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2017-18 OFF-SEASON

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Re: On the Same Wavelength 

Post#101 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 1:29 am

Neddy wrote:hey there CF55! sup!


and oh, you came in at the most emotionally charged week of this forum ever, and due to the heat of the conversations it went without much ceremony, but WELCOME! we haven't had a new poster for some time, or like, ever. hope you continue to frequent this place as often as we do. I am sure you have noticed by now, the regulars here are a handful at this point, but Kilroy does a killer job at modding, and Ranma and Quake have many interesting POVs and not shy about debating them. we have a few more guys that stop by time to time for game thread and stuff, but for now, as for daily posters, it is a fearsome foursome or a power trio if you don't count the mod.

and what's up with your name dude? CF 55? your initials and were you born in 55? that would make you nearly as old as my father in law and a half a dozen-ish younger than my old man and a full 20 years ahead of myself. it's gotta have a reason or meaning. do you care to share?


CF55 is short for my old gamer tag and I just liked the number 55 when I made it. And I came over to talk Dodgers baseball with new people lot of different views make things more interesting.
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Morrow's Projected Contract 

Post#102 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 1:41 am

Neddy wrote:Brandon Morrow to the Rockies for 3 years, 28 million?


Are you referring to MLBTradeRumors.com's projected numbers because they have him listed at 3 years, $24 million,
which is higher than my preference for $1 million less per season? If not, is Bleacher Report the one projecting those numbers? That is in territory that is uncomfortable for me, but I guess that's nothing new in free agency.
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Positive for Verdugo 

Post#103 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 2:02 am

CF55 wrote:As for the OF next season I say Puig is only one with a job I think we should play Taylor at his more natural 2B position since we have a surplus in the OF. Guys don't like him but I really think Verdugo will win a job out of ST if hes not dealt he provides what this team didn't have. Verdugo doesn't go up there trying to hit a homer in every situation he wants to get base hits and rarely strikeouts.

I just think Verdugos profile is what the team was missing we have big bats but when we got runners on base in game 7 everyone wanted to hit a homer none went for the single to chip away at the lead. Verdugo is the type of guy who could keep rallys going instead of striking out swinging at everything. I still don't think Verdugo got a fair crack I know he showed up late to a game but for all of September when the team was playing Granderson instead was sickening Granderson was sucking the whole month and we never really got to see what Verdugo brought to the table.


It's no secret that I'm not Verdugo's biggest fan, but I've acknowledged that he holds value whether as a prospect or trade asset; I just think he offers more as the latter than the former.

I've actually had similar thoughts about Verdugo during the World Series as our bats were playing hero ball instead of the patient aggressiveness that was the success to our season. While I'm concerned with his questionable behavior, I'm more down on him not offering either speed or power to go along with this contact bat. While his arm is attractive for a corner outfielder, his lack of footspeed really makes him unappealing for CF.

I might be open to him in LF but I like penciling Pederson there right now. We also have Toles to serve as the 4th outfielder. Verdugo should be in the mix, especially with Ethier's anticipated departure, but if he plays anywhere outside of LF, that would make me even less enthusiastic about him than I currently am.

I'm also with you in thinking Taylor is better served at 2B but he's our best CF option until Kendall develops (or we trade for Trout :clown:). Forsythe and **** would provide a good platoon option, especially with **** also taking reps in LF. We should see a better version of Forsythe in 2018 assuming health is not an issue, but he'll likely post notably worse numbers against right-handed pitching.

I'm also onboard with Utley retiring and joining the coaching staff at this point. He's now reached a point where his bat and glove is unreliable in any meaningful manner. That would hopefully open up a spot to keep Culberson on the MLB roster for the entirety of the season.
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Re: Positive for Verdugo 

Post#104 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 2:43 am

Ranma wrote:
CF55 wrote:As for the OF next season I say Puig is only one with a job I think we should play Taylor at his more natural 2B position since we have a surplus in the OF. Guys don't like him but I really think Verdugo will win a job out of ST if hes not dealt he provides what this team didn't have. Verdugo doesn't go up there trying to hit a homer in every situation he wants to get base hits and rarely strikeouts.

I just think Verdugos profile is what the team was missing we have big bats but when we got runners on base in game 7 everyone wanted to hit a homer none went for the single to chip away at the lead. Verdugo is the type of guy who could keep rallys going instead of striking out swinging at everything. I still don't think Verdugo got a fair crack I know he showed up late to a game but for all of September when the team was playing Granderson instead was sickening Granderson was sucking the whole month and we never really got to see what Verdugo brought to the table.


It's no secret that I'm not Verdugo's biggest fan, but I've acknowledged that he holds value whether as a prospect or trade asset; I just think he offers more as the latter than the former.

I've actually had similar thoughts about Verdugo during the World Series as our bats were playing hero ball instead of the patient aggressiveness that was the success to our season. While I'm concerned with his questionable behavior, I'm more down on him not offering either speed or power to go along with this contact bat. While his arm is attractive for a corner outfielder, his lack of footspeed really makes him unappealing for CF.

I might be open to him in LF but I like penciling Pederson there right now. We also have Toles to serve as the 4th outfielder. Verdugo should be in the mix, especially with Ethier's anticipated departure, but if he plays anywhere outside of LF, that would make me even less enthusiastic about him than I currently am.

I'm also with you in thinking Taylor is better served at 2B but he's our best CF option until Kendall develops (or we trade for Trout :clown:). Forsythe and **** would provide a good platoon option, especially with **** also taking reps in LF. We should see a better version of Forsythe in 2018 assuming health is not an issue, but he'll likely post notably worse numbers against right-handed pitching.

I'm also onboard with Utley retiring and joining the coaching staff at this point. He's now reached a point where his bat and glove is now unreliable in any meaningful manner. That would hopefully open up a spot to keep Culberson on the MLB roster for the entirety of the season.


