2017-18 OFF-SEASON

[Ranma]

I'd hate to see Honeycutt leave us only to join another team and I'm not thrilled with the front office going after an analytics guy to be our pitching coach. I'm also disappointed Herges didn't get the chance to join our big league team as he seemed to be doing great work with our young arms in AAA.

Robert Murray, FanRagSports.com (10/30/17)

“It would be a major upset if he’s back,” one source said.

Honeycutt is a highly-regarded pitching coach and is considered among the best in the game.

His close relationship with Clayton Kershaw, among others, shouldn’t be underestimated. Honeycutt leaving, either to retire, join the Dodgers’ front office or to join another club, would be a blow to Kershaw and the rest of the rotation.

It’s likely that if Honeycutt does leave, the Dodgers look for someone who is more on page with the front office in regards to analytics.

The Dodgers don’t seem likely to promote from within, either, as they let Matt Herges, their Triple-A pitching coach, leave to become the next bullpen coach for the San Francisco Giants.

Rick Honeycutt Unlikely to Return to Dodgers Next Season

[Neddy]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
F Yu. F Friedman for trading for him and shutting Ryu out of the post season roster.
F the bigot and even that didn't fire up Yu for game 7.
F everything and everyone.



F F F F F F F F F F F F F F












okay.... I am sorta done venting....











we better pull the Royals and win it all next season.











****!!!!






just one more time.... **** Dave!!!!!

[Neddy]

looks like all of you are gone to bed.

looking forward to the off season thread.

we came close, so we lost. it isn't over. baseball is never over. I am already ready for the 2018 season.


Urias should be back, I want him as our #5 starter.

Buehler should be given a chance, #6 starter aka long man.

Kershaw is back, unless we trade him. I would like to consider what we can get in the market, but our FO will not make him available. so Kershaw is #1, Hill will be #2. I would expect McCarthy to be back for next season to start, and be #3. I want Ryu to be the #4. Maeda has proven to be a very effective reliever, although Dave will keep him as a starter for his bonus money.
but the ideal rotation should be

Kershaw
Hill
McCarthy
Ryu
Urias
Buehler

and whenever McCarthy implodes again, Walker can take over that spot.

if we can actually sign Otani, that changes the entire make up.

both Maeda and Urias coming off the injury can be the long man/setup guys for now, with

Kershaw
Otani
HIll
McCarthy
Ryu

being our rotation to start the season and whomever fails can be replaced with the two long man studs.

[Kilroy]

I get the frustration with Kershaw, but you can't trade him... He's pretty much gotta be a lifer...

But Yu, on the other hand... He might need to bounce... Wood's a gamer... Not sure if he's a real ace, but he's a gamer... Kenley's a 3 OUT!!!! Closer... Anything else is just showing off, and risky as hell... Hill's like a robot... But against any other team than the Astros, he's a true Ace... Morrow is our setup man and goes nowhere... He's brilliant at it and seems to eat it up...
Not sure about Maeda... When he's on, he's almost unhittable, but he's not on very often...

[Quake Griffin]

Well. I originally said stand pat. Then when we got Yu, I was on board. I didnt think we needed another ace. I liked Wood.

Ryu just shouldn’t have been left off the roster for any of the series IMO. When you have a guy like Brandon McCarthy doing nothing but serving up a homer to George Springer and nothing else, it’s a shame Ryu wasn’t on the roster.

Even if Ryu didnt get a start, I think he could have been the difference as a long man or 2nd long man. The difference meaning we could have won imo with him.
____________

We need to move on from the Kershaw era. It is holding our team back.

We have to give the keys to the franchise over to Corey and Cody. And before I hear whining about their ABs this series, they are our young core. They weren’t any worse than Rizzo or Bryant in the NLCS and what Cubs fan doesnt want to build around those two.

This team is too centered around Kershaw’s diva demands and getting him over his postseason hump. We finally got over pitching him on 3 days rest in October. However, we still do things like leave him in too long in Game 5 when he’s stinking up the joint. For what? Was it necessary for him to face Springer/Bregman? Was he the better matchup? Nope. It was to try and get him a WS win to decorate his resume with...one he shouldn’t have been proud of given the grand slam he gave up to Yuli and how that broke a postseason record for HRs in a postseason.

Now look at the MMQB. Nobody said Shaw should start yesterday. Now this morning everyone is saying he should have started. How could Dave not start him if he was available?

GET FROM UNDER THIS ****.

This guy has not earned the right to hold our fans or managers hostage with stuff like this - have Dave keep him in in that Game 5 or have Dave get slammed for not starting him yesterday like he’s Schilling or Jack Morris. He can suck all he wants in October and any time you get closed out and hes not out there, it’s a huge mistake. No. He’s part of the reason we got closed out. Our fans deserve a ring.

We’ve watched the Yankees win 5. We’ve watched the Giants win 3. Cardinals 2.

OUR FANS DESERVE A RING. MULTIPLE RINGS! We deserve a big run over 5-10 years that we can joke about in future years.

I’m not trying to drag this fraud to ONE ring before he retires and be the 90s Braves. I would **** HATE THAT. We deserve more. Demand more.

Baseball MartinToVaught over and out.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Kilroy]

In retrospect... I'm still a little concerned about our bats...
Puig, Joc and Culberson turned into different animals in the post season/finals... Unfortunately, so did Turner and Belinger...
Taylor was pretty much a machine, so no complaints there.

But our bats are clearly not on the same tier as the Astros... I love Turner but we need to stop relying on him so much. I hope Seager is healthy and can improve a little this year... And I hope Bellinger can figure out inside sliders... I hope we find a better option behind the plate than Barnes... He's just not good enough offensively or defensively. He's solid but not really great at anything.
Seems a shame to keep **** in reserve for double switches etc... He seems too good for that.
If Culberson can play like he did in October for us all season, he needs a spot too...

