bit. But playing what might be all of three games for Britian isn't going to be the main reason if he sucks for the next 82 next season.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#99 » by dougthonus » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:09 pm

Sham wrote:
Except that playing the extra month HAS seemed to be the downfall of players. That's the point.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. To use the Kirk comparison again, he played for the USA in the 2006 FIBA World Championships during the offseason, and then put up the finest season of his life BY, MILES. He didn't get injured the following season, either.

I realise that Deng's body of work over the last 18 months suggests that it hinders him a bit. But playing what might be all of three games for Britian isn't going to be the main reason if he sucks for the next 82 next season.


Probably not, I think somewhere in here I said I didn't think it was that big a deal. I'd prefer him not, but I don't think it's likely to make a huge impact as long as he's healthy at the start.
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Re: Luol Deng ready to defy trainer by fulfilling national duty 

Post#100 » by DJhitek » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:11 pm

No he didn't. You can't legall force someone to sign a contraact. He used the tools of leverage that he had available to him. That's how business works. The QO was just as much a tool for the Bulls as it was with him.


Your right, to rephrase. He used those tools to force one of only two decisions. "Sign the qualifying offer and bolt next season" or "Sign him to his contract demands"

The alternative to what they did do. Which is not sign him for the amount they signed him for.


Of course, than management is viewed sub-standardly because they allowed an asset to walk without anything in return



The fact that this is precisely what they did with Gordon evidences that Deng did not, and could not, force the Bulls to do anything. The Bulls made a decision.


Yup, nothing more to add in that regard

The "GB Deadline" was a negotiating tool to set a date. And it wasn't arbitrary either. I supsect Deng used that date, wisely, since he knew he was running the risk of injuring himself in Europe, which could have crippled (pun intended) his value. Not only was it entirely reasonable for Deng to set that deadline, but his agent would have been an incompetent negotiator had he not done so. Then it was up the Bulls to make their own choices, which they did.


Agreed, I think I already stated it's a business early and alluded to that fact in a post early to your response.

But perception is reality in this case. If Deng further injures himself than he has made his bed just like the Bulls did. He will face the scrutiny of the fan base, rightfully so IMO.

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