Interesting I don't think Verdugo is as slow as people let on he just doesn't have elite speed. But he does track the ball extremely well and takes the best path he is a very good defender in CF. It's not always about speed some guys with killer speed end up sucking because they rely on that instead of sound fundamentals. I actually view Verdugo as a CF and if/when Puig is gone he moves to RF and we don't lose a beat because no one gonna test Verdugos cannon in CF RF or LF. LF would be the most interesting as I could see him throwing out people trying to get doubles on the regular. I also believe teams will try to buy low on Verdugo cause he struggled in September and had the issue with being late.

As for Kendall I prefer Verdugo because he doesn't play hero ball. I like Kendall as a prospect but his bat has holes in it. Verdugo has all the fundamentals and patience that can't be taught where Kendall is all raw talent with problems at the plate. My long term vision for the OF was TBD - Kendall - Verdugo. No one will ever call Verdugo an exciting player but he projects as a throw back that every team needs. If he projects to hit 280 to 300 with 30ish doubles 10ish Homers I'm fine with that because we have Seager Bellinger Taylor Turner Puig (Eventually Kendall) to provide the splash plays. Also despite just being drafted Verdugo is actually younger then Kendall by a few months.

As for Joc I say trade him now well the WS is fresh in other teams minds. Joc is too streaky and kills the team. I honestly think Joc fits best as a DH where he only has to focus on hitting his defense has steadily gotten worse since he has been in the majors. Some AL teams would likely take a chance on Joc I could see Jays Rays and O's potentially having interest. Joc is a fun dude to have around the clubhouse and he hit some big Homers but he's so inconsistent we should sell high.

Also on Puig I could even see us shop him around with only 2 years left under contract and the front office likely not wanting to give him a longterm extension we could try to sell high. I'm not for or against trading Puig but I just see it as a possibility.

The only offensive players I think are 100 percent coming back are Taylor Seager Turner Bellinger and Barnes. I could see us trade the others, not all of them but I think at least 1 of Puig, Pederson, Grandal, Forsythe will be traded. I don't expect a major blow up but I expect a few moves this offseason that make us scratch our heads like the Dee Gordon move or the Matt Kemp deal. We made the WS and fell just short but with some guys heading into arbitration or expiring contracts it could be an exciting offseason with some real shocking moves with the front office that tends to think outside the box.
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Re: Positive for Verdugo 

Post#105 » by Neddy » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:00 am

CF55 wrote:
Ranma wrote:
CF55 wrote:As for the OF next season I say Puig is only one with a job I think we should play Taylor at his more natural 2B position since we have a surplus in the OF. Guys don't like him but I really think Verdugo will win a job out of ST if hes not dealt he provides what this team didn't have. Verdugo doesn't go up there trying to hit a homer in every situation he wants to get base hits and rarely strikeouts.

I just think Verdugos profile is what the team was missing we have big bats but when we got runners on base in game 7 everyone wanted to hit a homer none went for the single to chip away at the lead. Verdugo is the type of guy who could keep rallys going instead of striking out swinging at everything. I still don't think Verdugo got a fair crack I know he showed up late to a game but for all of September when the team was playing Granderson instead was sickening Granderson was sucking the whole month and we never really got to see what Verdugo brought to the table.


It's no secret that I'm not Verdugo's biggest fan, but I've acknowledged that he holds value whether as a prospect or trade asset; I just think he offers more as the latter than the former.

I've actually had similar thoughts about Verdugo during the World Series as our bats were playing hero ball instead of the patient aggressiveness that was the success to our season. While I'm concerned with his questionable behavior, I'm more down on him not offering either speed or power to go along with this contact bat. While his arm is attractive for a corner outfielder, his lack of footspeed really makes him unappealing for CF.

I might be open to him in LF but I like penciling Pederson there right now. We also have Toles to serve as the 4th outfielder. Verdugo should be in the mix, especially with Ethier's anticipated departure, but if he plays anywhere outside of LF, that would make me even less enthusiastic about him than I currently am.

I'm also with you in thinking Taylor is better served at 2B but he's our best CF option until Kendall develops (or we trade for Trout :clown:). Forsythe and **** would provide a good platoon option, especially with **** also taking reps in LF. We should see a better version of Forsythe in 2018 assuming health is not an issue, but he'll likely post notably worse numbers against right-handed pitching.

I'm also onboard with Utley retiring and joining the coaching staff at this point. He's now reached a point where his bat and glove is now unreliable in any meaningful manner. That would hopefully open up a spot to keep Culberson on the MLB roster for the entirety of the season.


Interesting I don't think Verdugo is as slow as people let on he just doesn't have elite speed. But he does track the ball extremely well and takes the best path he is a very good defender in CF. It's not always about speed some guys with killer speed end up sucking because they rely on that instead of sound fundamentals. I actually view Verdugo as a CF and if/when Puig is gone he moves to RF and we don't lose a beat because no one gonna test Verdugos cannon in CF RF or LF. LF would be the most interesting as I could see him throwing out people trying to get doubles on the regular. I also believe teams will try to buy low on Verdugo cause he struggled in September and had the issue with being late.

As for Kendall I prefer Verdugo because he doesn't play hero ball. I like Kendall as a prospect but his bat has holes in it. Verdugo has all the fundamentals and patience that can't be taught where Kendall is all raw talent with problems at the plate. My long term vision for the OF was TBD - Kendall - Verdugo. No one will ever call Verdugo an exciting player but he projects as a throw back that every team needs. If he projects to hit 280 to 300 with 30ish doubles 10ish Homers I'm fine with that because we have Seager Bellinger Taylor Turner Puig (Eventually Kendall) to provide the splash plays. Also despite just being drafted Verdugo is actually younger then Kendall by a few months.

As for Joc I say trade him now well the WS is fresh in other teams minds. Joc is too streaky and kills the team. I honestly think Joc fits best as a DH where he only has to focus on hitting his defense has steadily gotten worse since he has been in the majors. Some AL teams would likely take a chance on Joc I could see Jays Rays and O's potentially having interest. Joc is a fun dude to have around the clubhouse and he hit some big Homers but he's so inconsistent we should sell high.