So we have some pieces we could move if we wanted to... Or we could just stand pat and hope our guys use this as motivation to get a lot better at the dish... But unless they do, and unless we can figure out a group of starting pitchers that can be relied on to last more than 3.5 innings against a team like Houston... It's hard to see us going any farther than we did this season.

[Quake Griffin]

As I've mentioned before, there were other people more responsible for our failure to live up to expectations. Kershaw's collapse in the one game could have sealed the deal, but we had plenty of other opportunities. It could be argued that Jansen's failures cost us opportunities to come away victorious, but we all know he was overworked.

^^^
This is the type of thinking that let's this guy off the hook time after time.

We need to make the postseason and he helps us. Others are more culpable.


Having a $35 million pitcher and saying anything other than, "he was effin fantastic all the way through October" is a crime in and of itself. There's no way we should even be having a discussion about his LEVEL of culpability in a playoff failure. It should always be ZERO...ALWAYS.

We only demand the most when our hearts aren't in it. Yu? Oh, he's mentally fragile, don't resign him. Oh Yasmani has a streaky bat? Screw him, Austin is better (and tbh it isn't by much). A-Gon? GTFO it's cody Bellinger time, etc. etc.

TAKE OUT HEARTS OFF OF THIS GUY.
He's done nothing but contribute to any failure we've had in the last 5 years.

2013? Game 6 Cards. Contributed to failure.
2014? Single handedly lost us the NLDS vs. the Cards. I remember being hurt more after that series than after Game 5 of this World Series.
2015? Couldn't even get through probably one of the weakest October lineups in a Game 1 vs. the Mets, gave up 3 runs in 6.2 and lost the game while deGrom pitched his ass off TWICE.
2016? 1 bad start vs. Washington. 1 semi-good start that he coughed up late. Terrible Game 6 vs. Chicago that got us closed out.
2017? Game 5 WS. Most HRs in postseason history.

I want a WS. I don't want to be close. I don't want to be the Braves. I want a dynasty. I am NO LONGER interested in getting over the hump with him and having a moment of gloryw hen he FINALLY does it. Do it somewhere else. He can net us a good return. We wouldn't be too far off schedule. He's missed signficant time in the past 2 years and we haven't skipped a beat WHILE he was out. We did falter this year but he was there for that.

Oh and if I'm being too mean and irrational about who Peyton Kershaw.

The rational argument:
Nagging back problems.
Shouldn't hitch ourselves to a big contract given that.
Why lose him for a 2nd round pick when we can get more this offseason?

[Ranma]

This is the type of thinking that let's this guy off the hook time after time.

We need to make the postseason and he helps us. Others are more culpable.


Having a $35 million pitcher and saying anything other than, "he was effin fantastic all the way through October" is a crime in and of itself. There's no way we should even be having a discussion about his LEVEL of culpability in a playoff failure. It should always be ZERO...ALWAYS.

I strongly disagree. Name another pitcher who will be available that would provide us with his production. I'm not making excuses for him but seeing him in a more reasonable light. I've been one of the biggest Kershaw fans even just before the Dodgers drafted him. I've been quick to point to his shortcomings and expressed my deep disappointment in him when he had control issues early into his career thinking at the time how much of a waste of potential he would be if he couldn't get that fixed.

I've agreed with you that he should add a change-up to his repertoire because I've thought that very same thing from even before I started coming to RealGM regularly. He's still recognized as the best pitcher of his generation. Is he perfect? No, but is it reasonable to expect him to be? I'm well aware that he's fallen short of his lofty reputation in certain aspects, but he's still a great pitcher that any team in baseball would love to have.

You make a reasonable point about his back issue and possible contract demands, but he would certainly garner us a first-round pick if he were to leave in free agency. That is barring a career-ending injury. Pitchers are a health risk regardless, but few are good enough to last this long in the majors and even fewer still have his kind of talent and track record for performance even with his postseason failures.

He's a good person on and off the field, works diligently, and is competitive. You're not going to get short-changed on his effort and, despite his notable postseason collapses, nobody questions his will to win. Some of his problems have to do with his stubbornness and tendency to be amped up, but conversely, those also help him to be great.

While he's not as accomplished as either, you're basically advocating something along the lines of the Celtics trading Larry Bird or the Lakers trading Magic Johnson. Even in their declining years, that would be unfathomable to any fan.

By the way, a lot of his postseason failures have been on short rest. Yeah, he failed in Game 5 on normal rest, but that's like one of the few times he's been afforded such a luxury. Coincidentally or not, he mentioned before Game 7 how he had to adjust outside of his routine and seemingly welcomed it. He then gave us 4 superb innings that kept us in the game.

You have to have faith in some of your players. Some are worth such devotion while others are not. Kershaw has plenty of attributes that deserves such belief. I'm optimistic that he'll learn from the experience and eventually make the right adjustments, but in the meantime he's still providing tremendous production. For crying out loud, he's still getting Cy Young consideration despite missing over a month of the season.

In the end, I'm taking the good and the bad with Clayton Kershaw in having more realistic expectations of him. He provides way more good than bad. Even if it cost us a lot of money to hitch our wagon to him, it's a privilege to do so, especially if the organization has been paying plenty of players not to play for them. The bottom line is that Kershaw provides us with a reasonable expectation to win on any given night. You don't disregard the overall package because of a few albeit notable shortcomings.

[Kilroy]

Ethier's our new "Utley"... Utley, Granderson, and hopefully AGon, need to go...
Who else?
Yu probably should be shopped... Not sure what his value is at this point...

What about pitchers... Watson? Stewert? McCarthy? Liked Cigriani some nights... But not sure... Do we continue the Urias experiment? Baez?

There's a lot of good players there... Some dead weight, but not too many Gems... At least not for a WS hopeful.

[Ranma]

For all the praise Madison Bumgarner gets deservedly so as a postseason pitcher, his boneheaded motorbike accident cost him most of the 2017 season and the Giants fell into irrelevance. His shoulder might still be a concern moving forward. While he's on a reasonable contract, so the point doesn't really translate as well, there's no fan in San Francisco who wouldn't hesitate to continue to ride with him. Kershaw deserves the same amount of faith and, quite frankly, loyalty.