Also on Puig I could even see us shop him around with only 2 years left under contract and the front office likely not wanting to give him a longterm extension we could try to sell high. I'm not for or against trading Puig but I just see it as a possibility.

The only offensive players I think are 100 percent coming back are Taylor Seager Turner Bellinger and Barnes. I could see us trade the others, not all of them but I think at least 1 of Puig, Pederson, Grandal, Forsythe will be traded. I don't expect a major blow up but I expect a few moves this offseason that make us scratch our heads like the Dee Gordon move or the Matt Kemp deal. We made the WS and fell just short but with some guys heading into arbitration or expiring contracts it could be an exciting offseason with some real shocking moves with the front office that tends to think outside the box.


I don't think Dee Gordon or Matt kemp deal was a head scratcher to be honest. and I don't project Verdugo and Kendall to be better than what we've got including Puig. I like Alex V, and I like Kendall, but Kendall as of now, is a obp nightmare. Verdugo is a good prospect with a potential of an all star, but he has shown so far, to be without power that our current guys have. I maybe in the minority, but I am on the side of Puig. he may eventually figure it out, but even if he doesn't and stay as is, he is worth every penny we are paying him. he was the best defensive RF in NL in 2017. Toles is coming back and should give a nice competition to other OFers, but once CT3 is healthy, puig and Taylor will be a household name among the dodger fans.
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Re: Morrow's Projected Contract 

Post#106 » by Neddy » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:01 am

Ranma wrote:
Neddy wrote:Brandon Morrow to the Rockies for 3 years, 28 million?


Are you referring to MLBTradeRumors.com's projected numbers because they have him listed at 3 years, $24 million,
which is higher than my preference for $1 million less per season? If not, is Bleacher Report the one projecting those numbers? That is in territory that is uncomfortable for me, but I guess that's nothing new in free agency.


Bleacher report.

it is not the most reliable source, I know, but I was shocked to see what the going rate was for a set up man nowadays.
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Re: Positive for Verdugo 

Post#107 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:22 am

Neddy wrote:
CF55 wrote:
Ranma wrote:
It's no secret that I'm not Verdugo's biggest fan, but I've acknowledged that he holds value whether as a prospect or trade asset; I just think he offers more as the latter than the former.

I've actually had similar thoughts about Verdugo during the World Series as our bats were playing hero ball instead of the patient aggressiveness that was the success to our season. While I'm concerned with his questionable behavior, I'm more down on him not offering either speed or power to go along with this contact bat. While his arm is attractive for a corner outfielder, his lack of footspeed really makes him unappealing for CF.

I might be open to him in LF but I like penciling Pederson there right now. We also have Toles to serve as the 4th outfielder. Verdugo should be in the mix, especially with Ethier's anticipated departure, but if he plays anywhere outside of LF, that would make me even less enthusiastic about him than I currently am.

I'm also with you in thinking Taylor is better served at 2B but he's our best CF option until Kendall develops (or we trade for Trout :clown:). Forsythe and **** would provide a good platoon option, especially with **** also taking reps in LF. We should see a better version of Forsythe in 2018 assuming health is not an issue, but he'll likely post notably worse numbers against right-handed pitching.

I'm also onboard with Utley retiring and joining the coaching staff at this point. He's now reached a point where his bat and glove is now unreliable in any meaningful manner. That would hopefully open up a spot to keep Culberson on the MLB roster for the entirety of the season.


Interesting I don't think Verdugo is as slow as people let on he just doesn't have elite speed. But he does track the ball extremely well and takes the best path he is a very good defender in CF. It's not always about speed some guys with killer speed end up sucking because they rely on that instead of sound fundamentals. I actually view Verdugo as a CF and if/when Puig is gone he moves to RF and we don't lose a beat because no one gonna test Verdugos cannon in CF RF or LF. LF would be the most interesting as I could see him throwing out people trying to get doubles on the regular. I also believe teams will try to buy low on Verdugo cause he struggled in September and had the issue with being late.

As for Kendall I prefer Verdugo because he doesn't play hero ball. I like Kendall as a prospect but his bat has holes in it. Verdugo has all the fundamentals and patience that can't be taught where Kendall is all raw talent with problems at the plate. My long term vision for the OF was TBD - Kendall - Verdugo. No one will ever call Verdugo an exciting player but he projects as a throw back that every team needs. If he projects to hit 280 to 300 with 30ish doubles 10ish Homers I'm fine with that because we have Seager Bellinger Taylor Turner Puig (Eventually Kendall) to provide the splash plays. Also despite just being drafted Verdugo is actually younger then Kendall by a few months.

As for Joc I say trade him now well the WS is fresh in other teams minds. Joc is too streaky and kills the team. I honestly think Joc fits best as a DH where he only has to focus on hitting his defense has steadily gotten worse since he has been in the majors. Some AL teams would likely take a chance on Joc I could see Jays Rays and O's potentially having interest. Joc is a fun dude to have around the clubhouse and he hit some big Homers but he's so inconsistent we should sell high.

Also on Puig I could even see us shop him around with only 2 years left under contract and the front office likely not wanting to give him a longterm extension we could try to sell high. I'm not for or against trading Puig but I just see it as a possibility.

The only offensive players I think are 100 percent coming back are Taylor Seager Turner Bellinger and Barnes. I could see us trade the others, not all of them but I think at least 1 of Puig, Pederson, Grandal, Forsythe will be traded. I don't expect a major blow up but I expect a few moves this offseason that make us scratch our heads like the Dee Gordon move or the Matt Kemp deal. We made the WS and fell just short but with some guys heading into arbitration or expiring contracts it could be an exciting offseason with some real shocking moves with the front office that tends to think outside the box.


I don't think Dee Gordon or Matt kemp deal was a head scratcher to be honest. and I don't project Verdugo and Kendall to be better than what we've got including Puig. I like Alex V, and I like Kendall, but Kendall as of now, is a obp nightmare. Verdugo is a good prospect with a potential of an all star, but he has shown so far, to be without power that our current guys have. I maybe in the minority, but I am on the side of Puig. he may eventually figure it out, but even if he doesn't and stay as is, he is worth every penny we are paying him. he was the best defensive RF in NL in 2017. Toles is coming back and should give a nice competition to other OFers, but once CT3 is healthy, puig and Taylor will be a household name among the dodger fans.


The Kemp deal was expected just not to the Padres. The Dee Gordon trade came out of no where Friedman likes to sell high. I wasn't suggesting that we trade Puig but knowing his personality and the front offices tendencies I was just saying it was a possibility. Also Kendall wasn't a move for next season he's 2 to 3 years away when Puig will likely be gone.

Verdugo needs a shot because he isn't going to be going up and trying to hit Homers every time he steps up to the plate. Teams need more then just big bashers in the lineup. Also my suggestion is to move Taylor to 2B he's a solid defender in the OF but doesn't have a great arm. You have an OF with Verdugo and Puig in it you got 2 top tier OF throwing arms in the same OF. As for Toles I'm excited he might come back but he sucked to start the year they tried to turn hIm into a power hitter wasting his speed and overall high contact skills he had shown at the end of 2015.

Not everyone needs to try to hit the ball in the air to send it out of the park. And well Verdugo doesn't have HR power he has decent gap power. But the best thing about Verdugo is the lack of strikeouts. In over 400 ABs in Trip A he had 50 strikeouts. When you make contact good things can happen, when you strikeout only bad things happen. Elite defensive potential, and OBP is what we need when we already have guys like Seager Taylor Bellinger Turner to provide the home runs. To me Verdugo skillset provides the chance at better value for this team then what Joc has provided. I'm tired of guys getting on base and seeing them stranded cause everyone tries to hit a dinger instead of just taking the pitch you get and getting the runs in.
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Point-by-Point Response 

Post#108 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:25 am

CF55 wrote:Interesting I don't think Verdugo is as slow as people let on he just doesn't have elite speed. But he does track the ball extremely well and takes the best path he is a very good defender in CF. It's not always about speed some guys with killer speed end up sucking because they rely on that instead of sound fundamentals. I actually view Verdugo as a CF and if/when Puig is gone he moves to RF and we don't lose a beat because no one gonna test Verdugos cannon in CF RF or LF. LF would be the most interesting as I could see him throwing out people trying to get doubles on the regular. I also believe teams will try to buy low on Verdugo cause he struggled in September and had the issue with being late.


His scouting reports note his lack of foot speed while also mentioning how he makes up for it with good instincts in CF, but lately those reports have moved away from him being a viable option down the line in the middle of the outfield. He gets consideration in RF because of his strong arm.

It may be unfair to judge him on a small sample size, especially as a rookie in Major League Baseball, but his defense in the outfield was sorely lacking this past season even in left field. His foot speed was even worse than I thought and his instincts led to some really bad approaches to balls hit to him, which led to extending extra base hits on multiple occasions.

I'm willing to concede that nervousness might have caused him to be initially tentative, but there was one play I recall where he dove for the ball but it was nowhere close to him. Maybe he was doing too much, but when you consider talk about how regarded his instincts were, his defensive performance, though brief, was thoroughly disappointing.

I'm not exactly writing him off but he hasn't done much to change my relatively low opinion of him. I'd like to see what he can do at his best, but Yusniel Diaz seems to have a similar profile but with more all-round tools and athleticism.

I want to also say that while it is generally difficult to significantly increase speed (not as much as jumping ability), it is possible to make improvements, but his stocky body type doesn't inspire confidence in that area either.


As for Kendall I prefer Verdugo because he doesn't play hero ball. I like Kendall as a prospect but his bat has holes in it. Verdugo has all the fundamentals and patience that can't be taught where Kendall is all raw talent with problems at the plate. My long term vision for the OF was TBD - Kendall - Verdugo. No one will ever call Verdugo an exciting player but he projects as a throw back that every team needs. If he projects to hit 280 to 300 with 30ish doubles 10ish Homers I'm fine with that because we have Seager Bellinger Taylor Turner Puig (Eventually Kendall) to provide the splash plays. Also despite just being drafted Verdugo is actually younger then Kendall by a few months.


You're right that Kendall is certainly a project at this point, especially given that he was supposed to be more polished as a former college player, but he has all the tools including power, speed, defense, and strong outfield arm. His batting mechanics and approach are surprisingly raw similar to Joc's was, but once he figures it out and gets the fundamentals down, he should be practically a complete package. In fact, I put Kendall and Pederson on similar development tracks last season despite the discrepancy in MLB experience. Jeren is obviously further away than Joc right now, but there's potential for things to change in a fairly short amount of time.

As for Joc I say trade him now well the WS is fresh in other teams minds. Joc is too streaky and kills the team. I honestly think Joc fits best as a DH where he only has to focus on hitting his defense has steadily gotten worse since he has been in the majors. Some AL teams would likely take a chance on Joc I could see Jays Rays and O's potentially having interest. Joc is a fun dude to have around the clubhouse and he hit some big Homers but he's so inconsistent we should sell high.


I'm certainly open to trading Pederson at high point of his value, but I think we should see if he can maintain and continue his improvement with the bat to push it higher. I don't see a team really convinced enough in his abilities to pay the sort of price it would be worth to deal him right now as I still think the return for him would be fairly insignificant.

It's encouraging to see Joc do well again, but as we are well aware, he has a tendency to revert back to bad habits and tinkering with his mechanics. He's done it so often now that it's practically underlined in his scouting reports.


Also on Puig I could even see us shop him around with only 2 years left under contract and the front office likely not wanting to give him a longterm extension we could try to sell high. I'm not for or against trading Puig but I just see it as a possibility.