We've seen plenty of good-to-great pitchers come up short this postseason including Max Scherzer, Kyle Hendricks, and Chris Sale. And yet Clayton Kershaw has become the focus of criticism. For crying out loud, David Price is basically a relief pitcher now. Dodgers fans more than anyone else should realize how lucky we are that we have such a horse that we can count on to start games and, much more times than not, give us quality innings.

The fact that there are so few pitchers able to even reach this level, especially in this age of the juiced ball under the Manfred era, makes him all the more valuable, not less so.

[Quake Griffin]

I'm going to strongly disagree. Name another pitcher who will be available that would provide us with his production.

Who says we need a pitcher to fill with his production level to fulfill our goals and potential? We have a good defense. We typically have a good pen. We have decent pieces to follow behind a true ace. This team doesn't NEED this guy to get anywhere. He helps but we've definitely survived his absences in the last 2 years.

Pretty good farm btw in the event we need to make a deal and acquire an ace.

I've agreed with you that he should add a change-up to his repertoire because I've thought that very same thing from even before I started coming to RealGM regularly. He's still recognized as the best pitcher of his generation. Is he perfect? No, but is it reasonable to expect him to be? I'm well aware that he's fallen short of his lofty reputation in certain aspects, but he's still a great pitcher that any team in baseball would love to have.

At his pay rate? Yeah. When you think about all the nobodies who aren't hall of famers who just showed up and had great postseasons while he continues to fumble, then the answer becomes even more of a yes. He's not Bumgarner but he's not even pitchers who don't have decorated October resumes.

By the way, a lot of his postseason failures has been on short rest. Yeah, he failed in Game 5 on normal rest, but that's like the first time he could be expected to get such a luxury. Coincidentally or not, he mentioned before Game 7 how he had to adjust outside of his routine and seemingly welcomed it. He then gave us 4 superb innings that kept us in the game.

2014 Game 1 NLDS vs. St. Louis?
2015 Game 1 NLDs vs. NYM? I'm guessing you'll say 6.2 and 3 ER wasn't a failure but he left the bags juiced on his way out and his 3 ER lost that game 3 to 1.
2016 Game 1 NLDS vs. Nats? 5 IP 4 ER? He's lucky to get a W out of that.
2016 Game 6 NLCS vs. Cubs? On normal rest. 5 IP 5 ER.
2017 Game 1 NLDS Diamondbacks? 4 homers.
2017 Game 5 WS? Blows 2 sizeable leads when our team needs length from him...6 minimum.

^^^^
His failures on normal rest.

You make a reasonable point about his back issue and possible contract demands, but he would certainly garner us a first-round pick if he were to leave in free agency. That is barring a career-ending injury. Pitchers are a health risk regardless, but few are good enough to last this long in the majors and even fewer still have his kind of talent and track record for performance even with his postseason failures.

I thought the CBA made it so it was only a 2nd? What the hell? I continue to not know how they adjusted this rule.

He's a good person on and off the field, works diligently, and is competitive. You're not going to get short-changed on his effort and, despite his notable postseason collapses, nobody questions his will to win. Some of his problems have to do with his stubbornness and tendency to be amped up, but conversely, those also help him to be great.

This doesn't really matter at the end of the day if it doesn't amount to rings. I'm not hitching my wagon to no rings and playoff failures just because he's nice and built an orphanage in Zambia.

While he's not as accomplished as either, you're basically advocating something along the lines of the Celtics trading Larry Bird or the Lakers trading Magic Johnson. Even in their declining years, that would be unfathomable to any fan.

It's really more akin to a Stockton/Malone or a Payton/Kemp type thing based on who he is. He gets extra stripes because he's a good person and he's an All American type of person that some fans would like to have a beer with. Not me. IDC about that. He doesn't seem like my type of guy.

I don't honestly care what is unfathomable. I care about what is going to bring Los Angeles glory and end our drought. While more important than each one of them individually he is our Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Elden Campbell. No way the Lakers are better by trading those 3, right? Our Adrian Dantley.
BRB 3 chips in a row.

[Kilroy]

Stockton made Malone... Malone was essentially Kershaw in that, in big games, he always found a way to come up short... Without Stockton, I'm not even sure he'd be on the list of top 4s all time. So if you're saying Malone didn't get as much love as Stockton because he wasn't as clean cut, I'd have to disagree... I think Stockton is on the list of top 5 pgs all time... Maybe second.

Nick Van Exel was the opposite of Kershaw in that he was better in the post season than regular season... And we traded him for Tyrone Lue and Tony Battie... So no... We did not get better there... He was traded because he was hindering Kobe's development.
We traded Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell for over the hill, and disgruntled Glen Rice... Again because Kobe, and again a loser in my opinion. Rice was supposed to be a lights out 3pt threat but never really put it together for us. And he was like Kershaw in the post season and also didn't jibe with Kobe... Or Shaq for that matter...

So I'm not sure where you're going with this but it does go to show that trading a guy like Kershaw can totally blow up in your face... If nothing else we can trust him to get us to the post season... Which is no small feat... We just need some good guys to surround him with, and given we have deep pockets, that shouldn't be impossible.

[Ranma]

Who says we need a pitcher to fill with his production level to fulfill our goals and potential? We have a good defense. We typically have a good pen. We have decent pieces to follow behind a true ace. This team doesn't NEED this guy to get anywhere. He helps but we've definitely survived his absences in the last 2 years.

Pretty good farm btw in the event we need to make a deal and acquire an ace.

Name a contender who doesn't get to the World Series without an ace. The Houston Astros traded for one at the deadline and it put them over the top. You mention a true ace, but you still haven't named another player who would be available that would provide Kershaw's level of production. Kershaw is most definitely an ace and you're not going to find any MLB expert that thinks otherwise.