I also agree with you that I don't think that front office is sold on Puig still despite the excitement he generates from fans and the improved discipline and great defense he's put on display. It seems like the brass is always waiting for the other shoe to drop and, admittedly, I find myself sharing that same sentiment.

Yasiel presents such an ideal profile in RF that it sucks that I have to say this but I do anticipate that he will eventually be dealt. I just don't think Friedman & Co. will ever fully trust him, which is why I've targeted Bryce Harper for next winter in free agency.
Giancarlo Stanton also gets consideration to a lesser extent but the latest rumors has the Cardinals very interested in him as long as the Marlins eat a significant portion of his remaining contract commitment.


The only offensive players I think are 100 percent coming back are Taylor Seager Turner Bellinger and Barnes. I could see us trade the others, not all of them but I think at least 1 of Puig, Pederson, Grandal, Forsythe will be traded. I don't expect a major blow up but I expect a few moves this offseason that make us scratch our heads like the Dee Gordon move or the Matt Kemp deal. We made the WS and fell just short but with some guys heading into arbitration or expiring contracts it could be an exciting offseason with some real shocking moves with the front office that tends to think outside the box.


You're right in that I wouldn't put it past our think tank to come up with another out-of-the-box blockbuster, but I think the priority will be for starting pitching since we need a co-ace and the free agent market is lacking attractive options. Chris Archer makes a lot of sense since he is a known favorite of (and former find for) Friedman. The Dodgers have been linked to him whenever his name pops up in trade speculation and it may just be a matter of the front office being more inclined to pay the hefty asking price from Tampa Bay. His affordable contract also helps with our aims to lower salary commitment for a sustained period in the immediate future while getting MLB production.
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Taylor's Arm and Verdugo's Time 

Post#109 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:38 am

CF55 wrote:Verdugo needs a shot because he isn't going to be going up and trying to hit Homers every time he steps up to the plate. Teams need more then just big bashers in the lineup. Also my suggestion is to move Taylor to 2B he's a solid defender in the OF but doesn't have a great arm.


Actually, Taylor is considered to have one of the strongest outfield arms on the team. Surprisingly, **** is noted in the Dodgers' telecast as having a stronger arm than Yasiel and Taylor is supposedly right up there with him them. Now I've seen highlights of Taylor throwing as a Mariners SS and I was impressed with his arm, but I was certainly surprised to hear his comparison with the others on the Dodgers.

Also, while I think Taylor does flash a cannon at times, his accuracy and consistency has been lacking at other times. I've seen him gun people out at the plate from CF but I've also seen him throw it weakly off-line. It may just be a matter of him continuing to adjust to his new position, but like I said before, I do like him better at 2B if all things were equal. However, right now he's our best option in CF.

I also concur that Verdugo needs a shot with the big-league club since he's not really going to improve much more in AAA and, outside of regular playing time, he'd get more out of being on a MLB roster. However, I suspect he'll be included in the blockbuster deal that may be happening this off-season.
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Re: 2017-18 OFF-SEASON 

Post#110 » by Quake Griffin » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:39 am

Btw, I respect Brian Sabean from his work as a Yankee to building the Barry Bonds BALCO team to those 3 rings he won.

I have no idea what happened up there with his new understudy GM or whatever but they have fallen off a cliff and approached their roster way different than their championship years. Trades and signings seemingly to carry Bum n Posey through their primes and they just aren’t working.

Dave Righetti leaving is going to hurt them as well.


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Re: Taylor's Arm and Verdugo's Time 

Post#111 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:47 am

Ranma wrote:
CF55 wrote:Verdugo needs a shot because he isn't going to be going up and trying to hit Homers every time he steps up to the plate. Teams need more then just big bashers in the lineup. Also my suggestion is to move Taylor to 2B he's a solid defender in the OF but doesn't have a great arm.


Actually, Taylor is considered to have one of the strongest outfield arms on the team. Surprisingly, **** is noted in the Dodgers' telecast as having a stronger arm than Yasiel and Taylor is supposedly right up there with him. Now I've seen highlights of Taylor throwing as Mariners SS and I was impressed with his arm, but I was certainly surprised to hear his comparison with the others on the Dodgers.

Also, while I think Taylor does flash a cannon at times, his accuracy and consistency has been lacking at times. I've seen him gun people out at the plate from CF but I've also seen him through it weakly off-line. It may just be a matter of him continuing to adjust to his new position, but like I said before, I do like him better at 2B if all things were equal. However, right now he's our best option in CF.

I also concur that Verdugo needs a shot with the big-league club since he's not really going to improve much more in AAA and, outside of regular playing time, he'd get more out of being on a MLB roster. However, I suspect he'll be included in the blockbuster deal that may be happening this off-season.


I think Verdugo is starting in LF or CF to start the season for us next season the FO refused to deal him for Gray Verlander Archer among others what could they possibly get that would entice them to move him now? Verdugo has a better throwing arms then everyone on the team that much I can guarantee. It's also very accurate. The FO has done the same formula since they took over. Joc came up for September in 14 then started in 15. Seager in 15 then started in 16. Toles in 16 started in 17. Verdugo is that next guy I think they value him highly because of his OBP skills and + Defense and +++ throwing arm is my guess. I could be wrong but this front office has usually maintained a line when they say someone is untouchable. They kept Joc, Corey, Urias, Bellinger and I believe they will keep Buehler and Verdugo like they have said. We have a ton of other guys to move in deals but when this FO singles out prospects they keep them. You could argue theyes didn't keep JDL but I think his was more due to medicals then anything else.
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Re: 2017-18 OFF-SEASON 

Post#112 » by Quake Griffin » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:50 am

LOL.

CF55, I said the same thing about Verdugo’s speed and him in general. Same wavelength.

I think he has a good shot to make the roster out of ST. Him coming late and getting chewed out by Rich Hill makes me wonder if he has an issue with his professionalism. Also makes me wonder if that was the first time he did that. There were questions about him at the draft.


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Re: Positive for Verdugo 

Post#113 » by Neddy » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:54 am

CF55 wrote:The Kemp deal was expected just not to the Padres. The Dee Gordon trade came out of no where Friedman likes to sell high. I wasn't suggesting that we trade Puig but knowing his personality and the front offices tendencies I was just saying it was a possibility. Also Kendall wasn't a move for next season he's 2 to 3 years away when Puig will likely be gone.


I wouldn't be so sure tho. Puig has been on a cheap contract and has improved on his swing while being a top notch defensive RF who prides himself at his craft. he is still only what, 26? 27? we can and we should have him roaming around the RF for the prime years of his career. does that mean we will automatically have him? not at all. it all depends what and who's contracts come and go. if we have a chance to trade for Stanton and Puig is one of the pieces, I can't say no to that regardless of how ugly that Stanton's contract look in 7 years.


CF55 wrote: needs a shot because he isn't going to be going up and trying to hit Homers every time he steps up to the plate. Teams need more then just big bashers in the lineup. Also my suggestion is to move Taylor to 2B he's a solid defender in the OF but doesn't have a great arm. You have an OF with Verdugo and Puig in it you got 2 top tier OF throwing arms in the same OF. As for Toles I'm excited he might come back but he sucked to start the year they tried to turn hIm into a power hitter wasting his speed and overall high contact skills he had shown at the end of 2015.


Taylor's got a great arm... not sure where you are getting that info. you don't come up through the top level of minors as a SS without a great arm. he came up through the Mariners organization as a SS. if that is not enough, try an eye test.



and his throw didn't even bounce once.


CF55 wrote: everyone needs to try to hit the ball in the air to send it out of the park. And well Verdugo doesn't have HR power he has decent gap power. But the best thing about Verdugo is the lack of strikeouts. In over 400 ABs in Trip A he had 50 strikeouts. When you make contact good things can happen, when you strikeout only bad things happen. Elite defensive potential, and OBP is what we need when we already have guys like Seager Taylor Bellinger Turner to provide the home runs. To me Verdugo skillset provides the chance at better value for this team then what Joc has provided. I'm tired of guys getting on base and seeing them stranded cause everyone tries to hit a dinger instead of just taking the pitch you get and getting the runs in.


yeah but you are missing a point about guys who doesn't strike out but can't get extra base hits. OPS is fair, some are power hitters who makes outs via means of K, some don't strike out but can't move runners more than a single base at a time. Verdugo is right now, a gap hitter. but I do believe he can grow into a 20 HRs a year guy. and if he can add more power, his K rate will go up too. don't get me wrong tho, I like Alex. i think he would have made the perfect setup lefty arm out of the pen but he chose to be a position player. he can still be a regular, and I like him in that role too. but you can't put a kid on a pedestal without proving his worth. i can't have him over Puig for that reason. Puig is still a .833 OPS player in the majors. Verdugo will eventually be a good MLB player, with a decent career numbers when it is all said and done. but he will never be a HOF type of a player. Puig has that potential still.
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Re: 2017-18 OFF-SEASON 

Post#114 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:12 am

Quake Griffin wrote:LOL.

CF55, I said the same thing about Verdugo’s speed and him in general. Same wavelength.

I think he has a good shot to make the roster out of ST. Him coming late and getting chewed out by Rich Hill makes me wonder if he has an issue with his professionalism. Also makes me wonder if that was the first time he did that. There were questions about him at the draft.


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I don't think it's a major problem long term hes 21 and by all accounts has been great in the minors on and off the field. It was his first time in the majors having grown up on the west coast and mainly played in the Midwest and likely wasn't accustomed to the time change. No I'm not saying that makes it okay but he's not a bad kid he made a mistake and he owned up to it. He didn't dodge questions or deny it. He flat out said my bad and went on coming to work every day for the rest of the season.

I actually like a couple of MIL P specs, Corbin Burnes in particular he's a top 100 prospect with 3 solid pitches but goes slightly under the radar cause of the 3 P specs ahead of him in the MIL system. He absolutely tore it up last season in single and double A though and has the stuff to get him to the majors next season. Brinson could be interesting I don't really want Ray he has better contact skills but overall he's similar to Kendall long term. Brinson being a right handed bat with 5 tools would be a nice fit with Seager and Bellinger long term though. Especially if the team moves on from Puig within the next 2 seasons Brinson brings a similar skill set without the antics. Although I like Puig fire not sure Friedman and company do though. But Brinson is unlikely because of his upside and current status in Milwaukee.
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Re: Positive for Verdugo 

Post#115 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:22 am

Neddy wrote:
CF55 wrote: everyone needs to try to hit the ball in the air to send it out of the park. And well Verdugo doesn't have HR power he has decent gap power. But the best thing about Verdugo is the lack of strikeouts. In over 400 ABs in Trip A he had 50 strikeouts. When you make contact good things can happen, when you strikeout only bad things happen. Elite defensive potential, and OBP is what we need when we already have guys like Seager Taylor Bellinger Turner to provide the home runs. To me Verdugo skillset provides the chance at better value for this team then what Joc has provided. I'm tired of guys getting on base and seeing them stranded cause everyone tries to hit a dinger instead of just taking the pitch you get and getting the runs in.


yeah but you are missing a point about guys who doesn't strike out but can't get extra base hits. OPS is fair, some are power hitters who makes outs via means of K, some don't strike out but can't move runners more than a single base at a time. Verdugo is right now, a gap hitter. but I do believe he can grow into a 20 HRs a year guy. and if he can add more power, his K rate will go up too. don't get me wrong tho, I like Alex. i think he would have made the perfect setup lefty arm out of the pen but he chose to be a position player. he can still be a regular, and I like him in that role too. but you can't put a kid on a pedestal without proving his worth. i can't have him over Puig for that reason. Puig is still a .833 OPS player in the majors. Verdugo will eventually be a good MLB player, with a decent career numbers when it is all said and done. but he will never be a HOF type of a player. Puig has that potential still.