Farm systems are in place with the hope of developing their own homegrown superstars. We've been blessed with Clayton Kershaw and you want to readily discard him? When it's all said and done, he'll have a better career than either Cody Bellinger or Corey Seager. Even moving forward, there's a reasonable expectation that he'll post more valuable numbers as a pitcher than either Bellinger or Seager for the next several years as hitters.

Our prospect developmental pipeline is full of depth but we're lacking in the number of top-level blue chips. Walker Buehler is currently our best prospect but he only just now barely cracked the top 10 MLB Pipeline rankings. He's not as highly thought of as Urias, Seager, or even Bellinger when they were brought through the system, so even if a "true ace" were available, we probably don't have the chips to trade for one.

I believe you were reluctant to give up Alex Verdugo for Justin Verlander, so what exactly are you expecting the Dodgers to do to find someone to replace Clayton Kershaw?

At his pay rate? Yeah. When you think about all the nobodies who aren't hall of famers who just showed up and had great postseasons while he continues to fumble, then the answer becomes even more of a yes. He's not Bumgarner but he's not even pitchers who don't have decorated October resumes.

2014 Game 1 NLDS vs. St. Louis?
2015 Game 1 NLDs vs. NYM? I'm guessing you'll say 6.2 and 3 ER wasn't a failure but he left the bags juiced on his way out and his 3 ER lost that game 3 to 1.
2016 Game 1 NLDS vs. Nats? 5 IP 4 ER? He's lucky to get a W out of that.
2016 Game 6 NLCS vs. Cubs? On normal rest. 5 IP 5 ER.
2017 Game 1 NLDS Diamondbacks? 4 homers.
2017 Game 5 WS? Blows 2 sizeable leads when our team needs length from him...6 minimum.

^^^^
His failures on normal rest.

This doesn't really matter at the end of the day if it doesn't amount to rings. I'm not hitching my wagon to no rings and playoff failures just because he's nice and built an orphanage in Zambia.

Certain players are worth more than the money they are paid and Kershaw happens to be one of those players. From a public relations and marketing perspective, Kershaw sells seats, merchandise, and garners media attention and prestige. I also tend to value on-field production more than those things, but I'm not going to totally dismiss those other considerations.

Even from an on-field argument, a case can be made that we're paying for quality innings and by that metric, he'd be worth the money paid to him. He tends to pitch well until the 7th inning...not great but well. Even with his innings of failure, if you count only strictly his innings of production, he'd arguably be worth the money. Personally, I'm not really onboard with such an argument, but a lot of his problem would also have been solved with better management.

Again, Kershaw may not be a postseason hero that has gotten us over the top, but he's integral to our success and not just simply a part of it. The solution should be to add more around him than trying to do the practically impossible in trying to replace him. Such misguided thinking had the Dodgers previously spend money that would have been enough to sign, for instance, Adrian Beltre for the likes of J.D. Drew, Jeff Kent, and Derek Lowe instead.

As a bonus, he happens to be a great guy who does philanthropic work. That by itself doesn't make him worth big-money contracts since there are other professional athletes who do that, but it makes me feel better about him getting his money and rooting for him, which again, only further underscores how lucky were are to have a J.J. Watt-like figure as a part of our team.

I thought the CBA made it so it was only a 2nd? What the hell? I continue to not know how they adjusted this rule.

You know what? It looks like I was the one who is off. I thought any team would get a 1st-rounder if the free agent previously provided with the qualifying offer simply received a deal at or over $50 million guaranteed as long as the team losing the free agent didn't pay the luxury tax. It looks like that privilege is only afforded to teams who receive revenue sharing money, which won't be the Dodgers any time soon. That's just crap and yet another example of Manfred's stupidity.

This is all the more reason why we should keep Kershaw even though a first-round pick was not worth losing him for, anyway.

It's really more akin to a Stockton/Malone or a Payton/Kemp type thing based on who he is. He gets extra stripes because he's a good person and he's an All American type of person that some fans would like to have a beer with. Not me. IDC about that. He doesn't seem like my type of guy.

I don't honestly care what is unfathomable. I care about what is going to bring Los Angeles glory and end our drought. While more important than each one of them individually he is our Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Elden Campbell. No way the Lakers are better by trading those 3, right? Our Adrian Dantley.
BRB 3 chips in a row.

Even if we are to equate Kershaw with either Stockton or Malone, it just further illustrates my point that he needs support. The Utah Jazz of the 80's and early 90's didn't have the supporting cast of the Showtime Lakers or Bird's Celtics. It's insulting that a fellow Dodger fan would equate Clayton Kershaw at any level to a Van Exel, Jones, Campbell, or even Dantley. He's generally thought of as the best pitcher of his generation and has posted numbers that have rivaled and surpassed Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez, and even Randy Johnson.

While he's come up short in the postseason in key moments, he's had more early success than all 3 of those Hall-of-Fame pitchers. In fact, both Johnson and Koufax struggled with control issues early in their careers and didn't get postseason success until late into their respective careers. Pedro didn't always post grand numbers in the postseason either. And yet all 3 are among the most revered in the game in terms of all-time consideration. Basically, Kershaw is being penalized for being too good too soon in some respect.

[Quake Griffin]

Isn't that my point with Nick? The actual trade didn't make you better player for player. It was more important to move on from him to open up opportunities for your franchise - in this case open up Kobe's development. Thought Shaq asked for him to be dealt for 1-2-3 Cancun?? That's another day and another story though.

I don't expect to trade Kershaw for a Kershaw level pitcher. I don't expect to trade him for Trout 1 to 1 at least. I'm trading him to get value, move on as an organization and find a different way to skin the cat.

I'm saying I view Shaw as along the order of Stockton and Malone in that they haven't won anything and I hold them in nowhere near the esteem that I do Magic and Bird. Maybe they are beloved by Jazz fans but I know what it's like to have stars not win you anything and IMO, I'd never say I love them as much as people who have seen their stars bring them multiple rings.

I was saying he is along their order to me but maybe Ranma holds Kershaw in the Magic/Bird esteem because he's a good person. I don't.


and yeah, it could blow up in our face. That's why i say, don't make a deal unless you can make it with conviction. I think i could make a deal with conviction and live with the consequences.

[Ranma]

and yeah, it could blow up in our face. That's why i say, don't make a deal unless you can make it with conviction. I think i could make a deal with conviction and live with the consequences.

Think about what you're saying. We were within 1 game of the World Series title coming off of a 100-win season while plowing through the NLDS and NLCS and you're comfortable with the idea of making drastic changes to the core of our roster despite the players saying how good this group of players is and how our front office has been praised for putting together a championship-quality roster. And you're okay with taking such a gamble.

Do you know how absurd that sounds if that came from non-Dodgers fans? You've even acknowledged how this line of thinking has approached some of MartinToVaught's sometimes irrational thinking. If we've learned anything as Clippers fans, it's that we should take advantage of building around hard-to-find premium pieces before the championship window closes and not resort with Dave-Roberts-like panic to pushing the self-destruct button.

You're worrying more about fixing an issue that doesn't need to be fixed at the expense of sabotaging a team that was this close to winning the championship. Instead of focusing on replacing Yu Darvish or having Dave Roberts act less like a robo-manager with his hand on the panic button, you're advocating to get rid of one of the all-time best pitchers in baseball.

There are plenty of avenues to improve this team that should be discussed and yet you're focusing on messing with one of our team's strengths. We're going to have problems maintaining what we have as it is. Our over-reliance on the bullpen along with Darvish's multiple meltdowns show how important it is to add quality starting pitching instead of subtracting from it.

Honestly, you were complaining last winter that we paid too much and bidded against ourselves for Rich Hill when that was not really the case. And yet if we had taken your preferred approach, Hill would not have been around this postseason and we'd have lost in Game 6 or earlier.

Take a moment and look at the overall picture instead of focusing on such a narrow narrative that doesn't really matter.

[Ranma]

Part of the reason why this conversation bugs me is because I'm a fan of the Clippers and Dodgers beyond just winning championships. As a Clippers fan, I'd have to be, right? The same also applies to my support of the Rams and Kings, but I have a stronger emotional attachment to both the Clips and Dodgers.

It hurts me that we blew our chance at winning the World Series this past season, but part of the joy of rooting for my teams is having great players represent our respective franchises. As a long suffering Clippers fan, I place importance on having players bringing respect to the organization since there have been so few, which is why it hurt for Chris Paul to leave us. I'm still conflicted about his departure, but at least I can point to Doc Rivers's failure as organizational leader for why we've come up short.

The Dodgers obviously don't have a shortage of all-time greats representing them, but it doesn't make the ones we currently and will have any less valuable. I want that World Series ring for the Dodgers even more than ever, which is why I think it is important that we actually address the problems that need to be fixed.

Clayton Kershaw did not lose the World Series by himself. There were plenty of other targets for fingers to be pointed at. We've resigned ourselves to accepting that Kershaw may never be a great postseason pitcher (emphasis on "may"), but I'm not going to marginalize his importance or contributions to the team. As a team leader, he may be a little lacking in that role, but his overall production doesn't really warrant criticism.

I'm not saying that we can't be critical of him whenever he falls short, especially since I've cited his stubbornness and inability to calm down at times, but there's a point where it crosses the line. However, there are legitimate concerns about his back as well, so it is fair to question whether he'll be worth whatever long-term contract he'll be asking for, but the idea of trading him simply because of his postseason failures in light of his production and the competitive environment in baseball is just ridiculous.

If Clayton Kershaw wants to come back as a Dodger, we should always be open to the idea.

[Quake Griffin]

and yeah, it could blow up in our face. That's why i say, don't make a deal unless you can make it with conviction. I think i could make a deal with conviction and live with the consequences.

Think about what you're saying. We were within 1 game of the World Series title coming off of a 100-win season while plowing through the NLDS and NLCS and you're comfortable with the idea of making drastic changes to the core of our roster despite the players saying how good this group of players is and how our front office has been praised for putting together a championship-quality roster. And you're okay with taking such a gamble.

Do you know how absurd that sounds if that came from non-Dodgers fans? You've even acknowledged how this line of thinking has approached some of MartinToVaught's sometimes irrational thinking. If we've learned anything as Clippers fans, it's that we should take advantage of building around hard-to-find premium pieces before the championship window closes and not resort with Dave-Roberts-like panic to pushing the self-destruct button.

You're worrying more about fixing an issue that doesn't need to be fixed at the expense of sabotaging a team that was this close to winning the championship. Instead of focusing on replacing Yu Darvish or having Dave Roberts act less like a robo-manager with his hand on the panic button, you're advocating to get rid of one of the all-time best pitchers in baseball.

There are plenty of avenues to improve this team that should be discussed and yet you're focusing on messing with one of our team's strengths. We're going to have problems maintaining what we have as it is. Our over-reliance on the bullpen along with Darvish's multiple meltdowns show how important it is to add quality starting pitching instead of subtracting from it.

Honestly, you were complaining last winter that we paid too much and bidded against ourselves for Rich Hill when that was not really the case. And yet if we had taken your preferred approach, Hill would not have been around this postseason and we'd have lost in Game 6 or earlier.

Take a moment and look at the overall picture instead of focusing on such a narrow narrative that doesn't really matter.

We have proof this team can go for stretches without him and be fine.

Matter of perspective. We probably would have been within 0 games if he didn’t cough up game 5 tbh. I view it as a did you win or didn’t you? Not how many games away were you. Theo is going to improve his Cubs. Luhnow will have Houston ready to go again. Cashman has worked magic again

How many games away were Cleveland last year? You have the Royals example but how close were the Rangers in 2010 and 2011? You could be the 2015 Royals or you can be Dan Marino and never get back.