Again Verdugo doesn't have HR power he has shown gap power he hits a good amount of singles and doubles and makes things happen. But knowing the Dodgers if we do keep Verdugo he will get advised to swing under the ball and they will try to turn hIm into a power hitter like they did with Toles before his injury last season. I never said he was better then Puig or had more potential I said he would have a more positive impact on the team then Joc and I still believe that. We don't need Joc hitting 7th and have him hitting 220 to 240 we need someone to get on base at the bottom of the lineup so Barnes and Taylor get chances to get hits with peogle on base instead of always hitting with the bases empty.

Taylor
Seager
Turner
Bellinger
Puig
OF or 2B
Verdugo
Barnes
P spot

Verdugo and Barnes hitting at the bottom are both solid OBP players who give Taylor and Seager more RBI chances then having Joc hitting 7th or 8th. Also gives us a higher chance of the pitcher getting to just bunt them over and do something productive then having them just strikeout. I believe in having a mix of OBP and power. It's better to be balanced then to be pure power. Not everyone needs to be a HR threat P make more mistakes with runners on base and gain more confidence with each strikeout as a team we need to cut down on the strikeouts imo Verdugo helps with that.
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Verdugo's Availability 

Post#116 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:26 am

CF55 wrote:I think Verdugo is starting in LF or CF to start the season for us next season the FO refused to deal him for Gray Verlander Archer among others what could they possibly get that would entice them to move him now? Verdugo has a better throwing arms then everyone on the team that much I can guarantee. It's also very accurate. The FO has done the same formula since they took over. Joc came up for September in 14 then started in 15. Seager in 15 then started in 16. Toles in 16 started in 17. Verdugo is that next guy I think they value him highly because of his OBP skills and + Defense and +++ throwing arm is my guess. I could be wrong but this front office has usually maintained a line when they say someone is untouchable. They kept Joc, Corey, Urias, Bellinger and I believe they will keep Buehler and Verdugo like they have said. We have a ton of other guys to move in deals but when this FO singles out prospects they keep them. You could argue theyes didn't keep JDL but I think his was more due to medicals then anything else.


You're right in that the Dodgers seemed to put Verdugo off-limits with regards to the discussion for Gray and Verlander, however, such discussions with the Tigers had more to do with their unreasonable demands of high-level prospects while also not eating much, if any, money left on JV's deal. With regards to Archer, I'm not so sure he wouldn't be available. I may be biased but the Rays have been asking for quite a lot in return, which goes beyond just Verdugo.

At the same time, I have to acknowledge that the front office has gone on the record to speak of how highly they think of him and that it would be difficult for them to move him implying a highly coveted status. Friedman & Zaidi have said that nobody is really untouchable but the point stands. Could they be trying to pump up Verdugo's value before selling high like they did with Dee Gordon a day after Zaidi went on the record stating that they were looking to keep Dee? Quite possibly, but the difference is that Gordon was not a prospect and in line to get a huge raise. However, the outfield is fairly crowded and he's a valued asset.

The thing is that Verdugo--and Buehler, for that matter--are not as highly thought of across baseball as Seager, Urias, and Bellinger were when they were respectively in the prospect rankings. Pederson wasn't even to those levels, although he was certainly highly thought of coming up and being a part of the coveted collection of sexy prospects the Dodgers had. Teams were certainly calling about all of them including Joc. It sounds like Verdugo is being portrayed as having similar value to Pederson at the height of his prospect reputation, but to me, he doesn't quite reach that level of value.

Maybe the organization sees something in Verdugo that is missed by most other evaluators, which again, is not to say that he is not a highly valued prospect. It's just that what the front office is selling hasn't passed the eye or smell test so far. I've already gone over my personal observance of him in the field but even as an advanced prospect right now (with limited athletic ability and power potential), MLB Pipeline has him currently ranked 23rd. That probably doesn't mean much since they severely under-estimated Cody Bellinger for whatever reason as well, but usually when that happens, you'll find a handful of baseball writers or prospect analysts who'll rave about certain prospects that differ from the wide consensus. I haven't come across any such media endorsement at this point.

With regards to Jose De Leon, the organization just didn't seem to value him that much before we traded him. A lot of his failure to impress likely has to do with his medical issues, but it fast-tracked Brock Stewart ahead of him and praised Stewart highly with respect to JDL. To support your earlier point about how highly valued a prospect may be, I don't recall anyone in the front office ever praising Jose highly. It was always something along the lines of the team thinking that he has a bright future ahead of him and having the potential of being a long-time Major Leaguer or something similarly generic.

This stood out because a lot of us--including myself--were chomping at the bit for De Leon to get his shot with the Dodgers as he was among the top 10, if not top 5, prospects in baseball at one point. A lot of this may have to do with De Leon relying on control and deception with his changeup being his most noteworthy offering. The organization tends to favor high-velocity fastballs and sliders with high-spin rates in their top pitching prospects.
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Verdugo's Limited Upside 

Post#117 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:47 am

CF55 wrote:Again Verdugo doesn't have HR power he has shown gap power he hits a good amount of singles and doubles and makes things happen. But knowing the Dodgers if we do keep Verdugo he will get advised to swing under the ball and they will try to turn hIm into a power hitter like they did with Toles before his injury last season. I never said he was better then Puig or had more potential I said he would have a more positive impact on the team then Joc and I still believe that. We don't need Joc hitting 7th and have him hitting 220 to 240 we need someone to get on base at the bottom of the lineup so Barnes and Taylor get chances to get hits with peogle on base instead of always hitting with the bases empty.


Here's the thing. It's hard for me to envision Alex Verdugo as being a player who traditionally "makes things happen" when he is lacking in both speed and power at the moment. I get that he makes good contact and has a good eye at the plate, but he seems limited as a station-to-station hitter. You mention that he hits the ball in the gap, so that would qualify depending on how proficient he really is at that, but we'll see if he can solve our problems with timely hitting with runners in scoring position on a regular basis.

I agree that we need more players trying to set the table and moving runners over, but even with his strengths, I'm not of the impression that he's a Tony Gwynn type hitter. I'm not saying he should be a Hall-of-Fame player as I'm just using that comparison for stylistic purposes only.

You seem to follow his development quite a bit, so I guess what I'm asking is for more things you may know that might convince me to change my perception of him. I'm actually not trying to start an argument given my responses lately, I'm genuinely curious to see if I missed something from the information I've gathered about him.
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Re: 2017-18 OFF-SEASON 

Post#118 » by CF55 » Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:56 am

I'm higher on Verdugo then most I get that. Not gonna argue anymore we disagree and it's cool. (Just saw the part in your post about what I know about Verdugo - He has always been a good defender people say he can't be successful cause of his speed but he proved them wrong at every level, people said he couldn't even be a viable Hitting prospect when he was in the draft he's now a top 25 prospect in all of baseball, is he Tony Gwynn? No he's going to be an elite defender in RF or LF or an above average CF, and offensively I see a 280 to 300 hitter with a max of 60 to 70 strikeouts a year 10 to 15 Homers and 30+ doubles in his prime. He's not gonna be a star he's gonna be a winning player that teams love to have but with us he wouldn't need to be a star we need some grit to go with the star power)

I'm also still low on Joc I'm not giving him a pass because he got some Homers and doubles in the playoffs. What sticks out to me most with Joc is game 7 bottom of the first bases loaded and he did what he does best strikeout.

As for Archer anyone who pays a premium for him is moronic. If Friedman really wanted him he would have payed up by now. Archer sucks people think he's good because he strikes people out but nah he sucks. Archers best role is actually a late inning reliever because he's good at missing bats but when players make contact it's hard and usually travels a good distance into the bleachers or into the gap on a rope. I want no part of Archer on this team it would be Yu vs Astros every time he starts.

Well Verdugo is not as highly though of as Seager Urias and Bellinger, Buehler is. Urias was 5th best prospect going into the 2016 season, Buehler ended the 17 season as a top 10 prospect according to most. In baseball a top 5 to 10 spec is similar value wise. Both Urias and Walker are looked at as potential aces in the future. I could stomach the Dodgers dealing Verdugo in right deal I would be super bummed. Dealing Buehler would make me join the Fraudman Faction of Dodger fans who hate Friedman and company. We haven't had an elite RHP in how long? We got a potential elite RHP in Buehler we need to keep him. If either get dealt to Rays the only silver lining is I live in Orlando and would finally have a reason to drive to Tampa for a Rays game or two.
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Support for Buehler & Verdugo 

Post#119 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 5, 2017 5:12 am

CF55 wrote:I'm higher on Verdugo then most I get that. Not gonna argue anymore we disagree and it's cool.

I'm also still low on Joc I'm not giving him a pass because he got some Homers and doubles in the playoffs. What sticks out to me most with Joc is game 7 bottom of the first bases loaded and he did what he does best strikeout.

As for Archer anyone who pays a premium for him is moronic. If Friedman really wanted him he would have payed up by now. Archer sucks people think he's good because he strikes people out but nah he sucks. Archers best role is actually a late inning reliever because he's good at missing bats but when players make contact it's hard and usually travels a good distance into the bleachers or into the gap on a rope. I want no part of Archer on this team it would be Yu vs Astros every time he starts.

Well Verdugo is not as highly though of as Seager Urias and Bellinger, Buehler is. Urias was 5th best prospect going into the 2016 season, Buehler ended the 17 season as a top 10 prospect according to most. In baseball a top 5 to 10 spec is similar value wise. Both Urias and Walker are looked at as potential aces in the future. I could stomach the Dodgers dealing Verdugo in right deal I would be super bummed. Dealing Buehler would make me join the Fraudman Faction of Dodger fans who hate Friedman and company. We haven't had an elite RHP in how long? We got a potential elite RHP in Buehler we need to keep him. If either get dealt to Rays the only silver lining is I live in Orlando and would finally have a reason to drive to Tampa for a Rays game or two.


I don't think you're necessarily alone in your valuation of Verdugo. Quake Griffin and Neddy have both come to his defense but that's usually when I refer to him as more trade bait than long-term player. I honestly wasn't trying to argue, though that tends to happen anyway with me regardless of my intentions. I need to get a life.

I'm not entirely sold on Archer either, but I'm just relaying the feeling I get based on previous speculation surrounding his availability. Now a lot of it may just be conjecture and bunk, but there is a connection between Friedman and Archer since I believe he was the one who traded for him in a deal with the Cubs.

You certainly have a shared sentiment with regards to Buehler, though, as Quake has been high on him before either Neddy or myself, I believe. I certainly think his ceiling is high given his repertoire of pitches, control, and high-velocity. My main concern is his long-term health. Pitchers are always a health risk, but given his build, recent surgery, and the mechanical flaws that Neddy pointed out when he was first drafted, he presents a higher risk than most others. At the same time, his maturity and demeanor provides optimism that he can take to instruction quickly.
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Re: 2017-18 OFF-SEASON 

Post#120 » by Quake Griffin » Sun Nov 5, 2017 3:42 pm

The topic of his speed is overblown to me.

https://youtu.be/B0hpOzl2Tdo
^^^
When I see this video, the last thing I think about is, “Wow. Look at how slow he is out of the box”...and you will see that if you watch the clip.

He stole 9/12 bags last year. 36/50 in the minors. That’s a decent clip for a player who is the occasional base stealer.

Nothing about looking at Alex says he isnt 1st to 3rd on a single or 1st to home on a double.

He possesses the adequate and necessary speed for a corner OF.


LF has been a revolving door for damn near a decade. I’m not going to treat Verdugo as bait just to try and fill LF with some crappy platoon.




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