It’s not like this team didnt pick him up when he stunk this postseason:
- Offense gave him 7 runs in Game 1 while he served up HR after HR to the Dirt Bags.
- Bullpen and Offense save him from a 5 inning start where Almora took him deep.

Last year:
- Offense picked him up in Game 1 of the NLDS where he stunk against a Nats team that he DOMINATES in the regular season.
- Utley game winning AB late to save him from coughing up the lead in Game 4.

I don’t really like this topic being discussed as him needing more help or pieces around him. We have a fantastic group of position players. Good hitters. Good defense. Good pen. <— They need starters who don’t choke...not vice versa.

Other things:

- I never said bring Yu back.
- I’ve been very critical of Dave. I brought up Dave Martinez and how I didnt want him off the market because he was potential Dave replacement.
- As you have still maintained (as have most of us), you dont want Dee back but the Andrew Heaney portion of the deal still bugs you, I maintain 3 years and $48 million for an old pitcher who has lived on a trainer’s table is not a good idea. When you’ve financed Brett Anderson’s, Brandon McCarthy’s, and Scott Kazmir’s retirement to do nothing for you, quadrupling down on an oft-injured pitcher isn’t a bright idea.

This winter your tone was more faith based as you didn’t want Kershaw alone in the rotation but you understood my point. Richie survives year 1 and you’re talking a little tougher about that deal. Still not wise to me even if it works out in the end. Doesn’t mean I hate Rich Hill the person or the teammate or that I won’t pull him. Two separate things.


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[Quake Griffin]

Part of the reason why this conversation bugs me is because I'm a fan of the Clippers and Dodgers beyond just winning championships. As a Clippers fan, I'd have to be, right? The same also applies to my support of the Rams and Kings, but I have a stronger emotional attachment to both the Clips and Dodgers.

It hurts me that we blew our chance at winning the World Series this past season, but part of the joy of rooting for my teams is having great players represent our respective franchises. As a long suffering Clippers fan, I place importance on having players bringing respect to the organization since there have been so few, which is why it hurt for Chris Paul to leave us. I'm still conflicted about his departure, but at least I can point to Doc Rivers's failure as organizational leader for why we've come up short.

The Dodgers obviously don't have a shortage of all-time greats representing them, but it doesn't make the ones we currently and will have any less valuable. I want that World Series ring for the Dodgers even more than ever, which is why I think it is important that we actually address the problems that need to be fixed.

Clayton Kershaw did not lose the World Series by himself. There were plenty of other targets for fingers to be pointed at. We've resigned ourselves to accepting that Kershaw may never be a great postseason pitcher (emphasis on "may"), but I'm not going to marginalize his importance or contributions to the team. As a team leader, he may be a little lacking in that role, but his overall production doesn't really warrant criticism.

I'm not saying that we can't be critical of him whenever he falls short, especially since I've cited his stubbornness and inability to calm down at times, but there's a point where it crosses the line. However, there are legitimate concerns about his back as well, so it is fair to question whether he'll be worth whatever long-term contract he'll be asking for, but the idea of trading him simply because of his postseason failures in light of his production and the competitive environment in baseball is just ridiculous.

If Clayton Kershaw wants to come back as a Dodger, we should always be open to the idea.

And I love the Dodgers more than I love Clayton Kershaw.

LA and our fans deserve glory. Our history going back to Brooklyn is about disappointment year after year after year and finally breaking through.

We have continued that tradition disappointing in 77 and 78 only to win in 81 in a strike shortened season. Mr. October built his name off of us. My father still isnt over 77 and 78 (I think 77 more so) and 1981, in his opinion, didn’t take away the sting. Just like finally breaking through with Kershaw ONCE won’t be enough for me.

Then we shock the world in 1988. Nobody thinks we can beat the Mets. Nobody thinks we can beat the A’s.

Then drought.

We deserve dominance. We deserve a 3 Peat. 4 out of 5. We don’t need to be the little engine that could that finally gets ONE that makes me emotional because I am so happy for the lifelong Dodgers who disappointed me forever. I DONT WANT TO BE THE 90s BRAVES!

****. The Yankees have more WS wins over the Dodgers than we have total.

I want to pull for great players...Seager. Cody. Hopefully Walker and Urias. I’m just done with disappointment.




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[Ranma]

We have proof this team can go for stretches without him and be fine.

Matter of perspective. We probably would have been within 0 games if he didn’t cough up game 5 tbh. I view it as a did you win or didn’t you? Not how many games away were you. Theo is going to improve his Cubs. Luhnow will have Houston ready to go again. Cashman has worked magic again

How many games away were Cleveland last year? You have the Royals example but how close were the Rangers in 2010 and 2011? You could be the 2015 Royals or you can be Dan Marino and never get back.

It’s not like this team didnt pick him up when he stunk this postseason:
- Offense gave him 7 runs in Game 1 while he served up HR after HR to the Dirt Bags.
- Bullpen and Offense save him from a 5 inning start where Almora took him deep.

Last year:
- Offense picked him up in Game 1 of the NLDS where he stunk against a Nats team that he DOMINATES in the regular season.
- Utley game winning AB late to save him from coughing up the lead in Game 4.

I don’t really like this topic being discussed as him needing more help or pieces around him. We have a fantastic group of position players. Good hitters. Good defense. Good pen. <— They need starters who don’t choke...not vice versa.

Other things:

- I never said bring Yu back.
- I’ve been very critical of Dave. I brought up Dave Martinez and how I didnt want him off the market because he was potential Dave replacement.
- As you have still maintained (as have most of us), you dont want Dee back but the Andrew Heaney portion of the deal still bugs you, I maintain 3 years and $48 million for an old pitcher who has lived on a trainer’s table is not a good idea. When you’ve financed Brett Anderson’s, Brandon McCarthy’s, and Scott Kazmir’s retirement to do nothing for you, quadrupling down on an oft-injured pitcher isn’t a bright idea.

This winter your tone was more faith based as you didn’t want Kershaw alone in the rotation but you understood my point. Richie survives year 1 and you’re talking a little tougher about that deal. Still not wise to me even if it works out in the end. Doesn’t mean I hate Rich Hill the person or the teammate or that I won’t pull him. Two separate things.

You say that we'll be fine for stretches without Kershaw. Well, the same was true without Chris Paul or Blake Griffin in the past. Does that mean the Clippers were better off without either of them? Again, you have not answered the question I'm going to pose to you for the 3rd time now. Who will be available that we can obtain who can replace Kershaw?

I'm not arguing whether you like Rich Hill or not. I'm stating as a fact that you did not think we should have signed him to the deal we did. Again, if we had applied such a short-sighted view towards Hill, we would have been worse off than before, just like we'd be worse off without Kershaw.

You're citing non-existent problems without providing realistic alternative solutions. Even your boy Chris Sale was rocked in the AL postseason, so he wouldn't be a better replacement for Kershaw, but he's not available, anyway, so you can scratch him off your list.

And I find this all-or-nothing argument to be beneath you and illogical. Saying that just because we didn't win it this year somehow puts us in the same position as everyone else and citing other teams not in the same position as us as examples is a bad argument,
which you should know better given your dealing with esqtvd.

Not acknowledging progress and what we have to look forward to makes no sense since you've acknowledged many times in the past how well positioned we are with respect to our developmental pipeline and our financial might along with upcoming salary commitments to be removed from the books.

The Royals were built to only sustain a short run and they don't have the resources of the Dodgers, which is why they're blowing up their roster. The Indians still made the postseason and were considered a favorite at some point by many, so it is further perplexing why you would even cite Cleveland to begin with.

To paraphrase a point you've made previously about draft picks being used by other teams, why does it matter what other teams do with their resources when we have a proven front office that knows what to do with its own? Are you saying that we're the Giants?

Again, to repeat something that you've previously agreed with, the Dodgers are not only built to win now but for years to come. Missing to win the World Series by 1 game does not necessarily mean we're a long way from returning. Obviously, nothing is guaranteed but that does not mean we should stop trying to develop or build upon what we have. Or should we go ahead and deal Walker Buehler because he's not yet a major league starting pitcher?

If you seriously don't think that this team built as-is is good enough to compete in the immediate future, then I'm afraid you're setting yourself for never-ending disappointment with such unrealistically high standards.

You've mentioned multiple times how there are alternative ways to build a World Series team, so I again ask you to provide a realistic outline of moves that should be made. If we're going to trade Kershaw, tell me what exactly are we supposed to get for him. Since our bullpen has been overburdened to the point of exhaustion, convince me how getting rid of a dependable horse like Kershaw helps matters instead of worsening it.

By the way, you're also forgetting all those times Kershaw's dominance was wasted when he didn't get enough run support. It cuts both ways and this past World Series, his teammates failed him more than he did his teammates. Our lack of timely hitting with runners in scoring position has been a problem even if it's gotten better.

Houston as a team showed up and the Dodgers didn't. Singling out Kershaw when he wasn't even the most responsible is unfair. If you want to play this game, I could make a stronger case to deal Bellinger away with his World-Series-record-breaking amount of strikeouts and his boneheaded throw to 1B as a better example of a choke job that was more responsible than what Kershaw did to lose us this series. Or how the team was better off with Culberson in place of Seager on the postseason roster.

[Quake Griffin]

We have proof this team can go for stretches without him and be fine.

Matter of perspective. We probably would have been within 0 games if he didn’t cough up game 5 tbh. I view it as a did you win or didn’t you? Not how many games away were you. Theo is going to improve his Cubs. Luhnow will have Houston ready to go again. Cashman has worked magic again

How many games away were Cleveland last year? You have the Royals example but how close were the Rangers in 2010 and 2011? You could be the 2015 Royals or you can be Dan Marino and never get back.

It’s not like this team didnt pick him up when he stunk this postseason:
- Offense gave him 7 runs in Game 1 while he served up HR after HR to the Dirt Bags.
- Bullpen and Offense save him from a 5 inning start where Almora took him deep.

Last year:
- Offense picked him up in Game 1 of the NLDS where he stunk against a Nats team that he DOMINATES in the regular season.
- Utley game winning AB late to save him from coughing up the lead in Game 4.

I don’t really like this topic being discussed as him needing more help or pieces around him. We have a fantastic group of position players. Good hitters. Good defense. Good pen. <— They need starters who don’t choke...not vice versa.

Other things:

- I never said bring Yu back.
- I’ve been very critical of Dave. I brought up Dave Martinez and how I didnt want him off the market because he was potential Dave replacement.
- As you have still maintained (as have most of us), you dont want Dee back but the Andrew Heaney portion of the deal still bugs you, I maintain 3 years and $48 million for an old pitcher who has lived on a trainer’s table is not a good idea. When you’ve financed Brett Anderson’s, Brandon McCarthy’s, and Scott Kazmir’s retirement to do nothing for you, quadrupling down on an oft-injured pitcher isn’t a bright idea.

This winter your tone was more faith based as you didn’t want Kershaw alone in the rotation but you understood my point. Richie survives year 1 and you’re talking a little tougher about that deal. Still not wise to me even if it works out in the end. Doesn’t mean I hate Rich Hill the person or the teammate or that I won’t pull him. Two separate things.

You say that we'll be fine for stretches without Kershaw. Well, the same was true without Chris Paul or Blake Griffin in the past. Does that mean the Clippers were better off without either of them? Again, you have not answered the question I'm going to pose to you for the 3rd time now. Who will be available that we can obtain who can replace Kershaw?

I'm not arguing whether you like Rich Hill or not. I'm stating as a fact that you did not think we should have signed him to the deal we did. Again, if we had applied such a short-sighted view towards Hill, we would have been worse off than before, just like we'd be worse off without Kershaw.

You're citing non-existent problems without providing realistic alternative solutions. Even your boy Chris Sale was rocked in the AL postseason, so he wouldn't be a better replacement for Kershaw, but he's not available, anyway, so you can scratch him off your list.

And I find this all-or-nothing argument to be beneath you and illogical. Saying that just because we didn't win it this year somehow puts us in the same position as everyone else and citing other teams not in the same position as us as examples is a bad argument,
which you should know better given your dealing with esqtvd.

Not acknowledging progress and what we have to look forward to makes no sense since you've acknowledged many times in the past how well positioned we are with respect to our developmental pipeline and our financial might along with upcoming freed salary commitments.

The Royals were built to only sustain a short run and they don't have the resources of the Dodgers, which is why they're blowing up their roster. The Indians still made the postseason and were considered a favorite at some point by many, so it is further perplexing why you would even cite Cleveland to begin with.

To paraphrase a point you've made previously about draft picks being used by other teams, why does it matter what other teams do with their resources when we have a proven front office that knows what to do with its own? Are you saying that we're the Giants?

Again, to repeat something that you've previously agreed with, the Dodgers are not only built to win now but for years to come. Missing to win the World Series by 1 game does not necessarily mean we're a long way from returning. Obviously, nothing is guaranteed but that does not mean we should stop trying to develop or build upon what we have. Or should we go ahead and deal Walker Buehler because he's not yet a major league starting pitcher?

If you seriously don't think that this team built as-is is good enough to compete in the immediate future, then I'm afraid you're setting yourself for never-ending disappointment with such unrealistically high standards.

You've mentioned multiple times how there are alternative ways to build a World Series team, so I again ask you to provide a realistic outline. If we're going to trade Kershaw, tell me what exactly are we supposed to get for him. Since our bullpen has been overburdened to the point of exhaustion, convince me how getting rid of a dependable horse like Kershaw helps matters instead of worsening it.

With the fake binary of with Blake/CP or without Blake/CP, it’s obvious we are worse without. Fortunately, it doesnt work that way and we made other accommodations for CP’s departure and the question is very much still in the air.

I’ve answered that question multiple times. I am not looking for Kershaw’s replacement. You will never trade Kershaw for Kershaw. You will never trade Kershaw for Position-Player-Kershaw. So I’m not interested in that. I’ve already told Neddy I’d take a step back to do this. Not sure why Sale came up. I HAVE NOT hidden the ball on how I feel about this situation.

Kershaw to Boston.
Back. Betts and Devers + a prospect.

I want to build around Corey and Cody with hopes Buehler and Urias arent chokes and put everything into making sure, Otani comes. With Betts and Devers, we can deal for an ace if need be.....if need be while holding onto favs like Kendall.

deGrom?

“Bleak” 2018 outlook?
deGrom
Hill
Wood
Ryu
Urias
Buehler
Otani

Strong 2019 outlook?
deGrom (who would be unseated in the coming years).
Otani with experience
Urias with experience
Buehler with experience
Hill (age 39 getting paid boku bucks)....yikes
Wood...

+ Jansen anchoring the pen and hoping we continue to find the Blantons and Morrows. More Morrow. Plus Maeda.
+ Seager, Cody, Taylor, and hopefully Harper/Machado.




I’m pretty sure I was against the years and money for Hill more than against Hill. Before the news of other suitors came out, I didn’t understand his deal and I thought (in the absence of news of other suitors) we bid against ourselves. No one ever objected to this line of thinking until Hill told reporters he had other suitors 2 weeks ago. Given that I wasnt aware of the other suitors, you can see how this contract looks dumb given his age, injury history, and our injured slew of pitchers. Plus, the optics looked bad to me given that we had just paid 3 prospects for him and Redick. None of this is short sighted AT ALL. It’s actually a full view and perspective of his deal starting from how he got here through all 3 years he is signed here. It’s also not like Hill is 200 IP pitcher that went over 5 innings at any point this October. He isn’t the strongest punch you have in this discussion tbh.

Question. If we weren’t paying him $16 million, would we have had room to take on Verlander’s deal at the deadline? (Note: I am not saying I was Team Verlander at the time).

Kershaw
Verlander
Wood/ Ryu
Ryu/ Wood

Yeah. In a world where the fake binary is Rich Hill or no Rich Hill, we are worse. In reality, we’d be looking for every way to get better if he wasn’t here.

The Dodgers are built to be good for a while but they have a perennial choke on the roster. You realize Stan built Atlanta - one ring. You realize he helped build Was. - no rings. Sustained success is great but if we aren’t going to have conviction on things other than the draft or int’l signings, then we might as well be robots and get comfortable with divisions and poor Octobers. You have conviction that guys like Utley help locker rooms but can’t see that all the twisting and turning we do from Kershaw keeps a LOSING element around. YOU and I both want these starts bad for Kershaw. Our guts sink when he fails. You think that type of thing is lost on Turner? Seager? Taylor?

Your perception of my all or nothing scenario is wrong. I never said we are in the same position as everyone. I mentioned BOTH ways that getting this close cuts - 2015 Royals who bounced back from a Game 7 loss and won it all and the Indians and Rangers who didn’t get back. I believe there’s more evidence that getting back is tougher. Hence, me saying all the teams I respect that I expect to get better.

My point is, I put no stock in being one game away. Teams get better. Injuries happen. One game away this year COULD BE 6 games away next year. So my approach to the Dodgers is to still get better in every way possible....les you want to stand pat and re-sign Yu Darvish because with him we were one game away. He was a part of our DS and CS success. Or should we evaluate him fairly and cut bait to get better?


_________

Nothing about his October resume or his back injuries is currently dependable.

Pretty wack to make a choking comparison of a 10 year vet to a rookie. Kershaw should be dragging Cody to a ring. Yet....we’re here...saying “nuh uh. It’s not Kershaw’s fault. The rookie messed up too.” We serious?





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